Fantastic to hear this discussion! My jaw dropped when Batya said:
“And to me, that was the Trump that we could have had if the other side did not declare war on him from the minute he got into office and just decided he was an illegitimate president, despite the fact that he won that first election in 2016 fairly. So I think there was a …
Fantastic to hear this discussion! My jaw dropped when Batya said:
“And to me, that was the Trump that we could have had if the other side did not declare war on him from the minute he got into office and just decided he was an illegitimate president, despite the fact that he won that first election in 2016 fairly. So I think there was a little bit of pathos for me watching it in that sense. “
I tried to have this exact discussion with others who oppose Trump to find that they can’t even countenance the mere suggestion there was a time to capture success in early 2017 and that Trump was sending signals of exactly this opportunity as his early executive orders were being rolled out.
Yet here we are dug in deeply on hypocritically condemning Trump for similar election results rejection that was gleefully accepted in 2016.
Until people want a prosperous future more than they want to feel better about themselves by standing in opposition to someone they don’t like being part of the solution, we are not going anywhere good.
Wouldn’t it have been interesting to see what Trump might have been able to accomplish had he not been “condemned & found guilty” the moment he came down the escalator at Trump Tower, 2015, to announce his run for President?!
"Until people want a prosperous future more than they want to feel better about themselves by standing in opposition to someone they don’t like being part of the solution, we are not going anywhere good."
The thing is, it takes no effort or sacrifice whatsoever to stand in opposition to something you don't like, but it takes both to take advantage of someone offering you the opportunity to better yourself. Americans have grown intellectually lazy and work-shy. They would rather be keyboard warriors than weekend warriors.
Well said. Too many forget how mad post Trump election was. That night the left media went ballistic. Trump defeated a career criminal who know one really likes (Hillary) yet he was the villain. And of the rest of 2017, 2018 I can remember waking to glance and doing the first glance at my iPhone and news feeds were shrill allegations against Trump. The guy makes me cringe with some of what he says, but to suggest he is the epicenter of the problem is moronic.
It is what the left needs you to believe to get their thesis to fly. They could not survive without some punching bag to divert peoples attentions when the discussions get to close to the thin reeds supporting their arguments.
Trump was a very good POTUS, but his sending a mob to the Capitol to persuade Mike Pence not to do his constitutional duty is both a crime and disqualifying. Knowledge of the Constitution and a willingness to follow it are prerequisites for the job.
Trump did not send a “mob” to DC to take down Pence. WE went because the 2020 election was stolen from Trump and we wanted to voice our concern. I am a 71 year ild white male with two university degrees and 40 years of running small businesses. You think I am. “Mob”? Fuck you liberal.
59 lawsuits alleging the election was stolen. Trump 0 Biden 59. Biden won by over 7 million votes. Get over it. And the Capitol on 1/6/21 was not a “peaceful petition”, it was an invading riot where police were assaulted merely defending the Capitol.
Well said. And I forget where I heard this recently. But someone posed the question how do we think the founding fathers would have reacted to the tyranny we have today? They would not have stood for it. And on January 6 at least people went to the seat of government to lodge their complaints. They didn’t burn down the local police station or loot their neighborhoods businesses. Big difference in how groups acted out their grievances, if in fact both were legitimate grievances.
That "mob" as you call it intended to go to the Capital all along.
And doesn't the Constitution guarantee the right of assembly (they had their permits) and the right to petition their government for redress of grievances?
Is a group of 300 or 400 people not allowed to so assemble, and go and petition?
Time, sir, for you to reread our Constitution, with particular attention paid to how presidents are elected/authenticated and to the first ten Amendments known as the Bill of Rights.
I don't care if a President is an asshole. If their policies are good and pro-American that's what I want. Biden is an asshole- awful policies. Obama, swell guy and supposedly charming- awful antj- American policies. If I want a nice guy I'll talk to my grandfather.
Problem is those of you who think that way are having amnesia how much drama Trump created every day during his presidency. Yes Trump Derangement Syndrome is real. But he was just as culpable. He trolled the libs every day on Twitter during his term. And tons of drama blew up within his circle regularly. No a day went by without some dumb shit or another that he starts himself to detract from his own agenda. He was a one man walking hurricane. You can say the Dems wouldn't "let" him on a lot of things, and that's not wrong. But he stoked the fire nonstop himself too because he craves the social media attention and his supporters back then were much more furious with the hand it to the libs attitude that blinded them.
Thank you! I live in Georgia, a state Trump has tried to destroy since he lost it in 2020. He's cost us three Senate races and did his best to take out Brian Kemp, the best governor we've had since I moved here in 1997.
Not only did Trump contribute to his failed agenda and failed reelection; his supporters did, too. Do you know how embarrassing it was, as someone who voted for Trump twice, to see the "Trump 2020: No More Bullshit" flag flown alongside the American flag? Trump and his diehard supporters behaved like insolent children during his presidency and the years following. It's time to take the plank out of their own eye before crying TDS at everyone else.
Pretty much correct, QX. Trump’s source of oxygen is to stroke his base incessantly and to stay in the media spotlight constantly, as true then as it is now. It doesn’t matter if the coverage is negative or positive as long as eyes are on him. The drama keeps him relevant to a large part of his base. He is a performer and they are his captive audience.
Maybe, but you forget that Comey "informed" him of the Steel dossier very early, knowing that it was unreliable, then leaked it to the press which had a field day with it. Trump would have known it was not true although he likely did not know the depths of the collusion related to it. I think he only got that dirt on that flight with Rob Rosenstein. So that explains his war with the press. And I like that he worked around them. He may have thought that it was the press that was out to get him. Many Americans do blame the press for the nation's decline. But while that is a factor it is not the cause. The cause is that we have unelected, unaccountable career bureaucrats in the executive branch alphabet agencies that are in power. They selected, not elected, selected, the last president and maybe the last two. They knew they could not control Trump so they preferred Biden. But they would be just as happy with Pence, Haley, Christie, DeSantis or other "experienced" candidates. Personally I think Haley and Pence are aware of it and see nothing wrong with it but rather would be satisfied with the illusion of power. IOW the wealth that comes along with it.
I think you are being far too kind about the unaccountable career bureaucrats. THEY are the clear-and-present danger to the the concept of limited, accountable federal government as outlined in our Constitution. You are accurate in your assessment the administrative state's view of Trump. Trump, to them, is pure poison.
I do not see them, however, of being accepting of any of the other candidates. The only question is just how vicious they might be for one of the others. The press will do their bidding; that's pretty much a given.
Maybe but I am trying to educate those unaware. It is a true Constitutional crisis. Unseen and not understood by the but-Trump-is-destroying-our-democracy. As the FBI et al run roughdhod over the Constitutional Republic. But I think the alphabet soup bureaucrats favor the weak - Republican or Democrat matters not so long as he or she is malleable.
QX, yes, TDS is real, and as I mentioned earlier, once “infected” the only cure is to destroy Trump.
And in lieu of Trump’s “one man walking drama” we traded down for Biden’s “one man stumbling, mumbling, also bringing us his BS drama”
Can’t we all agree it is time for someone, ANYONE rather than these two narcissistic men?
I’m not a Trump follower, but if it comes down to it (I pray it won’t!), BY GOD (sry to offend using the Lord’s name!), I would vote Trump and all his bloviating drama over Biden’s and his smug, snarky demented Liar in Chief
Trump does have an interesting style, LK - not understanding how state elections are certified, and that you just can’t change their results once they are.
How do you jump from me just pointing out Trump being his own enemy to denying the nation prosperity? Pointing out his part in his own mess doesn’t mean I support the Dems
The question that rolls around in my mind about the TDS folk is what did he do to them to make the hatred so visceral...
I have real problems finding a coherent explanation, let alone a reasoned one.
I can understand the opposition from the civil bureaucracy...That's simple...he's mucking around with the privileges that they have arrogated to themselves extra-legally.
But, for people outside of government, the food-fight between the president's office and the FBI field offices are under the radar. And even if they did know about it, I doubt that they general public would even care.
Unfortunately, TDS is a fact of our political life. It plays out daily in the halls of Congress and dominates the attention of "the press" or whatever they are calling themselves these days.
I am of the sense that without the irrational lengths which TDS layers over all aspects of our lives our system of government would work well. Certainly, the gears of government turn slowly, but they do turn.
It is coming time for those of us who have counseled tolerance and patience to begin to demand the promised results. If those results are not forthcoming, or if real progress is not being made, we must insist that the sunk costs are accepted and move on in different directions.
Political office holders should not go into their re-election campaigns with the presumption that they are going to be returned to office. We voters can foster this understanding.
Some years ago, the esteemed Editorial Board of the New York Time, once the chronicler of things American took an interesting position regarding the local and state political scene. It seems appropriate to resurrect it and put it in play in the 2024 elections...
Hey I don’t disagree with you. Maybe Vivek will run as a third party candidate assuming he won’t get the GOP nomination. He’s the only one with the money to fund his own run
In most states, once you've been on the Republican ballot, you can't run third party. Vivek may have a shot on the libertarian ticket if he doesn't wait too long.
Fantastic to hear this discussion! My jaw dropped when Batya said:
“And to me, that was the Trump that we could have had if the other side did not declare war on him from the minute he got into office and just decided he was an illegitimate president, despite the fact that he won that first election in 2016 fairly. So I think there was a little bit of pathos for me watching it in that sense. “
I tried to have this exact discussion with others who oppose Trump to find that they can’t even countenance the mere suggestion there was a time to capture success in early 2017 and that Trump was sending signals of exactly this opportunity as his early executive orders were being rolled out.
Yet here we are dug in deeply on hypocritically condemning Trump for similar election results rejection that was gleefully accepted in 2016.
Until people want a prosperous future more than they want to feel better about themselves by standing in opposition to someone they don’t like being part of the solution, we are not going anywhere good.
Gh, I totally agree!
Wouldn’t it have been interesting to see what Trump might have been able to accomplish had he not been “condemned & found guilty” the moment he came down the escalator at Trump Tower, 2015, to announce his run for President?!
Trump and MAGA were created by Hilary Clinton when she called his followers "Deplorables." At that moment they had a rallying point.
"Until people want a prosperous future more than they want to feel better about themselves by standing in opposition to someone they don’t like being part of the solution, we are not going anywhere good."
The thing is, it takes no effort or sacrifice whatsoever to stand in opposition to something you don't like, but it takes both to take advantage of someone offering you the opportunity to better yourself. Americans have grown intellectually lazy and work-shy. They would rather be keyboard warriors than weekend warriors.
Well said. Too many forget how mad post Trump election was. That night the left media went ballistic. Trump defeated a career criminal who know one really likes (Hillary) yet he was the villain. And of the rest of 2017, 2018 I can remember waking to glance and doing the first glance at my iPhone and news feeds were shrill allegations against Trump. The guy makes me cringe with some of what he says, but to suggest he is the epicenter of the problem is moronic.
I think one small red pill moment for me the last few years was the night Maddow had the “scoop” on the release of the trump tax returns.
I tuned in for it, and the resonating Thud was certainly an eye opener for me
It is what the left needs you to believe to get their thesis to fly. They could not survive without some punching bag to divert peoples attentions when the discussions get to close to the thin reeds supporting their arguments.
Trump was a very good POTUS, but his sending a mob to the Capitol to persuade Mike Pence not to do his constitutional duty is both a crime and disqualifying. Knowledge of the Constitution and a willingness to follow it are prerequisites for the job.
Trump did not send a “mob” to DC to take down Pence. WE went because the 2020 election was stolen from Trump and we wanted to voice our concern. I am a 71 year ild white male with two university degrees and 40 years of running small businesses. You think I am. “Mob”? Fuck you liberal.
59 lawsuits alleging the election was stolen. Trump 0 Biden 59. Biden won by over 7 million votes. Get over it. And the Capitol on 1/6/21 was not a “peaceful petition”, it was an invading riot where police were assaulted merely defending the Capitol.
Well, it did look slightly undisciplined..
An occasional motley crew.
Obligatory:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FONN-0uoTHI
Well said. And I forget where I heard this recently. But someone posed the question how do we think the founding fathers would have reacted to the tyranny we have today? They would not have stood for it. And on January 6 at least people went to the seat of government to lodge their complaints. They didn’t burn down the local police station or loot their neighborhoods businesses. Big difference in how groups acted out their grievances, if in fact both were legitimate grievances.
That "mob" as you call it intended to go to the Capital all along.
And doesn't the Constitution guarantee the right of assembly (they had their permits) and the right to petition their government for redress of grievances?
Is a group of 300 or 400 people not allowed to so assemble, and go and petition?
Time, sir, for you to reread our Constitution, with particular attention paid to how presidents are elected/authenticated and to the first ten Amendments known as the Bill of Rights.
Is breaking and entering and attacking people also part of the Constitution?
I think Pence folded like a limp noodle.
Pence, to me, is like an electron circling an atom...Positionally uncertain until actually measured...
Unfortunately, I can't see measuring Pence in our political molecule leads to anything worth talking about.
Trump Derangement Syndrome is real, it clouds the mind, and it's very dangerous. It was true back in 2016 and even more true today.
TDS and his total unsuitability for the job are not mutually exclusive. He’s an asshole. That’s not an excuse to lie about him.
I don't care if a President is an asshole. If their policies are good and pro-American that's what I want. Biden is an asshole- awful policies. Obama, swell guy and supposedly charming- awful antj- American policies. If I want a nice guy I'll talk to my grandfather.
JJoshua, TDS is like a virus and once infected there seems to be no cure, unless or until Trump is destroyed.
Problem is those of you who think that way are having amnesia how much drama Trump created every day during his presidency. Yes Trump Derangement Syndrome is real. But he was just as culpable. He trolled the libs every day on Twitter during his term. And tons of drama blew up within his circle regularly. No a day went by without some dumb shit or another that he starts himself to detract from his own agenda. He was a one man walking hurricane. You can say the Dems wouldn't "let" him on a lot of things, and that's not wrong. But he stoked the fire nonstop himself too because he craves the social media attention and his supporters back then were much more furious with the hand it to the libs attitude that blinded them.
Thank you! I live in Georgia, a state Trump has tried to destroy since he lost it in 2020. He's cost us three Senate races and did his best to take out Brian Kemp, the best governor we've had since I moved here in 1997.
Not only did Trump contribute to his failed agenda and failed reelection; his supporters did, too. Do you know how embarrassing it was, as someone who voted for Trump twice, to see the "Trump 2020: No More Bullshit" flag flown alongside the American flag? Trump and his diehard supporters behaved like insolent children during his presidency and the years following. It's time to take the plank out of their own eye before crying TDS at everyone else.
Pretty much correct, QX. Trump’s source of oxygen is to stroke his base incessantly and to stay in the media spotlight constantly, as true then as it is now. It doesn’t matter if the coverage is negative or positive as long as eyes are on him. The drama keeps him relevant to a large part of his base. He is a performer and they are his captive audience.
Maybe, but you forget that Comey "informed" him of the Steel dossier very early, knowing that it was unreliable, then leaked it to the press which had a field day with it. Trump would have known it was not true although he likely did not know the depths of the collusion related to it. I think he only got that dirt on that flight with Rob Rosenstein. So that explains his war with the press. And I like that he worked around them. He may have thought that it was the press that was out to get him. Many Americans do blame the press for the nation's decline. But while that is a factor it is not the cause. The cause is that we have unelected, unaccountable career bureaucrats in the executive branch alphabet agencies that are in power. They selected, not elected, selected, the last president and maybe the last two. They knew they could not control Trump so they preferred Biden. But they would be just as happy with Pence, Haley, Christie, DeSantis or other "experienced" candidates. Personally I think Haley and Pence are aware of it and see nothing wrong with it but rather would be satisfied with the illusion of power. IOW the wealth that comes along with it.
I think you are being far too kind about the unaccountable career bureaucrats. THEY are the clear-and-present danger to the the concept of limited, accountable federal government as outlined in our Constitution. You are accurate in your assessment the administrative state's view of Trump. Trump, to them, is pure poison.
I do not see them, however, of being accepting of any of the other candidates. The only question is just how vicious they might be for one of the others. The press will do their bidding; that's pretty much a given.
Maybe but I am trying to educate those unaware. It is a true Constitutional crisis. Unseen and not understood by the but-Trump-is-destroying-our-democracy. As the FBI et al run roughdhod over the Constitutional Republic. But I think the alphabet soup bureaucrats favor the weak - Republican or Democrat matters not so long as he or she is malleable.
Agree.
And the word is either manipulable or blackmailable.
I have more to say on this subject, too.
QX, yes, TDS is real, and as I mentioned earlier, once “infected” the only cure is to destroy Trump.
And in lieu of Trump’s “one man walking drama” we traded down for Biden’s “one man stumbling, mumbling, also bringing us his BS drama”
Can’t we all agree it is time for someone, ANYONE rather than these two narcissistic men?
I’m not a Trump follower, but if it comes down to it (I pray it won’t!), BY GOD (sry to offend using the Lord’s name!), I would vote Trump and all his bloviating drama over Biden’s and his smug, snarky demented Liar in Chief
So, you choose going to war with a president over his style, thereby denying the nation future prosperity.
How noble of you., sir, how truly noble
Trump does have an interesting style, LK - not understanding how state elections are certified, and that you just can’t change their results once they are.
How do you jump from me just pointing out Trump being his own enemy to denying the nation prosperity? Pointing out his part in his own mess doesn’t mean I support the Dems
Well stated, L.K.! Those infected with TDS would seemingly absolutely rather destroy our country, rather than elect Trump.
The question that rolls around in my mind about the TDS folk is what did he do to them to make the hatred so visceral...
I have real problems finding a coherent explanation, let alone a reasoned one.
I can understand the opposition from the civil bureaucracy...That's simple...he's mucking around with the privileges that they have arrogated to themselves extra-legally.
But, for people outside of government, the food-fight between the president's office and the FBI field offices are under the radar. And even if they did know about it, I doubt that they general public would even care.
Unfortunately, TDS is a fact of our political life. It plays out daily in the halls of Congress and dominates the attention of "the press" or whatever they are calling themselves these days.
I am of the sense that without the irrational lengths which TDS layers over all aspects of our lives our system of government would work well. Certainly, the gears of government turn slowly, but they do turn.
It is coming time for those of us who have counseled tolerance and patience to begin to demand the promised results. If those results are not forthcoming, or if real progress is not being made, we must insist that the sunk costs are accepted and move on in different directions.
Political office holders should not go into their re-election campaigns with the presumption that they are going to be returned to office. We voters can foster this understanding.
Some years ago, the esteemed Editorial Board of the New York Time, once the chronicler of things American took an interesting position regarding the local and state political scene. It seems appropriate to resurrect it and put it in play in the 2024 elections...
VOTE FOR ANYONE EXCEPT AN INCUMBENT !
Hey I don’t disagree with you. Maybe Vivek will run as a third party candidate assuming he won’t get the GOP nomination. He’s the only one with the money to fund his own run
In most states, once you've been on the Republican ballot, you can't run third party. Vivek may have a shot on the libertarian ticket if he doesn't wait too long.
That's an intriguing thought.
The fact that he could self-fund removes a HUGE obstacle to getting a third party going.
This mutant strain is even deadlier.