Education was barely mentioned as an example of Systemic Racism. If Systemic Racism is more than a convenient rhetorical cudgel then why haven't the loudest voices mentioned the state of black education. Inner city education is abysmal. We know it’s bad and yet we do nothing. The people in charge routinely ask for more money then fail to…
Education was barely mentioned as an example of Systemic Racism. If Systemic Racism is more than a convenient rhetorical cudgel then why haven't the loudest voices mentioned the state of black education. Inner city education is abysmal. We know it’s bad and yet we do nothing. The people in charge routinely ask for more money then fail to fix things with the money. Which leads to requests for even more money. Money won’t solve the problem.
The system is broken. It’s a jobs program for education majors. If we used the same standards for food and drug companies how many would die. Would we give the companies more money and chances. Would we put up with the companies blaming their victims for the poor outcomes? There would be outrage and calls to close down the offending companies. But we put up with decades of failure - decades! We steal the future from generation after generation and the faculty lounge cowards and the corrupt politicians do nothing - say nothing - because there are no enemies to their left. We are killing these kids just as surely as if we fed them bad food or drugs.
It’s a disgrace. Why aren’t BLM, ANTIFA and the little white college kids and their out of touch professors marching and picketing and even rioting against these abattoirs? These kids don’t have a chance because they don’t have a CHOICE. They don’t have a choice because the shamelessly corrupt politicians only listen to their shamelessly corrupt funders and the shamelessly corrupt media. Shame on all of us. This is truly the civil rights issue of our time and we are failing to meet the challenge.
Better yet. Why are those social justice warriors not inside those classrooms, inside those neighborhoods, teaching those kids what they need to succeed? They ignore the real live kids that need help and instead go stand on a street for eight hours screaming how everything is wrong. Nobody is helped by someone standing in the street screaming.
The worst schools tend to be in the cities that are 100% controlled by Democrats and have been for decades. There's no Democrat/Republican divide to exploit here for political points.
Crap! What utter partisan divisive and unintelligent bollocks! Why is the Left's eternal kneejerk finger-pointing answer always that the GOP won't fork out more money? Look at the data - schools under Democrats AND Republicans have been given more money, more money, more money year after year, and NOTHING comes of it. The US spends FAR more money per student than any other country and has far less to show for it. It is a disgrace. Details show that money goes to salaries and more administrators, never to better teachers or better infrastructure or advanced teaching methods.
Matt Mullen works for a David Brock organization...so don't worry about what he says - even he doesn't believe it, he's just getting paid. They must have started a bonus pool based on insults, and MM is gunning for the top spot!
Democrats don't run schools. Local officials do. But states decide how much funding they get. It's not a coincidence that the deep red states score poorly compared to the deep blue states in education rankings. (Which are based on test scores and other factors).
Slicing your argument both ways, is a guaranteed win/win, at least in your own mind. Which urban cities/unions fought tooth and nail NOT to go back to school this year under the cover of COVID? Chicago, Los Angeles, San Fransisco, NYC-all Dem run cities. Teachers' unions donate to Democrat politicians in the millions and then Democrats pay them back by putting their needs before the students. The long term impact of the CHOICE not to teach in person will have devastating effects on urban children for a generation. https://www.rollcall.com/2021/04/28/donations-from-teachers-unions-spiked-as-congress-debated-school-reopening-virus-relief/
What buffoonery! Our children attended private (Catholic) school from K-12 grades and while choosing to pay for private education, we never once complained about paying taxes for our local public school district, which was one of the most diversified districts in our state. Quit with this crap already.
I mentioned the Republican Party. I wasn't talking to you personally. Do you deny that the Republican Party is opposed to raising taxes? That's their brand for God's sake!
Not sure what you mean. Are you talking about fiscal responsibility? If so, I do deny it. If you look at every president since Reagan Republicans have come into office and blown up the deficit with tax cuts and increased military spending. And every Democratic President since Clinton has brought the deficit down by raising taxes and cutting spending.
Not quite right. Every Democratic administration and every Republican administration in my lifetime has increased expenditures and obligations. The Democrats have tend to be "tax and spend" and the Republicans have tended to be "borrow and spend", but neither has cut spending. (Note that I'm not saying they should, just reporting accurately what they did and did not do).
Check the stats before you post that misunderstanding again.
But focusing on who is the President is misleading; most educational responsibility is still at the state and local levels, with the feds providing a smaller portion of both funding and direction (eg: textbooks and curriculum and teacher expectations are mostly determined at the state and local level).
"Republicans are opposed to raising taxes" equals "lousy schools"? Prove it with statistics. Dozens of countries spend far less per student than the US with much better results. It is NEVER a question of needing more money, it is a question of holding schools accountable for results, NOT the amount spent per pupil.
A lot of that has to do with the fact those countries spend more money to keep their kids out of poverty than we do, which doesn't show up in their per pupil spending. We started funding poorer schools better over the last few decades, and it has made a difference. Funding under funded schools works. But spending more money on wealthy students does almost nothing.
Free market + philanthropy are more efficient and way more moral than the big guy with the gun (aka government). Dems are authoritarian fascist at this point - censoring dissent, prosecuting their political opponents and mobilizing their BLM/Antifa stormtroopers to intimidate and destroy
Authoritarian fascist? You are an hysterical fool if you think America under Biden is like the Soviet Union under Stalin or China under Mao. Grow up and get a grip. Btw, violently trying to invade the capital building is illegal.
"Btw, violently trying to invade the capital building is illegal."
Sigh. Yes it was, and it's being aggressively prosecuted.
But it's going to be tiring if certain Democrats have to constantly bring up "Insurrection Insurrection Insurrection" as if it's relevant to every topic under discussion for the next few years (as Republicans brought up "Benghazi Benghazi Benghazi" previously).
The invasion of the Capitol was a very wrong and appalling action by a few hundred people (maybe two out of million of the US population), but invoking it doesn't make your arguments about other issues any more correct. Give it a rest and argue points honestly; let the prosecutors handle the invasion aftermath.
Ok you are simply tossing one non-sequitur after another. There is no coherence in your arguments, just left wing general complaints. Your answers do not relate to the questions. You are simply tossing insults, not making an actual argument.
Not as early actually - we already have innocent people jailed for political reasons, purges in the army, censorship on the up and up and a society divided to an extreme ....
You are a despicable snowflake out of arguments, resorting to personal attacks, once you cluelessness about history and willful blindness show. Keep trolling though, while you are still entertaining.
You know American spends more per student than all other countries, right? And let’s not assume that this is a Republican vs. Democrat issue. Arguably American private school elites are progressives. This crosses political lines. The more we continue to treat parties like our ports teams, the more likely we we won’t evolve.
It’s not the funds that are causing kids to fail. Even one room schoolhouses back in the day were able to provide the basic learning our country needed its citizens to have to be able to live productive lives.
Schools are local. Most of the failing districts haven't seen a Republican in decades. There is plenty of money in the system. Money is not the issue. In my local district they spend 20K+/student and still have leaky roofs and no books and high drop out rates. How is that possible?
Most black schools are Democrat -black-run. And damage can be self-inflicted. Never was this more clear than the former, short-term chancellor Michelle Rhee's attempt to overhaul Washington DC 's notoriously poor public schools. She tried to get rid of a flotilla of sup-par teachers and administrative positions and encountered intractable opposition from same. That she was part Korean became an issue.--tensions developed "along racial lines." She was fired. This is tiring because it's circular and because it's so sad. No culpability, or responsibility at all. White supremacy is the culprit.
Most public schools are local and locally funded property taxes. Thus the richer suburbs are generally better funded than many inner city and rural school districts.
That’s not true in California. Every student gets base funding of at least $12k and if your district has more than 50% of its students that are either low income or English learners or foster youth, the district gets more money per student. That was changed so that low income districts didn’t suffer because of lower property taxes. And yet, those districts with low scores have not improved. It’s not an issue of Republicans not approving more taxes. In my low income district in CA, the district spent millions on programs in the high school to boost graduation rates, and I haven’t seen anything in any elementary school to help kids who are slipping behind in reading and math. Im not against increasing graduation rates, but I have noticed that the programs that get this money a lot of times are programs that certain influential parents have a soft spot for (and these are non-white parents).
What I have also seen is complaining teacher unions with too much power, and teachers bullying other teachers who do extra work afterschool to help those kids that need it. The quote about school being a jobs program for education degrees is accurate. Teachers expect higher pay for having more qualifications and training rather than having higher pay for better outcomes like people in the real world. Nothing will change until parents have an easier time getting out of a failing school and teachers are held accountable to both parents and their students’ improvement over the course of the school year.
I still say that those teachers don’t Iike the kids and don’t want to be in the classroom with them.
Valerie Jarrett says teachers have been breaking up knife fights for eons. No they don’t. They barely confront inappropriate behavior at all.
If a teacher gets three complaints to the school board from parents they can lose their eligibility for tenure. Details may vary, but you get the idea.
Teachers can call for help with a disruptive classroom and nobody comes to aid them in restoring order. Every class has about 4 behavior problems that make teaching the willing extra challenging.
Obama era rules now incentivize schools ignoring bad behavior if it is bad for stats to address it.
Nothing confirms my belief more than the post COVID schools where class sitters are hired to be in the room while the hybrid students attend class physically and the teacher zooms. That’s absurd.
If I had to do that job I would probably want that scenario too.
Our school district has so much messaging about "reducing the achievement gap" that I worry high achieving kids with the wrong skin color are actively discouraged. That's especially for teachers of color, with whom the "achievement gap" message is likely to resonate. Yay, racial justice!
I wrote about school choice in 1988 while working on my MA in Educational Leadership. It's incredible that it hasn't made more headway, at least in the Red states.
You are fooling yourself if you honestly believe that inner city education is the real culprit. So many good teachers; so much good instruction; so many programs. I taught in Houston ISD for 22 years to 75% hispanic, 24% black, and the rest Asian and white kids. I provided the same educational service and expertise that I provided in a mostly all white school beforehand. I went to HISD to give back. I taught AP Human, AP World, and APUSH. I had many kids pass the AP tests! However, overall scores were lower than the scores you would get in the Woodlands, which is predominately white, Asian and Indian. A better question to ask is what can black students and parents do to achieve the same high scores that Asian, white and Indian students and their parents do? The education is there; one has to avail themselves of the great opportunity that already exists, rather than blaming teacher unions or even teachers for their lack of achievement.
I taught in San Antonio (Edgewood ISD---the barrio) in the mid - late '80s and two of our teachers failed the TABS, Texas Assessment of Basic Skills. It was an 8th grade level test for teachers (Ross Perot) and they couldn't pass it. Poorer or more challenging school districts don't always get the caliber of teachers others do. As a matter of fact, many of the teachers I taught with were hired from the north. Our district sued to the state supreme court for fairer funding but that didn't mean we had the highest caliber of teachers or the support systems at home to fix all of the issues kids walked into the school with. The stories I could tell!
Have you read Thomas Sowell's "Charter Schools and Their Enemies"? He presents some very compelling data that points to severe short comings in traditional public schools driven by unions and bureaucratic administrations.
What can be asked is what can Black American students and parents do. African students and parents appear to be interchangeable with Indian and Asian ones in terms of giving their kids three options for life: Engineer, Doctor, and Failure.
I'm not saying this is the best way to raise kids, either. It puts a hell of a lot of pressure on them, and there's plenty room to succeed as something else in life, even financially. But a lot of Nigerian parents can put an Asian tiger mom to shame.
Sometimes when I really think about it, I think the only thing that will really help is when people simply refuse to start families until they get the hell out of their shitty neighborhoods. Seriously, if you are working three jobs and living in a shooting gallery, take the damn pill and wrap your junk until you are OUT OF THERE for good.
If the system is as good as you say then the parents will choose the system. The teachers aren't bad the system is. Let the parents decide. What is the system afraid of. How could the outcomes be worse?
You make some great points, X7COO. I work in education, and I gotta tell ya, things are BAD. And I don't even work in the public system.
Now, about this "system". The "system" of education is immense, and to my mind, it is like a mirror dropped onto concrete... it's in pieces all over the place. It begins in the womb, with proper nutrition, avoiding drugs and alcohol, getting sleep and moderate exercise, and getting proper medical attention. Even the stress level of the mother is a factor, as is her own overall physical condition. Then, kids are born, and they need to be properly fed, properly treated, properly cared for. They need to be taught numbers and letters and how to throw a ball and to feed and dress themselves. They need to be read to, every day. They need to be taught how to behave in society and get along with others. They need two parents, and a stable home life. They need the care of their parents, not to be shoved into daycare. Their parents need to set a good example. When kids get old enough for school, parents need to pay attention. Teachers need to be held accountable by active parents. Not all parents are good at being parents. Not all teachers are good at teaching. Most school administrators (understatement here) are not good at managing their schools. The whole mess needs to be constantly monitored, maintained, and repaired. It's kind of a monster, and in many cases, it's a monster left to run wild.
A woman I know wanted to teach school all her life. She went to a fine "Seven Sisters" school, got her degree and her credential, and took a job in suburban New England, teaching elementary school. The children were so out of control, and the parents so angry and threatening, that she lasted all of two years, and she was out, for good. This was not marginalized urban America, and it was not an impoverished school district. Her class size was not outrageous, and she had all the supplies and equipment she needed to teach. But the kids showed up for school poorly raised, poorly fed, poorly rested, and ill-behaved. They routinely told her to go f*** herself. When the parents were contacted, her life was threatened, "Do you want me to come down to that school and kick your sorry a**? Do your f***ing job!" Of course, legislation has stepped in, and made it impossible to discipline kids in schools, so it's a sticky situation. It only takes a couple of disrespectful individuals to disrupt an entire classroom.
Public schools can't raise your kids for you. That's not even how it's supposed to work. And when kids who are not being raised show up for school, it's pandemonium.
Now, I work in the private school world, and as you probably know, we actually do raise your kid for you. It's what we sell: We'll take your kids off your hands, teach them values, and teach them a college prep program that will get them into a good college someday. Look at their websites... "we create good citizens!" And that has its own problems, as the outsourced "raising" has morphed into indoctrination. Which, in a perverse way, makes sense... give someone license to teach your kids values, and whose values do you think they are going to teach them, yours or theirs?
A really large percentage of America attends public schools. A really large percentage of the kids are from one-parent households, and many of them say good-bye to mommy at 18 months or even earlier, and begin being raised by strangers. Public schools and educators have failed to adapt to these new conditions on the ground, with predictable results. For all you revolutionaries out there: Here's an area where a revolution is actually needed. School needs to be completely reinvented. (Summers off, still? What, are we all farmers?)
It's going to take a stroke of genius and a collective will to fix it. I'm not optimistic.
> Which, in a perverse way, makes sense... give someone license to teach your kids values, and whose values do you think they are going to teach them, yours or theirs?
Based on economics, I'd expect them to want to make the customers/parents happy.
Thank you for sharing this. Very perceptive: "give someone license to teach your kids values, and whose values do you think they are going to teach them, yours or theirs?" Outsourcing parenting to others allows them to take advantage. I also agree that the revolution has to start with education.
In Houston ISD there IS choice. And there is a local zoned school for those who do not or cannot avail themselves of choice. Schools are not bad; it's the kids and parents who make the school good or bad. Take all the kids in Houston and send them all for one year to a so-called good school in a suburb of Houston, basically an all white/Asian/Indian school. Bring all those kids and send to a so-called bad school in East Houston. Do you think you will see any difference in achievement? Yes, the school in East Houston would now be an exemplary school! It's mostly the kids and the parents.
Are you saying the problem is that parents haven’t been able to teach their children the value of a good education. And the students don’t have the will or discipline to use what the education system is offering them? Wouldn’t that, in circular fashion be a school problem also? I guess, no one can teach ambition, but it seems to be a whole system problem?
Since every human being born without consent and is socialized from birth, can't we consider every problem a whole system problem?
I'm not trying to be as snide as that might come across; what I mean is that of course, every present day factor leading to failure, like bad parenting, can be tied to some past failure (like their own parenting, or education, or addictions or interaction with law enforcement, whatever).
So today's school problem (eg: students who show up without the will or discipline to make use of the opportunities) may to some large or small degree be blamed on historical issues with other schools.
But if we're about fixing things, rather than creating a original blame narrative, we have to break the cycle somewhere. And I don't see how a school teacher or administrator can take on responsibility for all of the circular systemic problem - the other players need to be somewhat on board.
It's much more complex than this. I taught in the East Bronx for 10 years. You have schools with rampant gang activity and other misbehavior, and some judge prevents the school from kicking anyone out. So the class time is just an exercise in futility and the teachers have no choice but to retreat to basically trying to manage aggressive kids, and then the other kids give up. The kids drag the school down and the school drags the kids down in a cycle. Not to mention there is no nutrition. Some of the kids blow up like hot air balloons by 3rd grade. Your answer is surprisingly thin for your claimed experience.
Yes we are a rich country we can afford to feed the kids 5 times a day/365. We can afford to pay the teachers whatever is fair. It's a thankless job to teach difficult students. But we can't afford to continue to subject the concerned parents, the good kids and the good teachers to a failing system. Kids need structure as well as food. Perhaps in equal parts. We have to take an honest look at the status quo and ask why is it failing so many? Why is change so hard? Can real change happen in sclerotic bureaucracy? Some of these schools are so bad I say let a thousand Charters bloom.
Good points. Those are serious problems, and they give the appearance that the school is a failing school. Go ahead, make bricks without straw. Why is it the school or the teacher's fault when you are put in a near impossible situation of educating kids with so many issues that prevent learning from taking place? Again, not the teacher nor school's fault. Doesn't mean we don't try our darnedest to provide what we can to each and every one of our kids. We do not choose our students. We get what parents send us. But at some point a parent and the student must meet you at the school house door and take responsibility for their lives and learning.
Why haven’t cities decided to reevaluate the schools. It’s not as if we don’t have means of collecting data and hadn’t been able to observe schools over decades. Why stick with a failed model? If the system results are getting worse each year, then the system, itself, is the problem and needs to be reimagined. I’m not talking about the the subjects taught, but the whole concept of how schools function, what their purpose is and how would that outcome be provided for the majority of students.
The schools are run for the benefit of teacher's unions and not the students. Better to let the problem fester and use that as leverage to demand more funding.
How about preventing the troublemakers from dragging down the rest? Schools should be responsible fo what goes on inside. If they don't take responsibility, then parents need more power, as X7C wrote. In fact, parents are the ones whose interests most naturally align with education quality.
The common retort from a parent when a child is disciplined in the least now is to threaten lawsuit. The admin cowers and it's a revolving shit show. No one has a backbone anymore. There was a sweet spot between corporal punishment and no consequences at all but that seems to be all but lost now.
You are right...and what would you have schools do with troublemakers? Where can a school send them? Public schools that are so-called "bad" schools do not have the luxury of sending certain kids to other schools, and if they do send black and brown kids out, then they are blamed for the school to prison pipeline. My principal was scared to send even one kid out, so we had to keep them somewhere. You can't put them in ISS, because that looks too much like solitary confinement. It is just difficult to educate all students, plain and simple. I do not blame public schools one bit for the failures attributed to them.
Many countries have selective schools where better students go to one school and worse students to another. If parents could choose, that selectivity would also occur.
Those exist in a number of places today. However, the trend in recent times is either to eliminate the schools for better students entirely, or eliminate any testing or filtering of who gets to attend - which amounts to the same thing.
Better that everyone get dragged down to the same level, than some students provide tomorrow's doctors and engineers, and thus do better than other students.
It's not going to work well for even the medium term. The US is not going to remain competitive, and there will be less wealth to distribute.
I agree with you that in my experience the teachers were mostly solid teachers, talented and caring, and not the time servers they are often made out to be. Except for the music teacher who did nothing but play movies
Give the parents a choice and a couple of decades. We know what we have now. Do you think the black and brown parents are incapable of picking the right school? Houston is one city. In many inner cities the dropout rate is 50% and the reading scores are sub 4th grade in grade 12. Again what is the system afraid of. Blaming the kids and parents for poor outcomes says it all. Generations of kids and parents have been treated to the same system. It will take years to fix the deficiencies. Parents know best. Good schools will thrive. Bad schools will fail. Teachers will teach. Poor people aren't stupid.
The wild success of many charter schools, despite some of their success being explained by selection bias, are all the counterexample one needs to the theory that poor schools are all the fault of the families that go to them. That theory was conventional wisdom and charter schools nuked it. I used to teach in the Bronx by the way.
KIPP schools only accept kids whom they can successfully educate. Same with Catholic schools. They have a contract that forces students and parents to do and provide all sorts of time and resources to the student, including mandatory meetings, homework, etc. When testing time comes around (KIPP schools), they can easily document non-compliance and ship the kid back to...you know, the zoned public school. We used to get these students all the time before state testing. When you have high expectations, with carrots and then sticks, you get results from some students. Public schools do not have that sort of stick, even mandatory requirements from parents. Same with private schools. Again, it falls on the student (and somewhat on the parent) do stand up and take that drink from the fountain.
Catholic schools, and private schools of all flavors have programs that accept 'all' kids. They will find the money to bridge the parent(s) money gaps for tuition if the parent can invest time in their children. They will even provide social/psychological support and volunteer systems to aid in tutoring. I'm not saying that is available in every urban setting, but it is in more urban settings than not.
This is Houston. "The Supporting Excellence in Inner City Catholic Schools provides students in our Inner City Catholic Schools with a quality education in a safe atmosphere that is conducive to learning and academic development. The Supporting Excellence appeal supports tuition assistance and assists in bridging the gap between tuition and the actual cost of educating a student." They provide school lunches, tutoring, the whole deal. And they deal with 'problem' kids, as long as the parent(s) support the structure/discipline they need to succeed.
My thought was always, if you have a system that is spoiled for choice and charter schools, do the kids who end up in the zoned schools really need or want HS anyway? I suspect more than half would be much happier out in an apprenticeship, learning a trade and earning a bit of cheddar, or just working. But the idea that anyone doesn't need high school or college sits outside the upper middle class imagination, and unfortunately such people have wayyy too much influence on inner city public school policy.
Glenn Loury did an interview recently with on YouTube at Triggernometry. The final question the interviewers ask every interviewee is 'what are we talking about that needs to be discussed?'. Loury mentioned, 'the need for inter-marriage'....but he didn't elaborate that much. I wondered whether he was referring to 'culture'?! We'll never know unless he decides to write about it.
Education was barely mentioned as an example of Systemic Racism. If Systemic Racism is more than a convenient rhetorical cudgel then why haven't the loudest voices mentioned the state of black education. Inner city education is abysmal. We know it’s bad and yet we do nothing. The people in charge routinely ask for more money then fail to fix things with the money. Which leads to requests for even more money. Money won’t solve the problem.
The system is broken. It’s a jobs program for education majors. If we used the same standards for food and drug companies how many would die. Would we give the companies more money and chances. Would we put up with the companies blaming their victims for the poor outcomes? There would be outrage and calls to close down the offending companies. But we put up with decades of failure - decades! We steal the future from generation after generation and the faculty lounge cowards and the corrupt politicians do nothing - say nothing - because there are no enemies to their left. We are killing these kids just as surely as if we fed them bad food or drugs.
It’s a disgrace. Why aren’t BLM, ANTIFA and the little white college kids and their out of touch professors marching and picketing and even rioting against these abattoirs? These kids don’t have a chance because they don’t have a CHOICE. They don’t have a choice because the shamelessly corrupt politicians only listen to their shamelessly corrupt funders and the shamelessly corrupt media. Shame on all of us. This is truly the civil rights issue of our time and we are failing to meet the challenge.
Better yet. Why are those social justice warriors not inside those classrooms, inside those neighborhoods, teaching those kids what they need to succeed? They ignore the real live kids that need help and instead go stand on a street for eight hours screaming how everything is wrong. Nobody is helped by someone standing in the street screaming.
Because Republicans refuse to pay higher taxes to fund schools that their kids don't attend.
The worst schools tend to be in the cities that are 100% controlled by Democrats and have been for decades. There's no Democrat/Republican divide to exploit here for political points.
Crap! What utter partisan divisive and unintelligent bollocks! Why is the Left's eternal kneejerk finger-pointing answer always that the GOP won't fork out more money? Look at the data - schools under Democrats AND Republicans have been given more money, more money, more money year after year, and NOTHING comes of it. The US spends FAR more money per student than any other country and has far less to show for it. It is a disgrace. Details show that money goes to salaries and more administrators, never to better teachers or better infrastructure or advanced teaching methods.
Matt Mullen works for a David Brock organization...so don't worry about what he says - even he doesn't believe it, he's just getting paid. They must have started a bonus pool based on insults, and MM is gunning for the top spot!
Democrats don't run schools. Local officials do. But states decide how much funding they get. It's not a coincidence that the deep red states score poorly compared to the deep blue states in education rankings. (Which are based on test scores and other factors).
Slicing your argument both ways, is a guaranteed win/win, at least in your own mind. Which urban cities/unions fought tooth and nail NOT to go back to school this year under the cover of COVID? Chicago, Los Angeles, San Fransisco, NYC-all Dem run cities. Teachers' unions donate to Democrat politicians in the millions and then Democrats pay them back by putting their needs before the students. The long term impact of the CHOICE not to teach in person will have devastating effects on urban children for a generation. https://www.rollcall.com/2021/04/28/donations-from-teachers-unions-spiked-as-congress-debated-school-reopening-virus-relief/
What buffoonery! Our children attended private (Catholic) school from K-12 grades and while choosing to pay for private education, we never once complained about paying taxes for our local public school district, which was one of the most diversified districts in our state. Quit with this crap already.
I mentioned the Republican Party. I wasn't talking to you personally. Do you deny that the Republican Party is opposed to raising taxes? That's their brand for God's sake!
Do you deny that the Dem party is opposed to fiduciary care?
Not sure what you mean. Are you talking about fiscal responsibility? If so, I do deny it. If you look at every president since Reagan Republicans have come into office and blown up the deficit with tax cuts and increased military spending. And every Democratic President since Clinton has brought the deficit down by raising taxes and cutting spending.
Not quite right. Every Democratic administration and every Republican administration in my lifetime has increased expenditures and obligations. The Democrats have tend to be "tax and spend" and the Republicans have tended to be "borrow and spend", but neither has cut spending. (Note that I'm not saying they should, just reporting accurately what they did and did not do).
Check the stats before you post that misunderstanding again.
But focusing on who is the President is misleading; most educational responsibility is still at the state and local levels, with the feds providing a smaller portion of both funding and direction (eg: textbooks and curriculum and teacher expectations are mostly determined at the state and local level).
"Republicans are opposed to raising taxes" equals "lousy schools"? Prove it with statistics. Dozens of countries spend far less per student than the US with much better results. It is NEVER a question of needing more money, it is a question of holding schools accountable for results, NOT the amount spent per pupil.
A lot of that has to do with the fact those countries spend more money to keep their kids out of poverty than we do, which doesn't show up in their per pupil spending. We started funding poorer schools better over the last few decades, and it has made a difference. Funding under funded schools works. But spending more money on wealthy students does almost nothing.
Get the guy with the gun (aka government) out of the education business . Free market +philanthropy + civic institutions will do a much better job!
We spend money to keep kids in poverty by funding single parent/mother households. That's crazy.
Free market + philanthropy are more efficient and way more moral than the big guy with the gun (aka government). Dems are authoritarian fascist at this point - censoring dissent, prosecuting their political opponents and mobilizing their BLM/Antifa stormtroopers to intimidate and destroy
Authoritarian fascist? You are an hysterical fool if you think America under Biden is like the Soviet Union under Stalin or China under Mao. Grow up and get a grip. Btw, violently trying to invade the capital building is illegal.
"Btw, violently trying to invade the capital building is illegal."
Sigh. Yes it was, and it's being aggressively prosecuted.
But it's going to be tiring if certain Democrats have to constantly bring up "Insurrection Insurrection Insurrection" as if it's relevant to every topic under discussion for the next few years (as Republicans brought up "Benghazi Benghazi Benghazi" previously).
The invasion of the Capitol was a very wrong and appalling action by a few hundred people (maybe two out of million of the US population), but invoking it doesn't make your arguments about other issues any more correct. Give it a rest and argue points honestly; let the prosecutors handle the invasion aftermath.
Ok you are simply tossing one non-sequitur after another. There is no coherence in your arguments, just left wing general complaints. Your answers do not relate to the questions. You are simply tossing insults, not making an actual argument.
Early days yet.
Not as early actually - we already have innocent people jailed for political reasons, purges in the army, censorship on the up and up and a society divided to an extreme ....
You are a despicable snowflake out of arguments, resorting to personal attacks, once you cluelessness about history and willful blindness show. Keep trolling though, while you are still entertaining.
You know American spends more per student than all other countries, right? And let’s not assume that this is a Republican vs. Democrat issue. Arguably American private school elites are progressives. This crosses political lines. The more we continue to treat parties like our ports teams, the more likely we we won’t evolve.
It’s not the funds that are causing kids to fail. Even one room schoolhouses back in the day were able to provide the basic learning our country needed its citizens to have to be able to live productive lives.
Why should they? The government is already robbing people blindly
Schools are local. Most of the failing districts haven't seen a Republican in decades. There is plenty of money in the system. Money is not the issue. In my local district they spend 20K+/student and still have leaky roofs and no books and high drop out rates. How is that possible?
Susan Russell4 hr ago
Most black schools are Democrat -black-run. And damage can be self-inflicted. Never was this more clear than the former, short-term chancellor Michelle Rhee's attempt to overhaul Washington DC 's notoriously poor public schools. She tried to get rid of a flotilla of sup-par teachers and administrative positions and encountered intractable opposition from same. That she was part Korean became an issue.--tensions developed "along racial lines." She was fired. This is tiring because it's circular and because it's so sad. No culpability, or responsibility at all. White supremacy is the culprit.
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/13/education/13schools.html
Most public schools are local and locally funded property taxes. Thus the richer suburbs are generally better funded than many inner city and rural school districts.
That’s not true in California. Every student gets base funding of at least $12k and if your district has more than 50% of its students that are either low income or English learners or foster youth, the district gets more money per student. That was changed so that low income districts didn’t suffer because of lower property taxes. And yet, those districts with low scores have not improved. It’s not an issue of Republicans not approving more taxes. In my low income district in CA, the district spent millions on programs in the high school to boost graduation rates, and I haven’t seen anything in any elementary school to help kids who are slipping behind in reading and math. Im not against increasing graduation rates, but I have noticed that the programs that get this money a lot of times are programs that certain influential parents have a soft spot for (and these are non-white parents).
What I have also seen is complaining teacher unions with too much power, and teachers bullying other teachers who do extra work afterschool to help those kids that need it. The quote about school being a jobs program for education degrees is accurate. Teachers expect higher pay for having more qualifications and training rather than having higher pay for better outcomes like people in the real world. Nothing will change until parents have an easier time getting out of a failing school and teachers are held accountable to both parents and their students’ improvement over the course of the school year.
I still say that those teachers don’t Iike the kids and don’t want to be in the classroom with them.
Valerie Jarrett says teachers have been breaking up knife fights for eons. No they don’t. They barely confront inappropriate behavior at all.
If a teacher gets three complaints to the school board from parents they can lose their eligibility for tenure. Details may vary, but you get the idea.
Teachers can call for help with a disruptive classroom and nobody comes to aid them in restoring order. Every class has about 4 behavior problems that make teaching the willing extra challenging.
Obama era rules now incentivize schools ignoring bad behavior if it is bad for stats to address it.
Nothing confirms my belief more than the post COVID schools where class sitters are hired to be in the room while the hybrid students attend class physically and the teacher zooms. That’s absurd.
If I had to do that job I would probably want that scenario too.
Our school district has so much messaging about "reducing the achievement gap" that I worry high achieving kids with the wrong skin color are actively discouraged. That's especially for teachers of color, with whom the "achievement gap" message is likely to resonate. Yay, racial justice!
Probably are.
Totally agree. SCHOOL CHOICE. I believe this to be a socioeconomic problem. Just as hard in Appalachia as it is in Chicago
I wrote about school choice in 1988 while working on my MA in Educational Leadership. It's incredible that it hasn't made more headway, at least in the Red states.
You are fooling yourself if you honestly believe that inner city education is the real culprit. So many good teachers; so much good instruction; so many programs. I taught in Houston ISD for 22 years to 75% hispanic, 24% black, and the rest Asian and white kids. I provided the same educational service and expertise that I provided in a mostly all white school beforehand. I went to HISD to give back. I taught AP Human, AP World, and APUSH. I had many kids pass the AP tests! However, overall scores were lower than the scores you would get in the Woodlands, which is predominately white, Asian and Indian. A better question to ask is what can black students and parents do to achieve the same high scores that Asian, white and Indian students and their parents do? The education is there; one has to avail themselves of the great opportunity that already exists, rather than blaming teacher unions or even teachers for their lack of achievement.
I taught in San Antonio (Edgewood ISD---the barrio) in the mid - late '80s and two of our teachers failed the TABS, Texas Assessment of Basic Skills. It was an 8th grade level test for teachers (Ross Perot) and they couldn't pass it. Poorer or more challenging school districts don't always get the caliber of teachers others do. As a matter of fact, many of the teachers I taught with were hired from the north. Our district sued to the state supreme court for fairer funding but that didn't mean we had the highest caliber of teachers or the support systems at home to fix all of the issues kids walked into the school with. The stories I could tell!
Have you read Thomas Sowell's "Charter Schools and Their Enemies"? He presents some very compelling data that points to severe short comings in traditional public schools driven by unions and bureaucratic administrations.
What can be asked is what can Black American students and parents do. African students and parents appear to be interchangeable with Indian and Asian ones in terms of giving their kids three options for life: Engineer, Doctor, and Failure.
I'm not saying this is the best way to raise kids, either. It puts a hell of a lot of pressure on them, and there's plenty room to succeed as something else in life, even financially. But a lot of Nigerian parents can put an Asian tiger mom to shame.
Sometimes when I really think about it, I think the only thing that will really help is when people simply refuse to start families until they get the hell out of their shitty neighborhoods. Seriously, if you are working three jobs and living in a shooting gallery, take the damn pill and wrap your junk until you are OUT OF THERE for good.
If the system is as good as you say then the parents will choose the system. The teachers aren't bad the system is. Let the parents decide. What is the system afraid of. How could the outcomes be worse?
You make some great points, X7COO. I work in education, and I gotta tell ya, things are BAD. And I don't even work in the public system.
Now, about this "system". The "system" of education is immense, and to my mind, it is like a mirror dropped onto concrete... it's in pieces all over the place. It begins in the womb, with proper nutrition, avoiding drugs and alcohol, getting sleep and moderate exercise, and getting proper medical attention. Even the stress level of the mother is a factor, as is her own overall physical condition. Then, kids are born, and they need to be properly fed, properly treated, properly cared for. They need to be taught numbers and letters and how to throw a ball and to feed and dress themselves. They need to be read to, every day. They need to be taught how to behave in society and get along with others. They need two parents, and a stable home life. They need the care of their parents, not to be shoved into daycare. Their parents need to set a good example. When kids get old enough for school, parents need to pay attention. Teachers need to be held accountable by active parents. Not all parents are good at being parents. Not all teachers are good at teaching. Most school administrators (understatement here) are not good at managing their schools. The whole mess needs to be constantly monitored, maintained, and repaired. It's kind of a monster, and in many cases, it's a monster left to run wild.
A woman I know wanted to teach school all her life. She went to a fine "Seven Sisters" school, got her degree and her credential, and took a job in suburban New England, teaching elementary school. The children were so out of control, and the parents so angry and threatening, that she lasted all of two years, and she was out, for good. This was not marginalized urban America, and it was not an impoverished school district. Her class size was not outrageous, and she had all the supplies and equipment she needed to teach. But the kids showed up for school poorly raised, poorly fed, poorly rested, and ill-behaved. They routinely told her to go f*** herself. When the parents were contacted, her life was threatened, "Do you want me to come down to that school and kick your sorry a**? Do your f***ing job!" Of course, legislation has stepped in, and made it impossible to discipline kids in schools, so it's a sticky situation. It only takes a couple of disrespectful individuals to disrupt an entire classroom.
Public schools can't raise your kids for you. That's not even how it's supposed to work. And when kids who are not being raised show up for school, it's pandemonium.
Now, I work in the private school world, and as you probably know, we actually do raise your kid for you. It's what we sell: We'll take your kids off your hands, teach them values, and teach them a college prep program that will get them into a good college someday. Look at their websites... "we create good citizens!" And that has its own problems, as the outsourced "raising" has morphed into indoctrination. Which, in a perverse way, makes sense... give someone license to teach your kids values, and whose values do you think they are going to teach them, yours or theirs?
A really large percentage of America attends public schools. A really large percentage of the kids are from one-parent households, and many of them say good-bye to mommy at 18 months or even earlier, and begin being raised by strangers. Public schools and educators have failed to adapt to these new conditions on the ground, with predictable results. For all you revolutionaries out there: Here's an area where a revolution is actually needed. School needs to be completely reinvented. (Summers off, still? What, are we all farmers?)
It's going to take a stroke of genius and a collective will to fix it. I'm not optimistic.
> Which, in a perverse way, makes sense... give someone license to teach your kids values, and whose values do you think they are going to teach them, yours or theirs?
Based on economics, I'd expect them to want to make the customers/parents happy.
Thank you for sharing this. Very perceptive: "give someone license to teach your kids values, and whose values do you think they are going to teach them, yours or theirs?" Outsourcing parenting to others allows them to take advantage. I also agree that the revolution has to start with education.
In Houston ISD there IS choice. And there is a local zoned school for those who do not or cannot avail themselves of choice. Schools are not bad; it's the kids and parents who make the school good or bad. Take all the kids in Houston and send them all for one year to a so-called good school in a suburb of Houston, basically an all white/Asian/Indian school. Bring all those kids and send to a so-called bad school in East Houston. Do you think you will see any difference in achievement? Yes, the school in East Houston would now be an exemplary school! It's mostly the kids and the parents.
Are you saying the problem is that parents haven’t been able to teach their children the value of a good education. And the students don’t have the will or discipline to use what the education system is offering them? Wouldn’t that, in circular fashion be a school problem also? I guess, no one can teach ambition, but it seems to be a whole system problem?
Since every human being born without consent and is socialized from birth, can't we consider every problem a whole system problem?
I'm not trying to be as snide as that might come across; what I mean is that of course, every present day factor leading to failure, like bad parenting, can be tied to some past failure (like their own parenting, or education, or addictions or interaction with law enforcement, whatever).
So today's school problem (eg: students who show up without the will or discipline to make use of the opportunities) may to some large or small degree be blamed on historical issues with other schools.
But if we're about fixing things, rather than creating a original blame narrative, we have to break the cycle somewhere. And I don't see how a school teacher or administrator can take on responsibility for all of the circular systemic problem - the other players need to be somewhat on board.
It's much more complex than this. I taught in the East Bronx for 10 years. You have schools with rampant gang activity and other misbehavior, and some judge prevents the school from kicking anyone out. So the class time is just an exercise in futility and the teachers have no choice but to retreat to basically trying to manage aggressive kids, and then the other kids give up. The kids drag the school down and the school drags the kids down in a cycle. Not to mention there is no nutrition. Some of the kids blow up like hot air balloons by 3rd grade. Your answer is surprisingly thin for your claimed experience.
Yes we are a rich country we can afford to feed the kids 5 times a day/365. We can afford to pay the teachers whatever is fair. It's a thankless job to teach difficult students. But we can't afford to continue to subject the concerned parents, the good kids and the good teachers to a failing system. Kids need structure as well as food. Perhaps in equal parts. We have to take an honest look at the status quo and ask why is it failing so many? Why is change so hard? Can real change happen in sclerotic bureaucracy? Some of these schools are so bad I say let a thousand Charters bloom.
Good points. Those are serious problems, and they give the appearance that the school is a failing school. Go ahead, make bricks without straw. Why is it the school or the teacher's fault when you are put in a near impossible situation of educating kids with so many issues that prevent learning from taking place? Again, not the teacher nor school's fault. Doesn't mean we don't try our darnedest to provide what we can to each and every one of our kids. We do not choose our students. We get what parents send us. But at some point a parent and the student must meet you at the school house door and take responsibility for their lives and learning.
Why haven’t cities decided to reevaluate the schools. It’s not as if we don’t have means of collecting data and hadn’t been able to observe schools over decades. Why stick with a failed model? If the system results are getting worse each year, then the system, itself, is the problem and needs to be reimagined. I’m not talking about the the subjects taught, but the whole concept of how schools function, what their purpose is and how would that outcome be provided for the majority of students.
The schools are run for the benefit of teacher's unions and not the students. Better to let the problem fester and use that as leverage to demand more funding.
How about preventing the troublemakers from dragging down the rest? Schools should be responsible fo what goes on inside. If they don't take responsibility, then parents need more power, as X7C wrote. In fact, parents are the ones whose interests most naturally align with education quality.
The common retort from a parent when a child is disciplined in the least now is to threaten lawsuit. The admin cowers and it's a revolving shit show. No one has a backbone anymore. There was a sweet spot between corporal punishment and no consequences at all but that seems to be all but lost now.
You are right...and what would you have schools do with troublemakers? Where can a school send them? Public schools that are so-called "bad" schools do not have the luxury of sending certain kids to other schools, and if they do send black and brown kids out, then they are blamed for the school to prison pipeline. My principal was scared to send even one kid out, so we had to keep them somewhere. You can't put them in ISS, because that looks too much like solitary confinement. It is just difficult to educate all students, plain and simple. I do not blame public schools one bit for the failures attributed to them.
Many countries have selective schools where better students go to one school and worse students to another. If parents could choose, that selectivity would also occur.
Those exist in a number of places today. However, the trend in recent times is either to eliminate the schools for better students entirely, or eliminate any testing or filtering of who gets to attend - which amounts to the same thing.
Better that everyone get dragged down to the same level, than some students provide tomorrow's doctors and engineers, and thus do better than other students.
It's not going to work well for even the medium term. The US is not going to remain competitive, and there will be less wealth to distribute.
Only the truly ignorant would treat education as a zero-sum game. Yet they are running our schools.
what if the parents don't care?
Then they are bad parents. Like it or not, life is a multi-generational effort.
I agree with you that in my experience the teachers were mostly solid teachers, talented and caring, and not the time servers they are often made out to be. Except for the music teacher who did nothing but play movies
Give the parents a choice and a couple of decades. We know what we have now. Do you think the black and brown parents are incapable of picking the right school? Houston is one city. In many inner cities the dropout rate is 50% and the reading scores are sub 4th grade in grade 12. Again what is the system afraid of. Blaming the kids and parents for poor outcomes says it all. Generations of kids and parents have been treated to the same system. It will take years to fix the deficiencies. Parents know best. Good schools will thrive. Bad schools will fail. Teachers will teach. Poor people aren't stupid.
The wild success of many charter schools, despite some of their success being explained by selection bias, are all the counterexample one needs to the theory that poor schools are all the fault of the families that go to them. That theory was conventional wisdom and charter schools nuked it. I used to teach in the Bronx by the way.
KIPP schools only accept kids whom they can successfully educate. Same with Catholic schools. They have a contract that forces students and parents to do and provide all sorts of time and resources to the student, including mandatory meetings, homework, etc. When testing time comes around (KIPP schools), they can easily document non-compliance and ship the kid back to...you know, the zoned public school. We used to get these students all the time before state testing. When you have high expectations, with carrots and then sticks, you get results from some students. Public schools do not have that sort of stick, even mandatory requirements from parents. Same with private schools. Again, it falls on the student (and somewhat on the parent) do stand up and take that drink from the fountain.
Catholic schools, and private schools of all flavors have programs that accept 'all' kids. They will find the money to bridge the parent(s) money gaps for tuition if the parent can invest time in their children. They will even provide social/psychological support and volunteer systems to aid in tutoring. I'm not saying that is available in every urban setting, but it is in more urban settings than not.
This is Houston. "The Supporting Excellence in Inner City Catholic Schools provides students in our Inner City Catholic Schools with a quality education in a safe atmosphere that is conducive to learning and academic development. The Supporting Excellence appeal supports tuition assistance and assists in bridging the gap between tuition and the actual cost of educating a student." They provide school lunches, tutoring, the whole deal. And they deal with 'problem' kids, as long as the parent(s) support the structure/discipline they need to succeed.
Your may have buried the lede :-) Your last sentence may be the most salient part of a good post.
My thought was always, if you have a system that is spoiled for choice and charter schools, do the kids who end up in the zoned schools really need or want HS anyway? I suspect more than half would be much happier out in an apprenticeship, learning a trade and earning a bit of cheddar, or just working. But the idea that anyone doesn't need high school or college sits outside the upper middle class imagination, and unfortunately such people have wayyy too much influence on inner city public school policy.
Culture is key as well
Glenn Loury did an interview recently with on YouTube at Triggernometry. The final question the interviewers ask every interviewee is 'what are we talking about that needs to be discussed?'. Loury mentioned, 'the need for inter-marriage'....but he didn't elaborate that much. I wondered whether he was referring to 'culture'?! We'll never know unless he decides to write about it.