The paragraph copied below about systemic racism betrays a lack of both nuance and historical understanding, and makes me discredit the entire letter. It's over the top inane.
Which is unfortunate, because I suspect that many of the author's criticisms are well founded, if not well argued.
The paragraph copied below about systemic racism betrays a lack of both nuance and historical understanding, and makes me discredit the entire letter. It's over the top inane.
Which is unfortunate, because I suspect that many of the author's criticisms are well founded, if not well argued.
"Systemic racism, properly understood, is segregated schools and separate lunch counters. It is the interning of Japanese and the exterminating of Jews. Systemic racism is unequivocally not a small number of isolated incidences over a period of decades. Ask any girl, of any race, if they have ever experienced insults from friends, have ever felt slighted by teachers or have ever suffered the occasional injustice from a school at which they have spent up to 13 years of their life, and you are bound to hear grievances, some petty, some not. We have not had systemic racism against Blacks in this country since the civil rights reforms of the 1960s, a period of more than 50 years. To state otherwise is a flat-out misrepresentation of our country's history and adds no understanding to any of today's societal issues. If anything, longstanding and widespread policies such as affirmative action, point in precisely the opposite direction."
Anytime someone begins with a comment using the word "nuance", it should set off a person's BS alarm.
It's not nuanced at all. Over 70% of black children are raised in homes with no father. If that one fact alone were reversed, so that 70% - preferably more - were raised in functioning homes with fathers, it would change EVERYTHING.
That, along with the ripple effects (schools that don't educate, communities where the criminals run riot), ought to be discussed. But you don't want to have a discussion, much less reach any kind of consensus. You want to say, “This is the way things are. And if you don’t agree with us, you’re racist. And oh, by the way, if you argue with us, we’ll try to get you fired from your job. And threaten your family. And publish your address, so some thugs can stop by for a friendly visit.”
No one is denying racism; Andrew Gutmann has stepped away from bullied crowd to challenge the misuse of the term “structural” or “systemic” racism, and claims that American blacks have no agency.
The CRT grift has broadened racism to encompass and condemn every aspect of Western society. Language. Grammar. Math. Whiiteness. Tests. Grades. Merit. Gifted students. Government. Capitalism. Reason. Law enforcement. Actions have consequences. Objectivity. Dolls. Standards. Manners. Science. History. Rule of law. Checks and balances. Hair. Punctuality. Voter ID. Animal charities. Clothes. Cartoons. Mothers. Fathers. Families. Heterosexuality. The word, "citizen." Toys. Books—lots of books. Lincoln. Grant. Churchill. Plato. Seneca. Old movies. Shakespeare. Seuss. Mr. Potato head. It must all come crashing down in a cloud of white supremacy dust. Speaking of “re-imagining,” imagine the hell on earth that would replace it.
Orwell used FREEDOM IS SLAVERY to demonstrate how the indoctrinated can be railroaded into denying reality. Absent a scintilla of awareness or irony, “speech is oppression” is a core tenet of CRT. Children and adults are to instantly parrot jargon imposed by poseurs and tricksters who do not, as evidenced by the black writers and intellectuals battling CRT, represent all blacks.
Teaching children, or adults, that “positive discrimination” against whites, bullying, intimidation, and snitching are virtues; that white children or adults are oppressors who must remain silent and “listen”; that they and their parents have arrived at their station in life through iniquity is, in fact, a rock solid example of “systemic” racism, a "structural" violation of human rights, the exact stuff of which ethnic cleansing is made. CRT is a very big, steaming pile of hooey. Liberal democracy cannot survive it.
Thank you for that amazing list of things that have now become racist. It is shocking to see them all listed in one place. And I am sure we can add many things to the list.
SR, Quote "No one is denying racism". Really, the question is what type of "racism" is dominant in the USA today.
Anyone wanting to understand the truth about ‘white supremacy’ and/or ‘white racism’ needs to consider the following facts. Of course, the very idea of considering ‘facts’ is racist for the ‘woke’.
All of the richest, most successful ethnic groups are non-white minorities. Of course, Jews are considerably more successful than non-Jews.
Google gets 23,800 hits for "Tony Timpa", 58,400 hits for "Justine Damond", and 39,400,000 for "George Floyd". Some lives count for a lot more than others. Some lives barely matter at all. Tony Timpa died at the hands of the Dallas police under circumstances somewhat similar to George Floyd (in many ways worse). Never heard of him? That's exactly the point. Some lives just don't matter. A lady by the name of Justine Diamond was killed by the Minneapolis police. Never heard of her? That's exactly the point. Some lives just don't matter
The New York Times actually hired a fanatical racist (Sarah Jeong) for its editorial board. Her history of bigotry was no obstacle to her getting the job. It may have even helped. Of course, she was no ordinary racist. Genocide advocate would be more like it
Quote “How much harder is it for an Asian-American applicant? Mr. Zhao and the complaint cite 2009 research by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade that found an Asian-American student must earn an SAT score 140 points higher than a white student, 270 points higher than a Hispanic and 450 points higher than an African-American, all else being equal. So if a white applicant scored 2160 on the SAT, lower than last year’s Harvard average, an Asian-American would need to hit 2300, well into the 99% percentile, to have an equal chance at getting in.”
In the USA, police are more likely to kill whites than blacks. Check the actual research of Ronald G. Fryer and Joseph Cesario on this subject.
Every significant institution is the United States is more or less obsessed with "diversity" (really racial quotas). The list of "diversity" obsessed institutions obviously includes academia, the media, Hollywood, corporations, the military, government agencies, etc. The reality is that essentially no racism exists in the United States today. However, this is not quite true. Racism really does exist in America, anti-white and anti-Asian racism that is.
I'd like to see a more developed argument before signing on, but the author seems to be drawing a line between active policy (however tacit: redlining WOULD BE systemic racism in his scheme, I think) and "systemic" problems that are only diagnosed by outcome disparities. The problem with the latter is confounding variables. For example, Nigerian Americans on average make more than white Americans; Somali Americans make less. Therefore, "systemic racism" cannot be the only driving variable in the disparity. If it was, then both Nigerians AND Somalis would make less that whites. If that's what he's getting at, I'm not seeing what's wrong with the model (yet), and you didn't indicate what you find objectionable about the paragraph your quoted except citing an unstated "lack of both nuance and historical understanding". Could you explain further?
I wish he had eschewed a broad brush dismissal of the idea of systemic racism. That said, minorities who attend $20k+ private schools aren't the victims of it, a more nuanced (and courageous) point he should have made.
seems like it doesn't fit your definition of systemic racism, which is made up and doesn't match what the two words mean when combined with each other according to, you know, the definition of those words
Systematic racism doesn’t exist. The economic gap between Black and White is due to one thing, the destruction of the Black family. That was engineered by LBJ and accomplished with the passage of the Great Society programs. Black children raised my their mother and father succeed like all children similarly raised.
I agree with you. However, the definition used by the anti-Racist movement is <any disparate outcome is evidence of systemic racism> which is way more inane than claiming it doesn't exist.
No this paragraph is dead on. Systematic racism is dead. Sure we've had pockets of racism since the 60's, but it gradually has been collapsing and really ended by the 90's. All that was left was pocket and mostly hidden racists. But the systems have not been racism for decades.
If you discredit an entire letter based on this paragraph, don't you also lack nuance? I agree that the definition of systemic COULD be wider than the author allows, although I think that income inequality and generational poverty are the real culprits. But please, whatever the case, the all time champions of lacking nuance are CRT fundamentalists that he is up against.
one example of systemic racism since 1964 is the traffic office division(s) of local and statewide police forces. how many white people are shot at after being pulled over for a traffic violation? and, how does fear of losing a brother, father, or son to that affect the psyches of black women and other family members? i'm a white girl and a brearley grad, but i think it's time for all of us to start thinking seriously about empathy and what it's like to live in other people's shoes. This is not a defense of the current happenings at private schools in nyc (I'm sure it's imperfect; change is messy), just a reminder to those of us with privilege that systemic inequality still exists (the prison system is another example) and that significant trauma accompanies it, for black people in America (a reminder that black men, women, and children were initially brought to this country involuntarily and subsequently treated as 'property' and then second-class citizens--with lynchings and rape a regular part of daily life). That historical trauma is so significant that it is carried from generation to generation on a cellular level.
The only systems that are provably racist are teachers’ unions. They exists to protect teachers- the good and the horrible. They prevent bad teachers from being fired or held accountable. They most recently have fought tooth and nail to keep schools closed in liberal states and cities. There is undeniable evidence it is not only safe to return to in class learning (millions of children have been in class all year including mine) but not doing so has caused more damage (even death) than returning to school would have. Additionally, Democrat politicians’ stance on school choice is systemically racist. While they have the luxury to attend or reject their neighborhood public school option, minorities who live in poor areas are stuck with failing schools and unable to opt out.
I believe k-12 education in America is a disaster but shows systemic discrimination against the under privileged of all races. Socioeconomics not race.
M, Quote "I believe k-12 education in America is a disaster but shows systemic discrimination against the under privileged of all races". That's certainly the conventional wisdom. But it may not be true.
A generation ago Scientific American published a study showing that the children of poor Vietnamese immigrants were thriving in the same schools where black and Hispanic children were failing. See Nathan Caplan, Marcella Choy, and John K. Whitmore, “Indochinese Refugee Families and Academic Achievement,” Scientific American (1992), 36-42. Quote "The scholastic success of Asian children is well recognized. Their stunning performance—particularly in the realm of science and mathematics—has prompted American educators to visit Japanese and Taiwanese schools in an effort to unearth the foundations of these achievements. Experts recommend that American schools adopt aspects of their Asian counter-parts, such as a longer school year or more rigorous tasks, in order to raise the scholastic level of US. students. Yet there is no need to go abroad to understand why these children do so well. The achievement of Asian-American students indicates that much may be learned about the origins of their triumph within the American school system itself. More specifically, during the late 1970s and early 1980s, devastating political and economic circumstances forced many Vietnamese, Lao and Chinese-Vietnamese families to seek a new life in the US. This resettlement of boat people from Indochina offered a rare opportunity to examine the academic achievement of their children. These young refugees had lost months, even years of formal schooling while living in relocation camps. Like their parents, they suffered disruption and trauma as they escaped from Southeast Asia. Despite their hardships and with little knowledge of English, the children quickly adapted to their new schools and began to excel."
The gap between black and white wealth and black and white economic upward mobility persists and is huge. This is due to the persistence of unequal treatment of the races. This gap does not define America or our history and does not mean that America is somehow immoral but it is significant. Defining systemic racism so narrowly ignores what most people mean when they use the phrase.
Also - wealth and income disparities follow ports and waterways as that is where communities develop. That is a much bigger factor than is usually recognized.
Ports and waterways (along with coal deposits) played a major role in 19th and early 20th century economic development. The fact that the USA is mostly flat and has major navigable waterways was a huge plus in the past. Of course, the vast natural harbor of NYC (and the river that leads to it) were positives in the past as well. The rise of the Internet (and the containerization of freight) has made these factors less important than they were.
Economic success has a very real geography component, although contemporary discourse tends to ignore it.
The US also had (still has) very large coal fields. All of the economic success stories of the 19th century had large coal fields (the UK, Japan, Germany, France, etc.) had large coal deposits. It should be noted that coal appears to have been a necessary condition, but not a sufficient one.
China and India both had (have) vast coal fields and did not achieve any notable success in the 19th century. It is probably worth noting that China is now the largest coal producer in the world (by far) and coal production in India is soaring.
A useful note is that the economic powers of the 19th century were sometimes called 'coal powers". That phrase has fallen out of use.
Read Dr. Thomas Sowell's book "Discrimination and Disparities". It was eye-opening for me. It caused me to completely re-evaluate my understanding of the issue.
Using the term "systemic" is incorrect. There are literally no "systems" of government power that include discrimination against minorities. The opposite is true; there are government systems that give preference to minorities.
Do you know the cause of this non-systemic racism? Single family households. Where are those most prevalent? How much better off are two parent households economically?
David Roberts says: "The gap between black and white wealth and black and white economic upward mobility persists and is huge. " -- So whenever there is a gap in something it must be racism? When Asians in America and Canada have higher income than the average, then that is due to racism against the whites? When Persian immigrants are far more successful than Arab and Hispanic immigrants, then that is due to racism? So simplistic and unsophisticated,I should say.
Yes there is a historical gap in wealth .... I have white privilege....I would like to share it with anyone who would like some...this is how to build a fortune...Lets start now!
1. graduate from school..hopefully you will have more than one to choose from
2. get a job...any job and keep it..get a better one as soon as you can
3. do not have children outside of marriage.
4. invest in your community
5. pass what you can to your children
I realize I will be declared a racist for this but there's truth there.
These results are due to the breakdown of the black family, caused primarily by the "Great Society" laws under Lyndon Johnson, which favored single-parent households for government support. President Clinton and the Republican Congress undid some of the worst features, but President Obama reinstalled them.
Under President Trump black unemployment was the lowest on record until COVID hit, and the households in the lowest quarter of incomes did better by percentage increase than the top quarter.
And upward mobility is routine for those in the bottom ranking over time. Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics makes this clear. Read pages 203 to 215 (5th edition; you may have an earlier one).
Finally, the highest-paying job in the U.S. is likely Player in the National Basketball Association, a job which is held mostly by blacks.
Freedom is unlikely to be lost all at once and openly. It is far more likely to be eroded away, bit by bit, amid glittering promises and expressions of noble ideas. THOMAS SOWELL
This is what’s happening to America now. We are witnessing the end of American democracy and a transition to socialism, at the hands of Democrats and their BLM race obsession.
A country does gradually lose freedoms initially. But there comes a tipping point where the remaining freedoms disappear nearly overnight. The US is approaching that point.
David, how do you equate for other races that out perform, overcome and excel while the black community doesn’t? Could it be a cultural problem within the black community? Over half of black children born are out of wedlock and raised by 1 parent. There’s a violent vibe within the culture that you don’t see celebrated and admired in other cultures. Do you think the black community should clean up their own house before they burn down others?
DR, Group differences in wealth/income are not evidence (much less proof) of unequal treatment. Let me use some easy examples. Jews are considerably more successful than non-Jews in the USA (by many measures). Does that mean that the USA is biased in favor of Jews? Care to try that one again. By rather large margins, the most successful groups in America (way more successful than Jews) are non-white minorities. Does that mean that the USA is biased in favor of them? Care to try that one again.
That is NOT an example of systemic racism. It's simply stating a statistic and you adding your opinion "This is due to the persistence of unequal treatment of the races. " No fact there. Nothing.
No doubt every person has prejudices. We all do. We prejudge people. I look at racism as an INTENTIONAL HATRED OR BIAS while prejudice is something we were taught or learned but does not come with intent to harm. This is common sense. The easiest way to solve prejudice was what Martin Luther King Jr. espoused... Show kindness and judge others on the content of their character. It's pathetic that the radical left is twisting this backwards today in the name of antiracism when it seems to me the goal is to DIVIDE so they can maintain control of the POC voting base. Keep everyone divided and angry and you have the perfect combination to do nothing and blame the other side. It's pathetic.
And your comment on upward mobility and wealth gap relates to urban communities that have been decimated by awful feckless leadership in the school systems and unwed single mothers. One income households raising multiple children pose enormous problems for those families and for the system. Kids suffer with lack of a father, single moms suffer from working 2 jobs or being forced to get welfare, the communities suffer because of the natural problems that come from the allure of gangs and drugs in these communities and the political leadership has no incentive to actually do anything substantive to help them. They have been in power in most of these areas for well over 50 years and they are worse now then they have ever been.
It's not system racism that we are fighting. It's the political powers that have done nothing to help their constituents or improve the lives of those trapped in these urban nightmares while playing a game of "they are your problem" with the GOP every 2, 4 or 6 years to maintain power and do nothing. They use 'systemic racism' as their shield to hide from the fact that they do not care about their constituents in these neighborhoods and have done ZERO in 50 years. Thats my 2 cents.
And I know I have oversimplified the nuances but the gist of it appears to me to be the above stated game that they play.
Excellent response to this claim that systemic racism is proved by disparate impact patterns. Disparate impact as proof of systemic racism is, as you suggest, a diversion from the factors that contribute to it. As the 1776 Unites group is especially good at demonstrating, these disparities of income, wealth, etc., are NOT the legacy of slavery or Jim Crow in any but the most indirect and irrelevant ways. Family disfunction in poor black communities, for instance, has growing vastly worse than it was during Jim Crow, in part due to horribly misconceived War on Poverty programs. You are correct to suggest, as you do, that the systemic racism excuse is in fact a divide-and-conquer tactic that keeps the races divided destructively and hopelessly.
You’re right that current inequality does result from past injustices. But that current inequality doesn’t result from current racism - which is what crt and the “systemic racism” mantra attempts to say. (Notable exceptions include prison sentencing, which needs reform).
Isn't this mostly a question that pertains to males? Aren't we talking specifically about the gap between black and white males, as opposed to a gap between blacks and whites? Specifically, black females have been shown to outperform their white counterparts in earnings when the two come from similar socio economic backgrounds. And racism can't obviously be viewed through the lens of black and white people. It doesn't make sense that some minorities flourish within a systemically racist culture. Regarding black males, McWhorter in his piece, "So there was a law professor at Georgetown who was a racist" discusses the higher success rates of blacks that are accepted to Ivy League law schools when acceptance is based solely on performance. Yes, there are fewer, but those that make it are more successful than their white - whatever that even means anymore in this country - peers. I would suggest that the term systemic racism is an easy way to avoid hard discussions about cultures, black or white, that proceed violent and under educated males, black or white.
The paragraph copied below about systemic racism betrays a lack of both nuance and historical understanding, and makes me discredit the entire letter. It's over the top inane.
Which is unfortunate, because I suspect that many of the author's criticisms are well founded, if not well argued.
"Systemic racism, properly understood, is segregated schools and separate lunch counters. It is the interning of Japanese and the exterminating of Jews. Systemic racism is unequivocally not a small number of isolated incidences over a period of decades. Ask any girl, of any race, if they have ever experienced insults from friends, have ever felt slighted by teachers or have ever suffered the occasional injustice from a school at which they have spent up to 13 years of their life, and you are bound to hear grievances, some petty, some not. We have not had systemic racism against Blacks in this country since the civil rights reforms of the 1960s, a period of more than 50 years. To state otherwise is a flat-out misrepresentation of our country's history and adds no understanding to any of today's societal issues. If anything, longstanding and widespread policies such as affirmative action, point in precisely the opposite direction."
Anytime someone begins with a comment using the word "nuance", it should set off a person's BS alarm.
It's not nuanced at all. Over 70% of black children are raised in homes with no father. If that one fact alone were reversed, so that 70% - preferably more - were raised in functioning homes with fathers, it would change EVERYTHING.
That, along with the ripple effects (schools that don't educate, communities where the criminals run riot), ought to be discussed. But you don't want to have a discussion, much less reach any kind of consensus. You want to say, “This is the way things are. And if you don’t agree with us, you’re racist. And oh, by the way, if you argue with us, we’ll try to get you fired from your job. And threaten your family. And publish your address, so some thugs can stop by for a friendly visit.”
No one is denying racism; Andrew Gutmann has stepped away from bullied crowd to challenge the misuse of the term “structural” or “systemic” racism, and claims that American blacks have no agency.
The CRT grift has broadened racism to encompass and condemn every aspect of Western society. Language. Grammar. Math. Whiiteness. Tests. Grades. Merit. Gifted students. Government. Capitalism. Reason. Law enforcement. Actions have consequences. Objectivity. Dolls. Standards. Manners. Science. History. Rule of law. Checks and balances. Hair. Punctuality. Voter ID. Animal charities. Clothes. Cartoons. Mothers. Fathers. Families. Heterosexuality. The word, "citizen." Toys. Books—lots of books. Lincoln. Grant. Churchill. Plato. Seneca. Old movies. Shakespeare. Seuss. Mr. Potato head. It must all come crashing down in a cloud of white supremacy dust. Speaking of “re-imagining,” imagine the hell on earth that would replace it.
Orwell used FREEDOM IS SLAVERY to demonstrate how the indoctrinated can be railroaded into denying reality. Absent a scintilla of awareness or irony, “speech is oppression” is a core tenet of CRT. Children and adults are to instantly parrot jargon imposed by poseurs and tricksters who do not, as evidenced by the black writers and intellectuals battling CRT, represent all blacks.
Teaching children, or adults, that “positive discrimination” against whites, bullying, intimidation, and snitching are virtues; that white children or adults are oppressors who must remain silent and “listen”; that they and their parents have arrived at their station in life through iniquity is, in fact, a rock solid example of “systemic” racism, a "structural" violation of human rights, the exact stuff of which ethnic cleansing is made. CRT is a very big, steaming pile of hooey. Liberal democracy cannot survive it.
Thank you for that amazing list of things that have now become racist. It is shocking to see them all listed in one place. And I am sure we can add many things to the list.
I forgot pronouns and religion.
SR, Quote "No one is denying racism". Really, the question is what type of "racism" is dominant in the USA today.
Anyone wanting to understand the truth about ‘white supremacy’ and/or ‘white racism’ needs to consider the following facts. Of course, the very idea of considering ‘facts’ is racist for the ‘woke’.
All of the richest, most successful ethnic groups are non-white minorities. Of course, Jews are considerably more successful than non-Jews.
Google gets 23,800 hits for "Tony Timpa", 58,400 hits for "Justine Damond", and 39,400,000 for "George Floyd". Some lives count for a lot more than others. Some lives barely matter at all. Tony Timpa died at the hands of the Dallas police under circumstances somewhat similar to George Floyd (in many ways worse). Never heard of him? That's exactly the point. Some lives just don't matter. A lady by the name of Justine Diamond was killed by the Minneapolis police. Never heard of her? That's exactly the point. Some lives just don't matter
The New York Times actually hired a fanatical racist (Sarah Jeong) for its editorial board. Her history of bigotry was no obstacle to her getting the job. It may have even helped. Of course, she was no ordinary racist. Genocide advocate would be more like it
Quote “How much harder is it for an Asian-American applicant? Mr. Zhao and the complaint cite 2009 research by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade that found an Asian-American student must earn an SAT score 140 points higher than a white student, 270 points higher than a Hispanic and 450 points higher than an African-American, all else being equal. So if a white applicant scored 2160 on the SAT, lower than last year’s Harvard average, an Asian-American would need to hit 2300, well into the 99% percentile, to have an equal chance at getting in.”
In the USA, police are more likely to kill whites than blacks. Check the actual research of Ronald G. Fryer and Joseph Cesario on this subject.
Every significant institution is the United States is more or less obsessed with "diversity" (really racial quotas). The list of "diversity" obsessed institutions obviously includes academia, the media, Hollywood, corporations, the military, government agencies, etc. The reality is that essentially no racism exists in the United States today. However, this is not quite true. Racism really does exist in America, anti-white and anti-Asian racism that is.
I'd like to see a more developed argument before signing on, but the author seems to be drawing a line between active policy (however tacit: redlining WOULD BE systemic racism in his scheme, I think) and "systemic" problems that are only diagnosed by outcome disparities. The problem with the latter is confounding variables. For example, Nigerian Americans on average make more than white Americans; Somali Americans make less. Therefore, "systemic racism" cannot be the only driving variable in the disparity. If it was, then both Nigerians AND Somalis would make less that whites. If that's what he's getting at, I'm not seeing what's wrong with the model (yet), and you didn't indicate what you find objectionable about the paragraph your quoted except citing an unstated "lack of both nuance and historical understanding". Could you explain further?
I wish he had eschewed a broad brush dismissal of the idea of systemic racism. That said, minorities who attend $20k+ private schools aren't the victims of it, a more nuanced (and courageous) point he should have made.
seems like it doesn't fit your definition of systemic racism, which is made up and doesn't match what the two words mean when combined with each other according to, you know, the definition of those words
Dig into Thomas Sowell 101. Until you do, you are a neophyte.
Is anyone else concerned that Thomas Sowell’s books will soon be banned?
Yes, this is why I am slowly (as my funds allow) buying hard copies of all his books.
Crazier things are happening.
Right on.
Systematic racism doesn’t exist. The economic gap between Black and White is due to one thing, the destruction of the Black family. That was engineered by LBJ and accomplished with the passage of the Great Society programs. Black children raised my their mother and father succeed like all children similarly raised.
I agree with you. However, the definition used by the anti-Racist movement is <any disparate outcome is evidence of systemic racism> which is way more inane than claiming it doesn't exist.
No this paragraph is dead on. Systematic racism is dead. Sure we've had pockets of racism since the 60's, but it gradually has been collapsing and really ended by the 90's. All that was left was pocket and mostly hidden racists. But the systems have not been racism for decades.
If you discredit an entire letter based on this paragraph, don't you also lack nuance? I agree that the definition of systemic COULD be wider than the author allows, although I think that income inequality and generational poverty are the real culprits. But please, whatever the case, the all time champions of lacking nuance are CRT fundamentalists that he is up against.
What about it would lead you to believe he lacks historical understanding?
David, can you give some valid examples of systemic racism since 1964 or so? Genuinely want to know.
one example of systemic racism since 1964 is the traffic office division(s) of local and statewide police forces. how many white people are shot at after being pulled over for a traffic violation? and, how does fear of losing a brother, father, or son to that affect the psyches of black women and other family members? i'm a white girl and a brearley grad, but i think it's time for all of us to start thinking seriously about empathy and what it's like to live in other people's shoes. This is not a defense of the current happenings at private schools in nyc (I'm sure it's imperfect; change is messy), just a reminder to those of us with privilege that systemic inequality still exists (the prison system is another example) and that significant trauma accompanies it, for black people in America (a reminder that black men, women, and children were initially brought to this country involuntarily and subsequently treated as 'property' and then second-class citizens--with lynchings and rape a regular part of daily life). That historical trauma is so significant that it is carried from generation to generation on a cellular level.
The only systems that are provably racist are teachers’ unions. They exists to protect teachers- the good and the horrible. They prevent bad teachers from being fired or held accountable. They most recently have fought tooth and nail to keep schools closed in liberal states and cities. There is undeniable evidence it is not only safe to return to in class learning (millions of children have been in class all year including mine) but not doing so has caused more damage (even death) than returning to school would have. Additionally, Democrat politicians’ stance on school choice is systemically racist. While they have the luxury to attend or reject their neighborhood public school option, minorities who live in poor areas are stuck with failing schools and unable to opt out.
Agree!!
I believe k-12 education in America is a disaster but shows systemic discrimination against the under privileged of all races. Socioeconomics not race.
M, Quote "I believe k-12 education in America is a disaster but shows systemic discrimination against the under privileged of all races". That's certainly the conventional wisdom. But it may not be true.
A generation ago Scientific American published a study showing that the children of poor Vietnamese immigrants were thriving in the same schools where black and Hispanic children were failing. See Nathan Caplan, Marcella Choy, and John K. Whitmore, “Indochinese Refugee Families and Academic Achievement,” Scientific American (1992), 36-42. Quote "The scholastic success of Asian children is well recognized. Their stunning performance—particularly in the realm of science and mathematics—has prompted American educators to visit Japanese and Taiwanese schools in an effort to unearth the foundations of these achievements. Experts recommend that American schools adopt aspects of their Asian counter-parts, such as a longer school year or more rigorous tasks, in order to raise the scholastic level of US. students. Yet there is no need to go abroad to understand why these children do so well. The achievement of Asian-American students indicates that much may be learned about the origins of their triumph within the American school system itself. More specifically, during the late 1970s and early 1980s, devastating political and economic circumstances forced many Vietnamese, Lao and Chinese-Vietnamese families to seek a new life in the US. This resettlement of boat people from Indochina offered a rare opportunity to examine the academic achievement of their children. These young refugees had lost months, even years of formal schooling while living in relocation camps. Like their parents, they suffered disruption and trauma as they escaped from Southeast Asia. Despite their hardships and with little knowledge of English, the children quickly adapted to their new schools and began to excel."
The gap between black and white wealth and black and white economic upward mobility persists and is huge. This is due to the persistence of unequal treatment of the races. This gap does not define America or our history and does not mean that America is somehow immoral but it is significant. Defining systemic racism so narrowly ignores what most people mean when they use the phrase.
You did not answer his question at all.
Also - wealth and income disparities follow ports and waterways as that is where communities develop. That is a much bigger factor than is usually recognized.
Ports and waterways (along with coal deposits) played a major role in 19th and early 20th century economic development. The fact that the USA is mostly flat and has major navigable waterways was a huge plus in the past. Of course, the vast natural harbor of NYC (and the river that leads to it) were positives in the past as well. The rise of the Internet (and the containerization of freight) has made these factors less important than they were.
Economic success has a very real geography component, although contemporary discourse tends to ignore it.
The US also had (still has) very large coal fields. All of the economic success stories of the 19th century had large coal fields (the UK, Japan, Germany, France, etc.) had large coal deposits. It should be noted that coal appears to have been a necessary condition, but not a sufficient one.
China and India both had (have) vast coal fields and did not achieve any notable success in the 19th century. It is probably worth noting that China is now the largest coal producer in the world (by far) and coal production in India is soaring.
A useful note is that the economic powers of the 19th century were sometimes called 'coal powers". That phrase has fallen out of use.
Read Dr. Thomas Sowell's book "Discrimination and Disparities". It was eye-opening for me. It caused me to completely re-evaluate my understanding of the issue.
Using the term "systemic" is incorrect. There are literally no "systems" of government power that include discrimination against minorities. The opposite is true; there are government systems that give preference to minorities.
Race baiters do not read objective, thoughtful writing on racism.
Do you know the cause of this non-systemic racism? Single family households. Where are those most prevalent? How much better off are two parent households economically?
How do you account for the incredible upward mobility demonstrated by immigrant Asians and non-American born blacks from the Caribbean and Africa?
David Roberts says: "The gap between black and white wealth and black and white economic upward mobility persists and is huge. " -- So whenever there is a gap in something it must be racism? When Asians in America and Canada have higher income than the average, then that is due to racism against the whites? When Persian immigrants are far more successful than Arab and Hispanic immigrants, then that is due to racism? So simplistic and unsophisticated,I should say.
Yes there is a historical gap in wealth .... I have white privilege....I would like to share it with anyone who would like some...this is how to build a fortune...Lets start now!
1. graduate from school..hopefully you will have more than one to choose from
2. get a job...any job and keep it..get a better one as soon as you can
3. do not have children outside of marriage.
4. invest in your community
5. pass what you can to your children
I realize I will be declared a racist for this but there's truth there.
Larry Elder (among many others) says the same thing and he doesn't have white privilege. It's prevailing wisdom where one actually seeks wisdom.
These results are due to the breakdown of the black family, caused primarily by the "Great Society" laws under Lyndon Johnson, which favored single-parent households for government support. President Clinton and the Republican Congress undid some of the worst features, but President Obama reinstalled them.
Under President Trump black unemployment was the lowest on record until COVID hit, and the households in the lowest quarter of incomes did better by percentage increase than the top quarter.
And upward mobility is routine for those in the bottom ranking over time. Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics makes this clear. Read pages 203 to 215 (5th edition; you may have an earlier one).
Finally, the highest-paying job in the U.S. is likely Player in the National Basketball Association, a job which is held mostly by blacks.
Freedom is unlikely to be lost all at once and openly. It is far more likely to be eroded away, bit by bit, amid glittering promises and expressions of noble ideas. THOMAS SOWELL
This is what’s happening to America now. We are witnessing the end of American democracy and a transition to socialism, at the hands of Democrats and their BLM race obsession.
A country does gradually lose freedoms initially. But there comes a tipping point where the remaining freedoms disappear nearly overnight. The US is approaching that point.
You are confusing cause and effect.
LOUDERinMIDDLEjust now
David, how do you equate for other races that out perform, overcome and excel while the black community doesn’t? Could it be a cultural problem within the black community? Over half of black children born are out of wedlock and raised by 1 parent. There’s a violent vibe within the culture that you don’t see celebrated and admired in other cultures. Do you think the black community should clean up their own house before they burn down others?
Culture is key.
75% of black children are born out of wedlock.
DR, Group differences in wealth/income are not evidence (much less proof) of unequal treatment. Let me use some easy examples. Jews are considerably more successful than non-Jews in the USA (by many measures). Does that mean that the USA is biased in favor of Jews? Care to try that one again. By rather large margins, the most successful groups in America (way more successful than Jews) are non-white minorities. Does that mean that the USA is biased in favor of them? Care to try that one again.
Racism of the gaps. It’s faith-based reasoning.
That is NOT an example of systemic racism. It's simply stating a statistic and you adding your opinion "This is due to the persistence of unequal treatment of the races. " No fact there. Nothing.
No doubt every person has prejudices. We all do. We prejudge people. I look at racism as an INTENTIONAL HATRED OR BIAS while prejudice is something we were taught or learned but does not come with intent to harm. This is common sense. The easiest way to solve prejudice was what Martin Luther King Jr. espoused... Show kindness and judge others on the content of their character. It's pathetic that the radical left is twisting this backwards today in the name of antiracism when it seems to me the goal is to DIVIDE so they can maintain control of the POC voting base. Keep everyone divided and angry and you have the perfect combination to do nothing and blame the other side. It's pathetic.
And your comment on upward mobility and wealth gap relates to urban communities that have been decimated by awful feckless leadership in the school systems and unwed single mothers. One income households raising multiple children pose enormous problems for those families and for the system. Kids suffer with lack of a father, single moms suffer from working 2 jobs or being forced to get welfare, the communities suffer because of the natural problems that come from the allure of gangs and drugs in these communities and the political leadership has no incentive to actually do anything substantive to help them. They have been in power in most of these areas for well over 50 years and they are worse now then they have ever been.
It's not system racism that we are fighting. It's the political powers that have done nothing to help their constituents or improve the lives of those trapped in these urban nightmares while playing a game of "they are your problem" with the GOP every 2, 4 or 6 years to maintain power and do nothing. They use 'systemic racism' as their shield to hide from the fact that they do not care about their constituents in these neighborhoods and have done ZERO in 50 years. Thats my 2 cents.
And I know I have oversimplified the nuances but the gist of it appears to me to be the above stated game that they play.
Excellent points
Excellent response to this claim that systemic racism is proved by disparate impact patterns. Disparate impact as proof of systemic racism is, as you suggest, a diversion from the factors that contribute to it. As the 1776 Unites group is especially good at demonstrating, these disparities of income, wealth, etc., are NOT the legacy of slavery or Jim Crow in any but the most indirect and irrelevant ways. Family disfunction in poor black communities, for instance, has growing vastly worse than it was during Jim Crow, in part due to horribly misconceived War on Poverty programs. You are correct to suggest, as you do, that the systemic racism excuse is in fact a divide-and-conquer tactic that keeps the races divided destructively and hopelessly.
You’re right that current inequality does result from past injustices. But that current inequality doesn’t result from current racism - which is what crt and the “systemic racism” mantra attempts to say. (Notable exceptions include prison sentencing, which needs reform).
Isn't this mostly a question that pertains to males? Aren't we talking specifically about the gap between black and white males, as opposed to a gap between blacks and whites? Specifically, black females have been shown to outperform their white counterparts in earnings when the two come from similar socio economic backgrounds. And racism can't obviously be viewed through the lens of black and white people. It doesn't make sense that some minorities flourish within a systemically racist culture. Regarding black males, McWhorter in his piece, "So there was a law professor at Georgetown who was a racist" discusses the higher success rates of blacks that are accepted to Ivy League law schools when acceptance is based solely on performance. Yes, there are fewer, but those that make it are more successful than their white - whatever that even means anymore in this country - peers. I would suggest that the term systemic racism is an easy way to avoid hard discussions about cultures, black or white, that proceed violent and under educated males, black or white.
Meant - 'that produce violent and under educated...'