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I'm surprised all of you were so impressed by Haley's beacon of democracy approach to supporting a war that has very little relevance to American security, a war the US helped to provoke which has led to the death of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians, a war that's costing so much money to fund that will likely end where it was a year ago. This will be another war America lost, so why the heartfelt support of Haley?

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I concur. I think Haley is an excellent statesperson, but she is very much a neocon and a warmonger. She did a great job at the UN, I was turned off by her screeching and finger pointing at Vivek at the debate, as she lost her cool. But then, so did Pence.... he came unhinged!

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Aug 26, 2023·edited Aug 26, 2023

Many of the men on the stage were also yelling and pointing their fingers at Vivek, but when the woman does it, she is screeching? She was standing her ground and making her point. My take was that Haley thinks Vivek's foreign policies are dangerous. She has a husband in active duty (currently deployed overseas) and a son and son-in-law in their 20s who would be drafted, if we went to war. My guess is that she wants to avoid war. As the former UN ambassador, she probably has more insight into the foreign/political workings than we average citizens.

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Yes, she was screeching. And she is pretty clearly a sexist. Loaded gun with bullets of misandrist bias. “You want something done? Ask a woman.” Flip the gender roles in that line and women, feminists, and the Left would be howling with rage. Nikki? Not a peep. Plus she really is a neocon warmonger. Completely owned by the MIC. Smart, quick, articulate. But she’s a pawn of the Pentagon.

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I agree with you, minus the "screeching." While I disagreed with virtually everything Haley said on foreign policy, she was forceful and well-spoken.

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And the previous crack about high heels.

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If a man is forceful, he is a leader. If a woman is forceful she is a bitch. I think it is time we had a woman as president.

The Iron Lady, Margret Thatcher was a great PM as was Golda Meir.

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founding

Be careful what you wish for, Lonesome, else we’ll be listening to Hillary screeching or Kamala cackling for 4 years!

(wink)

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I don't vote for the most qualified which is a myth. I vote for that one that will do the least damage.

Elections are a side show, kabuki Theater, to give the illusion of a democracy at work. All we are doing is moving the lying, scum sucking, thieves around the board. They are politicians. As the actor Rip Torn said in one of immemorable movies, "The only thing lower than a politician is a child molester." I'm not sure he was right. I think they are on a par with a child molester and the child molester may have a slight edge.

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Honey, you know me. I will never vote for a Dem/SOC.

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Is it just me or does anyone else find it curious that the same cohort (mostly single women) who castigatedTrumps in your face style are defending Haley’s?

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If that woman was Condaleeza Rice, I'd like that.

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Condoleza Rice was too sensible to want to be POTUS. She really wanted to be NFL commissioner.

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Who could blame her?

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If Taylor Swift ran, she'd have the whole female under 30 vote.

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Except she's a pop singer not a politician and has no desire to run for office.. Plus she's doing just fine making millions singing

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I would love to have a female president, if that female is Tulsi Gabbard.

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I like Tulsi too.

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I'm warming up to both Vivek and RFK, Jr., but I would drop them both in a heartbeat if Tulsi entered the race.

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Margaret Thatcher never raised her voice but had great presence and authority. She was forceful without being strident.....as I imagine someone like Condoleeza would be. Now THAT's my role model for a female president!

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Me too. I am a big fan but she is too smart and honest to run for president. The best and the brightest don't run for office. They are out doing real work.

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Hear! Hear!

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Yes, please note that I mentioned that Pence became unhinged. Please see other posters here linking to new info in regard to her affiliation with MIC.

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I agree, Nikki did an excellent job taking down Vivek for his stupidity on foreign policy. At the same time, I don’t 100% agree with her approach on the current conflict, but I will always appreciate her tenacity and resolve.

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Vivek is Obama 2.0

No thanks

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Why do you say that? Because of his brown, not orange skin?

Obama. 2.0? Nah, you got things wrong. Biden’s administration is Obama 2.0.

Vivek is gonna own Nikki and the rest of that field. Trump, too.

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NOTHING at ALL to do with his color. Gosh!

His mannerisms. His Tone. His high brow oration.

He's backed by the RNC that should tell you everything you need to know. The Uniparty.

Vivek may be the best of the bunch, but he's not the best. He's more of the same.

None of them stand a chance - not even Trump or RFK.

The Uniparty has already selected our next President - Gavin Newsom will replace Biden when the time comes and we will like it. HA!

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such a depressing thought!

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God NO Newsome 🙏 Californians are split no ?

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No one is going to be drafted.

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If she didn’t want war she’d be advocating for peace not escalation. Vivek is the one calling for peace.

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Sometimes war is the least bad option. Sometimes burning your own house down is the least bad response to a home invasion, particularly when the alternative is that your family is raped and/or enslaved and/or murdered.

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You should read how much she and her husband have profited from the military industrial complex big bucks. Disgusting.

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Who hasn’t though in politics NC.

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Well let's not elect anyone with that conflict of interest because that is what it is.

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It appears Vivek's "conflicts of interest" are minimal. While he was a little too full of himself in the debate for me, he played it exceptionally well for someone needing name recognition. I listen to his interviews with Jordan Peterson, and he certainly appears sincere and, most important, an independent thinker. As he says, he is "MAGA 2.0." He may be a more effective bull in a china shop because his personality will not put off so many people.

I have hope he will continue as genuine and authentic because his understanding of the woke threat, articulation of it, and his solutions to it, put him above the other candidates in many ways. Regardless of the final outcome, he is educating millions on the woke crime syndicate.

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I was referencing those who have profited from the MIC. I like what he has to say and I note the attacks began immediately after the debate -he is Big Pharma, he is Soros funded, he is Davos/WEF crowd - so he must be perceived as a threat to someone. My money is on McConnell and his crowd. That being said I do not think he is either experienced or mature enough to take on the DC swamp critters. I do hope he has a role in a Republican administration to gain that experience though. If not I would definitely like to see him in Congress - House or Senate. I think one of Trump's problems was that he did not understand what he was up against in DC.

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"Woke" is a made up issue, a catch phrase for everything one doesn't like. I've yet to read anyone's writing or commenting who uses the word in it's intended meaning. Are they all ignorant of the meaning or just usurping it for political purposes? Only people or animals can be "woke." Things can't be aware.

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Franklin O'Kanu

Writes Unorthodoxy

just now

So this is what I mean when I say we have to be mindful that politicians ultimately still support Big Corporations and Oligarchs, even though the claim to be "for the people." Princeton University confirmed America is an oligarch a few years ago:

https://www.businessinsider.com/major-study-finds-that-the-us-is-an-oligarchy-2014-4

And here are the examples that we see of that:

- Haley: Supports Ukraine War

- Vivek: Big Pharma

- RFK Jr: Climate Change

I could go on and on, but at the end of the day, these politicians, yes, speak to what we, the people are going with, but they also have to ensure that their lobbyist and donors are listening. Which is why ultimately, we are selecting "the lesser of two evils... which happens to still be EVIL."

Hmm, Think I'll write a post about this:

https://unorthodoxy.substack.com/

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RFK Jr. does not support the climate orthodoxy being pedaled by the globalists/WEF. In fact, he is generally unpopular amongst the lobbyist/donor class because they are mostly crony corporatists and his whole career has been trying to hold corporations (and their federal agency enablers) to account for their corruption. RFK Jr. *does* believe we are screwing up the environment, but he is not obsessed with carbon emissions and he doesn't believe the solutions involve trampling the people and their rights. He believes in responsible stewardship and conservation and making sure that industries are financially accountable for the harms they impose. That's a very common sense angle.

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founding

Good points, Franklin! I only take a couple exceptions. Vivek being in “Big Pharma” pocket. Yes, it certainly contributed to his wealth, but in my humble opinion he isn’t controlled or beholden to it. Plus, he isn’t “in bed” with big donors (yet?). His wealth sets him apart from being like the others in the debate a “bought & paid for politician”. Trump had this going for him, as well.

RFK Jr., being a longtime environmental lawyer, like SO MANY others, does have seemingly “passionate” beliefs about the climate + other debatable topics; however, like Vivek (and Trump) he stands up for & is very vocal about what is tearing America down i.e. the economy, open borders, WAR, Big Tech, Big Pharma, etc.!

Although I don’t believe either Vivek or RFK Jr. have “a snowballs chance in hell” to win the election, they seem to be the ONLY TWO who talk about the need to address and BRIDGE THE DIVIDE that is only wider & deeper btw the Biden & Trump supporters.

NOTE: to my last statement. I honestly don’t think Biden has devoted supporters like Trump has. Biden is just the stand-in puppet (at this point it’s more like a PROP UP puppet) being manipulated by the Democrat Puppet Handlers to implement their WOKE agenda. The Left doesn’t criticize Biden for all his fu*k ups bc he’s doing exactly what he’s told to do, which is STAY away from the White House as much as possible ✔️ and keep your mouth shut as much as possible✔️

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You go girl! Everything you say in your note about Biden is 💯! How in the world the average Democrat voter doesn’t get this (i.e. Bari and her panel) is beyond me. But maybe they do and just don’t care; oh and I’m sure they don’t consider themselves AVERAGE, my bad.

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One of the most annoying comments to me in the "analysis" by the FP's "experts" is the takeaway that somehow Biden was one of the winners of this debate. When coupled with his disastrous Maui speech, even the worst performer on this stage looks better than Biden.

Well...except for maybe Pence

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Just to clarify, Vivek is not "big pharma"

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Yes, Pence lost it.

He was so condescending too.

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He came across as a self righteous country club Republican our of their seventies. And again why would we trust anyone in politics their whole life.

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Condescending too. Yes I agree.

This really is a class struggle.

The establishment Washington DC elites vs the rest of the country.

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The rest of the non-elite country.

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Aug 27, 2023·edited Aug 27, 2023

J - You might too if thousands of people came to hang you..

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We have to accept that a significant portion of the electorate are single issue voters. If a candidate says they are personally pro life but kind of sort of okay with abortion with limits, it is music to the ears of the abortion voters on the left. No matter that the candidate is cheerleading for the proxy war which has done little except cause mass destruction, mass casualties, mass mutilation and added more countries to the growing list of enemies of the US. Not to mention she has a financial stake in the defense industry that profits from war.

As much as the FP praises Haley for standing up for women’s issues and the sentiment of how great it would be to have a woman president (is it okay to say ‘woman’? Just checking) they wouldn’t be caught dead voting for anything but a Democrat. Haley’s candidacy will quickly fade and not one registered Democrat will give a healthy bowel movement about it.

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Totally agree.

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Nikki Haley is a war profiteer. She loves war not for the moral reasons she claims, but because she's making money hand over fist. Lee Fang documents how much money she's made through her ties to the defense industry on his Substack, which I recommend. If Haley were to somehow get the nomination, I will vote 3rd party.

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I saw that article. She strikes me as an all out war monger of the sort that spells ruin for everyone but the arms industry.

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Don’t they all Peter?

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founding

That’s just cynical. In WWII, the U.S. “arsenal of democracy” made us the richest nation on earth, but that’s not why we were in the fight. Correlation is not causation.

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founding

Good points, John, but I think you err on a minor point: we could be--and were--the arsenal of democracy precisely ~because~ we were already the richest nation on the planet. There were plenty of "dollar a year men" during WW II--men who served for free at jobs they could have made enormous sums of money running. [Details in the very well-written and documented "Freedom's Forge" by Arthur Herman.] The isolationists were all over them, too, not for profiteering, but for being warmongers. I have to assume that they--the isolationists--wanted to learn to speak, read, and write Japanese and German.

Bottom line is that there are people who will attack those whose missions they dislike. Even if that mission is saving the country and winning a war that someone else started. Like today, notice that no one left the United States because we were in WW II. No one, except those who fought for us. The current breed of protesters are like unruly children who, not getting their way, throw tantrums.

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Love Lee Fang! Glenn Greenwald's expose is also worth watching.

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Is strengthening and enboldening Russia/China alliance a good alternative for us?

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I don't think China wants to be a great ally of Russia. It has its own interests to develop and probably does't mind that both the US and Russia are weakening themselves in this dumb war. What doesn't get reported a lot is that most of the world supports neither the US or Russia in Ukraine. They just want to get on with it. The development of BRIC shows that US economic hegemony is being challenged. The US should respond by strengthening itself at home rather than deluding itself into thinking whatever it does is for the benefit of spreading democracy.

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Agree. However, China will align with Russia even if for a short term to drop that association later, once it is no longer necessary.

Hitler and Stalin played similar games.

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Clear thinking here today Peter. Batya as well, the only woman on the panel with common sense, the rest all suffering TDS.

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BRIC is interesting in that Putin can’t go to their meetings for fear of being held for war crimes. A small detail..

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I agree with this except I think China sees the US as its modern enemy, while Russia has been its traditional enemy. I think China will play nice with Russia for the time being to assault US hegemony

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PeterM. You should have stopped at think. China IS an ally of Russia.

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Temporarily for mutual benefits.

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This is such a neocon way to see the world. There’s no nuance or focus on geopolitical realities, just “you want bad guy get stronger?”

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Looks like the war in Ukraine is doing that quite well.

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She’s smart, knowledgeable, succinct, and above all wants to unite America. She managed to get the confederate flag removed from the S.C capitol in a compassionate and respectful manner with her constituents. Haley 2024🇺🇸

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Nah. No charisma. Plus she’s a finger pointing know-it-all like Hillary Clinton. Vivek? He’s the Loki of the Republican Party, which is to say Republican while it benefits him. Pence didn’t connect the first time and doesn’t now because he leans too heavily on a Greater Power to do the thinking for him… Christie? Opportunistic, undisciplined bully without scruples or loyalty. Burgum? Seems like a good guy but really, too little, too late. Scott? Where’s the policy? Despite five important committee assignments all he talks about is the Right to Life issue. (Ps. He’s been in the Senate for 10 years!) Asa Hutchinson has been kicking around the halls of power for years. He’s a conservative evangelical and graduated from Bob Jones University in South Carolina. This background makes him unelectable in the same way Pence is unelectable. Also, he is 73 years old… Speaking of old, Trump is 77 this year! That means that like Biden, Trump would be 80 in his third year of office… Too old! That leaves DeSantis. This is one hardworking self made man. From an Italian working class background, his is a classic American success story: baseball, public schools, military, Ivy League. He had to work hard and impress a lot of people along the way to get to where he is. And he did. His debate performance was lackluster to be sure but you know that if he chose to that he could eat the other candidates’ lunch. In other words don’t underestimate him. He has my vote.

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I thought he did well in the debate, despite what all the liberal commentators say. He spoke forcefully and clearly and made good points. All the "experts" want him to attack Trump, but none of these candidates are going to beat Trump. DeSantis' mission is to stay in second place while doing nothing to offend the Trump base for the general election, and then be the fallback choice if something takes Trump out of the race.

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I have been screaming “fire your campaign manager” at him (through my phone/TV of course) for months!! DeSantis needs to campaign on his many accomplishments and never use the word “woke” again.

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" DeSantis. This is one hardworking self made man. From an Italian working class background, his is a classic American success story: baseball, public schools, military, Ivy League. He had to work hard and impress a lot of people along the way to get to where he is. And he did. His debate performance was lackluster to be sure but you know that if he chose to that he could eat the other candidates’ lunch. In other words don’t underestimate him. He has my vote."

I agree 100% He is not some Bush family member. And, I am not looking for charisma in a president. DeSantis knows how to get things done and he has the right policies. Just look at FL.

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Right, "just look at Florida." The highest inflation in the US, the highest home and auto insurance in the US, a Gov. who decides what will be taught and not taught in schools, a man who has alienated the Black and under 30 voters. Ain't gonna happen, Bubba.

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Gee, no one has called me "Bubba" before :)

I think Florida is thriving. People have moved to that state in large numbers and have been leaving crime ridden CA. (Maybe we should have a clear choice of Newsom v. DeSantis for president.) DeSantis turned FL from purple to red. I was historically an Independent but I will not vote for a D right now as they are all in with the new state religion surrounding "Gender". We need to get it out of all of the state schools under Separation of Church and State. The party has tanked with Identity Politics. Clinton was the last good D president.

Please see https://www.thetruthfairy.info/p/little-miss-trouble

"Gender Ideology is a fundamentalist religion—intolerant, demanding strict adherence to doctrine, hell-bent on gathering proselytes.

Induction into this religion begins with a baptism: the selection of pronouns and often a new name, greeted with all the celebration (and more) of a conversion. It evangelizes aggressively: through social media influencers, who claim to know a teen’s truest self better than her parents and to love that teen so much more than they ever could. Therapists, teachers, and school counselors play evangelist to numberless kids at American school.

There’s no physical evidence that any of us possesses an ethereal gender identity, of course. It may actually be disprovable; there is a good deal of evidence against it. No matter. The adherents take it on faith. The notion that each of us is born with a gender identity, utterly separable from our physiology, known only to us, imagines gender identity as the secular version of the ‘soul.’"

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" Except for "Florida thriving, I have no argument with the rest of what you wrote. My friends in Florida don't think it's thriving.

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Folks, please drop the "too old" moniker for Trump. His mind is quite young and energetic, as well as his physical stamina and attention to many details at one time. Is Trump perfect for all, no. His first job as stated to tucker: "close the border". I am in agreement, as many of our current national and future world problems are attributable to the current state of open borders around the world. Drop the excuse of "we have a broken border policy". that is BS. What is broken is Biden and his gang are not enforcing current laws/policy, and no one is able to hold them accountable.

Look at Arizona putting up old containers to close holes in the wall, and the us GOVT making them remove those. Now it is Texas putting up floating barriers and the US Govt is taking Texas to court (and btw, screw Mexico for being upset at Texas).

Rich

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Oh, and I forgot, Biden and his cronies selling off $250-300mil of Trump's usable border fence to Canada! shit what are they doing with it? Too good a deal to pass up for 2cents on the dollar. What an idiot in the WH today.

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Since you brought up Canada. I recently re-entered the US by boat in the San Juan Islands. The CBP office at Roche Harbor is unmanned and you need to use an app. There can be a remote interview but that is it. I was grilled about bringing eggs into the country though and lectured about not using the app as soon as we hit US waters (about 10 miles away, if that). The app was buggy and theHomeland Security website of little to know value. I know this because I am law-abiding and did my best to educate myself thereon. Meanwhile down south I could have ditched my passport, waded the Rio, said I was a refugee and been carrying tuberculosis, chaga disease, HIV or other pathogens and been welcomed with open arms.

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Under other circumstances, Haley would be a real contender. She's a smart woman with the ability to state things as they are. But she's not at the level of the things are happening now.

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Nope she is not and neither is there any other woman to fill the position of President at the moment. If the Dems carry on with Kamala it will be the death knell of their campaign for 2024.

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I would be very interested if Tulsi Gabbard jumped into the race. She was my preferred candidate in 2020. But I don't think she will. And I don't blame her.

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Tulsi a terrific lady I agree but Presidential I’m not sure Celia.

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Could you give an English translation of your second sentence?

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PeterM

Unlike you, we can see beyond the end of our noses. Provoked my Ass. Some of us have read Stephen Kotkin’s history of Russian imperialism. Have you even heard of him?

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I've heard of him. I'll consider your position if you can tell me if the US would have acted any differently if Mexico or Canada elected or was taken over by a hostile foreign power.

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Canada and Mexico do not have a history of imperialism. Kotkin is America’s foremost expert on Russian imperialism. You should educate yourself.,

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I have mentioned this before but reading that Kotkin is a" foremost expert"who will educate us all on the history of Russian imperialism, I will mention it again . At a Death Club meeting,one attendee said he liked the group because there were "no experts" in it.

Having lived a long time through the FDR years up to the Biden years , I look around with my non-expert eye and wonder if things didn't start going downhill when the Expert class decided it was their job to educate all of us

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There's so much evidence of this just by looking around at the state of the US and much of the western world. We've never been so educated!

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We've been taught, not educated.

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Answer the ruddy question and stop deflecting. You ought to know by now the only way your kak will fly is if you make a cogent argument. This audience is fed up to the back teeth with forever wars when their country is falling apart for lack of investment at home. And I'm not talking money; I'm talking about leaders investing time and effort in their people and their nation.

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Another brain with common sense today thank you.

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I have listened to a lot of Kotkin. He knows a lot about Stalin, USSR, the Russian mind set, and its long relationship with Ukraine. He takes the position that countries should be free to choose to join NATO without regard to what Russia thinks or whether it makes Russia feel threatened. That is one view point. Not everyone would agree with that. Something about treaties…

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Yes, it would be great if all countries were free to choose their destiny, but this is a fairy tale view of the world and its history. The US has as much as any country disrespected this right over the past century.

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Man Canada is a British satellite to this day and the Brits wrote the modern book on imperialism. Mexico has Spain in its history. Spain was imperial in every way but name.

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Because she is a woman and these women love to find a woman who they can stand behind. That’s it.

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There should be a full stop after "stand."

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Bari called herself an "unrepentant Neocon."

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We can’t afford to let the Russians win in Ukraine. The Russian government will continue trying to rebuild the Soviet empire until stopped. At some point they would attack a country nobody in the USA can ignore.

From the Ukrainian point of view this is a home invasion. They either defeat the Russians, or their families will be raped and murdered.

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I concur. I think she is a Liz Cheney.

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Totally agree. And folks should expand their horizon and look at how this war was fomented by us with our meddling in Ukraine and taunting Russia w expansion of NATO. Yes Putin is a brutal thug. But the world is full of them. Biden for example.

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Let me help you: because it’s the right thing to do. I’ve just re-read Strange Victory by Ernest May (about the Battle for France in May 1940). The lessons from then (&from Saddam Hussein) are still pertinent: if we (& by “we” I mean all people who believe in sovereign borders and being allowed to live their lives in peace) don’t stop Putin, he will keep going just as Hitler did. So yes, Ukraine has EVERYTHING to do with American security and no, the US did not provoke Putin, he did this all by himself.

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Aug 30, 2023·edited Aug 30, 2023

It’s hard to respond to such a simplistic description of this war. Do some research into recent Ukrainian history and you’ll find there are two sides to this tragic situation.

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founding

They should call it ‘Gain Of Democracy Research’.

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Bang on.

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Fantastic to hear this discussion! My jaw dropped when Batya said:

“And to me, that was the Trump that we could have had if the other side did not declare war on him from the minute he got into office and just decided he was an illegitimate president, despite the fact that he won that first election in 2016 fairly. So I think there was a little bit of pathos for me watching it in that sense. “

I tried to have this exact discussion with others who oppose Trump to find that they can’t even countenance the mere suggestion there was a time to capture success in early 2017 and that Trump was sending signals of exactly this opportunity as his early executive orders were being rolled out.

Yet here we are dug in deeply on hypocritically condemning Trump for similar election results rejection that was gleefully accepted in 2016.

Until people want a prosperous future more than they want to feel better about themselves by standing in opposition to someone they don’t like being part of the solution, we are not going anywhere good.

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Trump Derangement Syndrome is real, it clouds the mind, and it's very dangerous. It was true back in 2016 and even more true today.

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Problem is those of you who think that way are having amnesia how much drama Trump created every day during his presidency. Yes Trump Derangement Syndrome is real. But he was just as culpable. He trolled the libs every day on Twitter during his term. And tons of drama blew up within his circle regularly. No a day went by without some dumb shit or another that he starts himself to detract from his own agenda. He was a one man walking hurricane. You can say the Dems wouldn't "let" him on a lot of things, and that's not wrong. But he stoked the fire nonstop himself too because he craves the social media attention and his supporters back then were much more furious with the hand it to the libs attitude that blinded them.

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So, you choose going to war with a president over his style, thereby denying the nation future prosperity.

How noble of you., sir, how truly noble

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founding

Well stated, L.K.! Those infected with TDS would seemingly absolutely rather destroy our country, rather than elect Trump.

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The question that rolls around in my mind about the TDS folk is what did he do to them to make the hatred so visceral...

I have real problems finding a coherent explanation, let alone a reasoned one.

I can understand the opposition from the civil bureaucracy...That's simple...he's mucking around with the privileges that they have arrogated to themselves extra-legally.

But, for people outside of government, the food-fight between the president's office and the FBI field offices are under the radar. And even if they did know about it, I doubt that they general public would even care.

Unfortunately, TDS is a fact of our political life. It plays out daily in the halls of Congress and dominates the attention of "the press" or whatever they are calling themselves these days.

I am of the sense that without the irrational lengths which TDS layers over all aspects of our lives our system of government would work well. Certainly, the gears of government turn slowly, but they do turn.

It is coming time for those of us who have counseled tolerance and patience to begin to demand the promised results. If those results are not forthcoming, or if real progress is not being made, we must insist that the sunk costs are accepted and move on in different directions.

Political office holders should not go into their re-election campaigns with the presumption that they are going to be returned to office. We voters can foster this understanding.

Some years ago, the esteemed Editorial Board of the New York Time, once the chronicler of things American took an interesting position regarding the local and state political scene. It seems appropriate to resurrect it and put it in play in the 2024 elections...

VOTE FOR ANYONE EXCEPT AN INCUMBENT !

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Hey I don’t disagree with you. Maybe Vivek will run as a third party candidate assuming he won’t get the GOP nomination. He’s the only one with the money to fund his own run

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How do you jump from me just pointing out Trump being his own enemy to denying the nation prosperity? Pointing out his part in his own mess doesn’t mean I support the Dems

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Trump does have an interesting style, LK - not understanding how state elections are certified, and that you just can’t change their results once they are.

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founding

QX, yes, TDS is real, and as I mentioned earlier, once “infected” the only cure is to destroy Trump.

And in lieu of Trump’s “one man walking drama” we traded down for Biden’s “one man stumbling, mumbling, also bringing us his BS drama”

Can’t we all agree it is time for someone, ANYONE rather than these two narcissistic men?

I’m not a Trump follower, but if it comes down to it (I pray it won’t!), BY GOD (sry to offend using the Lord’s name!), I would vote Trump and all his bloviating drama over Biden’s and his smug, snarky demented Liar in Chief

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Maybe, but you forget that Comey "informed" him of the Steel dossier very early, knowing that it was unreliable, then leaked it to the press which had a field day with it. Trump would have known it was not true although he likely did not know the depths of the collusion related to it. I think he only got that dirt on that flight with Rob Rosenstein. So that explains his war with the press. And I like that he worked around them. He may have thought that it was the press that was out to get him. Many Americans do blame the press for the nation's decline. But while that is a factor it is not the cause. The cause is that we have unelected, unaccountable career bureaucrats in the executive branch alphabet agencies that are in power. They selected, not elected, selected, the last president and maybe the last two. They knew they could not control Trump so they preferred Biden. But they would be just as happy with Pence, Haley, Christie, DeSantis or other "experienced" candidates. Personally I think Haley and Pence are aware of it and see nothing wrong with it but rather would be satisfied with the illusion of power. IOW the wealth that comes along with it.

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I think you are being far too kind about the unaccountable career bureaucrats. THEY are the clear-and-present danger to the the concept of limited, accountable federal government as outlined in our Constitution. You are accurate in your assessment the administrative state's view of Trump. Trump, to them, is pure poison.

I do not see them, however, of being accepting of any of the other candidates. The only question is just how vicious they might be for one of the others. The press will do their bidding; that's pretty much a given.

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Maybe but I am trying to educate those unaware. It is a true Constitutional crisis. Unseen and not understood by the but-Trump-is-destroying-our-democracy. As the FBI et al run roughdhod over the Constitutional Republic. But I think the alphabet soup bureaucrats favor the weak - Republican or Democrat matters not so long as he or she is malleable.

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Agree.

And the word is either manipulable or blackmailable.

I have more to say on this subject, too.

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Thank you! I live in Georgia, a state Trump has tried to destroy since he lost it in 2020. He's cost us three Senate races and did his best to take out Brian Kemp, the best governor we've had since I moved here in 1997.

Not only did Trump contribute to his failed agenda and failed reelection; his supporters did, too. Do you know how embarrassing it was, as someone who voted for Trump twice, to see the "Trump 2020: No More Bullshit" flag flown alongside the American flag? Trump and his diehard supporters behaved like insolent children during his presidency and the years following. It's time to take the plank out of their own eye before crying TDS at everyone else.

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Pretty much correct, QX. Trump’s source of oxygen is to stroke his base incessantly and to stay in the media spotlight constantly, as true then as it is now. It doesn’t matter if the coverage is negative or positive as long as eyes are on him. The drama keeps him relevant to a large part of his base. He is a performer and they are his captive audience.

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This mutant strain is even deadlier.

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founding

JJoshua, TDS is like a virus and once infected there seems to be no cure, unless or until Trump is destroyed.

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TDS and his total unsuitability for the job are not mutually exclusive. He’s an asshole. That’s not an excuse to lie about him.

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I don't care if a President is an asshole. If their policies are good and pro-American that's what I want. Biden is an asshole- awful policies. Obama, swell guy and supposedly charming- awful antj- American policies. If I want a nice guy I'll talk to my grandfather.

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Well said. Too many forget how mad post Trump election was. That night the left media went ballistic. Trump defeated a career criminal who know one really likes (Hillary) yet he was the villain. And of the rest of 2017, 2018 I can remember waking to glance and doing the first glance at my iPhone and news feeds were shrill allegations against Trump. The guy makes me cringe with some of what he says, but to suggest he is the epicenter of the problem is moronic.

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It is what the left needs you to believe to get their thesis to fly. They could not survive without some punching bag to divert peoples attentions when the discussions get to close to the thin reeds supporting their arguments.

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I think one small red pill moment for me the last few years was the night Maddow had the “scoop” on the release of the trump tax returns.

I tuned in for it, and the resonating Thud was certainly an eye opener for me

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Trump was a very good POTUS, but his sending a mob to the Capitol to persuade Mike Pence not to do his constitutional duty is both a crime and disqualifying. Knowledge of the Constitution and a willingness to follow it are prerequisites for the job.

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That "mob" as you call it intended to go to the Capital all along.

And doesn't the Constitution guarantee the right of assembly (they had their permits) and the right to petition their government for redress of grievances?

Is a group of 300 or 400 people not allowed to so assemble, and go and petition?

Time, sir, for you to reread our Constitution, with particular attention paid to how presidents are elected/authenticated and to the first ten Amendments known as the Bill of Rights.

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I think Pence folded like a limp noodle.

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Pence, to me, is like an electron circling an atom...Positionally uncertain until actually measured...

Unfortunately, I can't see measuring Pence in our political molecule leads to anything worth talking about.

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Is breaking and entering and attacking people also part of the Constitution?

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Trump did not send a “mob” to DC to take down Pence. WE went because the 2020 election was stolen from Trump and we wanted to voice our concern. I am a 71 year ild white male with two university degrees and 40 years of running small businesses. You think I am. “Mob”? Fuck you liberal.

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Well said. And I forget where I heard this recently. But someone posed the question how do we think the founding fathers would have reacted to the tyranny we have today? They would not have stood for it. And on January 6 at least people went to the seat of government to lodge their complaints. They didn’t burn down the local police station or loot their neighborhoods businesses. Big difference in how groups acted out their grievances, if in fact both were legitimate grievances.

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59 lawsuits alleging the election was stolen. Trump 0 Biden 59. Biden won by over 7 million votes. Get over it. And the Capitol on 1/6/21 was not a “peaceful petition”, it was an invading riot where police were assaulted merely defending the Capitol.

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Well, it did look slightly undisciplined..

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"Until people want a prosperous future more than they want to feel better about themselves by standing in opposition to someone they don’t like being part of the solution, we are not going anywhere good."

The thing is, it takes no effort or sacrifice whatsoever to stand in opposition to something you don't like, but it takes both to take advantage of someone offering you the opportunity to better yourself. Americans have grown intellectually lazy and work-shy. They would rather be keyboard warriors than weekend warriors.

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founding

Gh, I totally agree!

Wouldn’t it have been interesting to see what Trump might have been able to accomplish had he not been “condemned & found guilty” the moment he came down the escalator at Trump Tower, 2015, to announce his run for President?!

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Trump and MAGA were created by Hilary Clinton when she called his followers "Deplorables." At that moment they had a rallying point.

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Interesting convo, but like Btrett and Martha, you all missed the most important issue: the weaponization of the justice system against, not only Trump, but his supporters as well. After launcing an unprecedented spying campaign from 2015 all the way through Trump's tem (re: Hunter laptop as Russian disinfo)-a campaign that was truly seditious in the oldest sense of the term, no one was held accountable. And now it's Trump being targeted again by his opponent and a gaggle of Dem prosecutors. Not to mention the Jan 6 defendents whose rights-if the were violated for other "protesters" would lead to Defcon 1. This is why there is such fervent support. People see this for what it is and aour fed up. If Republicans can't stand up-forget Trump-against this weaponization, they will become its perpetual victims.

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A President ALONE can't cant change things. The Republicans who control the House now need to grow some balls and better start doing something. The longer they wait the worse this will get

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POTUS can certainly clean house on the Executive branch and make significant changes on personnel and policy.

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Sadly, Trump was not able to.

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Aug 26, 2023·edited Aug 26, 2023

He made significant policy changes, but his biggest mistake was not cleaning out the senior officials at DOJ/FBI.

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Oh the intelligence agencies are culpable too. This really grows out of creation of the Department of Homeland Security and tearing down the wall between foreign intelligence and domestic law enforcement. Now we have intelligence personnel who think they are cops and law enforcement personnel who think they are covert operators. Not good. So not good.

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Excellent point.

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That and also Trump was frequently backstabbed/betrayed by people in his staff/Cabinet, which made it harder to get stuff done. There was constant "leaking" of information to the press & frequent firings of staff, high turn around. Every week someone was fired. In & out.

One of Trump's not good qualities is he is extremely susceptible to flattery, so people manipulate him all the time. Including his staff who lied to him. Including Kim Jong Il, Xi Jinping, Putin, etc.

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If elected. I’m confident that Trump will fire the entire lot of the senior leadership in the various alphabet soup that makes up the Executive Branch.

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That and his infamous permanent tax cuts for the rich, i.e. himself.

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Hamstrung from the beginning of his presidency to the end by the DOJ/FBI and internal GOP establishment moles (Rience Priebus, John Kelly, Dan Coats, etc.). Every move he made was scrutinized by those hoping to create charges by a Special Counsel or an Impeachment. John Kelly bragging about not giving Trump all the information to push his own agenda, Dan Coats playing defense for the Intelligence community so Trump couldn't declassify documents. Rodney Jaffe, Darpa and the vacuuming of all the White House Comms through their servers that Jaffe's company was in charge of maintaining. You can bet your ass if Trump gets back in, he's well aware of all their dirty tricks and will clean house. They are scared to death of a Trump presidency that is now fully aware of what they did and are doing, I can't wait and it looks like there are a lot of others that feel the same.

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He will clean house BUT will hire people who will trick him & pull the same stunts.

I like Trump for many reasons but one of Trump's not good qualities is he is extremely susceptible to flattery, so people manipulate him all the time. Including his staff who lied to him. Including Kim Jong Il, Xi Jinping, Putin, etc.

Trump was frequently backstabbed/betrayed by people in his staff/Cabinet, which made it harder to get stuff done. There was constant "leaking" of information to the press & frequent firings of staff, high turn around. Every week someone was fired. In & out.

He cleaned house every week. Doesn't matter when you keep hiring people who backstab you.

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Bingo.

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Yes and no. The President has the power to appoint his cabinet and some undersecretaries and a few other roles. Those people are supposed to manage the bureaucrats. But the career bureaucrats have civil service protections and can't be fired willy nilly. Instead usually they are sent to the hinterlands. Pompeo's Never Give an Inch provides some insight into what Trump faced in his own executive branch. I enjoyed the book. It was factual without being hysterical or bitter. The citizens of this nation have a problem.

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II don’t think so..it takes hundreds maybe thousands of political appointees to carry out your Presidential ideas.. I’d guess that (and I’ve seen research) that most career feds are D’s so any changes will be jumped on by the media. This was true of even the more mainline Bush. A new Admin would have to figure out what’s really important and develop a comm strategy that goes around MSM.. gives off vibes of “adults in the room” but “not your preferred adults and that’s OK.”

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Speaking of Brett and Martha, I think they handled the debate poorly, dumb questions (UFO’s, Martha?) and that intro piece was a waste of everyone’s time. Biggest loser in the debate? Fox News.

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I agree. But I felt that the night of the 2020 election too. I think Fox performed a valuable role in its heyday but I think that heyday is past.

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Yup. At this point, everyone understands that "UFO's" are just Chinese spy balloons.

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That's a good title for fast food. Unidentified Food Objects.

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Yea, they let it spin out of control too much.

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Yes, but the mug shot of Trump.

This is all you will see and hear until the election in 2024. It’s a rather easy retort from the blue team and very dangerous. I struggle to see how the red team, the team I support, will respond to this. It’s very frustrating. Mean while, the blue team is destroying the USA. I fear that four more years of progressive 🤮 policies will put the nail in the coffin.

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The mugshot itself is a huge win for Republicans. It's a massive rallying point. There are certain demographics who like the idea of someone fighting a corrupt system; demographics that traditionally vote blue. And it looks awesome.

Team blue is going to win because they are finding ways to make the election unfair. They will use the courts to take Trump off the ballot in Georgia, Pennsylvania, Arizona, and possibly other swing states. And they will find other ways to cheat. And all they want is a single act of violence to truly and royally crack down on free speech (just look at what they did with the nothingburger that was the J6 protests).

If it were a fair election, Trump would likely just take it. It won't be fair.

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I’m sure the Democrat K Street monsters are working on this plan right now.

The white board is probably full with options.

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Why didn't the 30, or whatever number it was, law suits ever prove election interference? Why was/is the cheating found to be by Republicans? Our hands are not clean and our pot is black.

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I'm not alleging any election interference in 2020. Let's accept Biden won that one and move on; it's not worth arguing over.

I'm saying that right now, for the 2024 election, there are attempts (so far in Florida, California, and New Hampshire) to remove Trump's name from the ballot, and many more to come. An election where one candidate's name is not on the ballot is not a fair election; it's not an election where each candidate is given an equal chance.

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I didn't know about that. Are you sure your not talking about Turkey?

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I’m glad you are raising this. And why the hell weren’t these items raised in the debate the other night? The Twitter files have revealed rampant abuse and corruption. State of Missouri vs Biden has shown all the coercion from Biden Admin to silence Americans.

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Yes! Yes! Yes!

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Aug 27, 2023·edited Aug 27, 2023

Richard - If any of these Trump indictments goes to trial, juries will judge as to his innocence or guilt. Some of those jurors will be Republican. Then again, they may not be your kind of Republican..

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Vivek probably gained the most traction IMO.

Nikki Haley is just another pro war Bush era neocon who will undoubtably keep the country in perpetual conflict.

DeSantis performed pretty good but he didn't get challenged by any of the other contenders, plus he's looking more and more like another establishment DC elite.

The rest looked like a bunch of blow-hards & wannabes.

So once the RNC & DNC finishes screwing Vivek & RFK Jr out of any chance of running on their respected tickets, I'd love to see RFK Jr tap Ramaswamy as VP and run as independents. That would throw a gigantic monkey wrench in everything and at this point I'm down for both monkeys and wrenches. Just sayin......

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Desantis has done great things in Florida. How can he be a DC elite when he's not even a Senator? He helped turn Florida from purple to red. He's done a lot of good things in Florida.

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DeSantis is my hero for what he did in Florida, during Covid and for going after the groomers, Disney etc. But he’s painfully awkward on the stump. Just doesn’t come across well. And I’m dying for him to do so, because I know he would govern well.

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founding

I agree, Harry P., and I do respect DeSantis for all he’s done to cause Florida to be Red! Thousands of folks have relocated there, and ironically, MANY WOKE Left Dems help support the growing economy by vacationing there! Gotta love those “DeSanta hating Dems”

Sadly, I don’t believe DeSantis could beat Biden, tho I am skeptical anyone can, at this point. If Biden “won with 81 million votes while sitting in his basement” and that “Red Wave” was a bust, I’m not sure anyone can succeed against the “Machine”. Just sayin’

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Aug 26, 2023·edited Aug 26, 2023

Am I the only one who doesn't care if if DeSantis can come off awkward on the stump? We all like the way Biden handles himself? Are they campaigning to be in a Hollywood movie?

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In one sense, yes. America is a Hollywood movie.

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I hear you. I don’t care that he doesn’t come across smoothly. But lots of people will. And that’s why he has little chance of emerging from the primary.

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I hear you but hope DeSantis starts just being himself without trying to crack smiles.

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That's the problem, he is being himself and himself is not attractive.

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The debacle with his campaign workers demonstrated that he has no better judgment at choosing people to work for him than Trump did.

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DeSantis waited too long to fire his campaign manager.

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Definitely

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I don't doubt that he did & does great things in Florida. I just don't think he'd make a great president & should remain serving as governor. IMO when he was serving in the U.S. House of Representatives (2013–2018) he looked like the typical GOP congressman who just goes along with the status quo.

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Fair enough. For me he's the best of the bunch.

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His whiny, nasally voice and humorless demeanor is unbearable.

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I think the third party option with RFK Jr and/or Vivek is the only hope this country has. I'm not counting on it happening. But I still think that it is the only path out of the dumpster fire we currently live in. The DNC's desired candidates will only send us speeding faster toward the edge of the cliff. Trump is gasoline that will likely turn the fire into a civil war.

I don't have much hope here. But what little I have rests on the rise of a centrist third party.

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Don’t get black pilled on us yet! Americans are resilient & determined when facing what look like insurmountable challenges. Hang in there!

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I am a realist. And I am painfully aware that virtually every institution in American society has been captured from inside by the Left's Long March: Education (initially in Academia, but now at all levels); the Media; all parts of the (unelected!) Bureaucracy, including the FBI and the IRS; Medicine, particularly Psychology; Law and the Justice System; and even the Military.

In a very real sense, it scarcely matters who we elect, because unless they have the will (and the support of enough members of Congress) to completely gut the Bureaucracy and pass Civil Rights laws that place a person's political beliefs into the protected class, the Left will continue to control our lives in ways that no election can solve.

Remember how many ordinary Democrats wanted to put unvaccinated people in gulags and take their children away? That's the direction the Left is going now. It would take a moderate leader to have any hope of preventing that.

I'm afraid I've been black-pilled ever since I discovered that it wasn't *just* Education and the Media that are under the full control of the Left.

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"Remember how many ordinary Democrats wanted to put unvaccinated people in gulags and take their children away? That's the direction the Left is going now. It would take a moderate leader to have any hope of preventing that."

Yes unfortunately true. I'm in a very Blue area & while I had to be vaccinated to keep my job, I firmly believe the vaccine should be optional & a person's choice whether they want it or not. I had many crazy liberal patients tell me things like "Doctor, I really wish all the unvaccinated people would just get sick with COVID and die. We shouldn't let them into the hospitals. They can just die in the streets." I blame MSNBC & liberal media for brainwashing these loonies into thinking this way.

Yes we need a moderate leader. We need someone who can get elected in the general election & who can bring this country together.

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The sad thing is how many of them have never woken up to the utter inhumanity of that viewpoint. Probably, if you asked them, they would say they haven't changed their minds.

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Understand and you list every reason why we need a Kennedy or Ramaswamy. Hang tough!

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"Civil Rights laws that place a person's political beliefs into the protected class"

That's actually a great idea. I hope someone could do that. Needs to be done. People are being persecuted for their political beliefs. Maybe the Supreme Court??

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You could probably pay them to do it.

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At this point, I'm not even sure that the third party would be considered "centrist." Vivek and RFK, Jr., both of whom I support, have a libertarian streak I find admirable.

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Follow his big money donors. And Haley's etc. Most truthful line was, 'you're all bought and paid for.

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founding

Eli, there should be no doubt we have the best politicians money can buy!

How else do they get elected over & over and become filthy rich? Being a politician pays very well!

Money = Power. Lord Actin said, “Power tends to corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely” (1887 & still true today!)!

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They didn’t like that line. The establishment crew. As an old pol I knew always said “a stuck pig squeals”

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Said the immature punk who made his fortune from vaccines that were neither necessary or effective.

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no doubt about it.

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Ukraine will win the war regardless of what America does, but objectively Haley’s policies will end the war sooner and Ramaswamy’s will cause it to continue longer.

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