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Celia M Paddock's avatar

"It is unserious to talk about renewables and not nuclear." <-- This is precisely why I cannot take climate alarmists seriously. For the past 20 years I've been hearing "Warmists" screaming about how we'll all die if we don't do something RIGHT NOW! But they persistently reject nuclear energy, despite the fact that it is the only short-term-feasible replacement for fossil fuels when it comes to generating on-demand electricity.

It's like saying you'll do ANYTHING to survive cancer...but you won't go through chemo, despite the fact that it's a proven treatment for your type of cancer. If you just take enough vitamins....

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Sea Sentry's avatar

Totally agree, Celia. They’re just not serious people.

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Just me's avatar

Celia, do you know:

Construction cost and lead time for nuclear and renewable?

Cost per MWh of power for nuclear and renewables?

And what about NIMBY and nuclear waste?

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Sea Sentry's avatar

Most of what you cite as obstacles are regulatory issues other countries have long since dealt with. Cost is generally higher than subsidized renewables , but reliable baseload power is vital, and recycling issues are much more manageable with nuclear, as is initial carbon footprint.

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Celia M Paddock's avatar

Do you? If it's a question of saving the planet, does it matter?

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Just me's avatar

I asked the questions to see if you were for nuclear energy because the tree-hugging leftists were against it, or you understood the pros and cons of nuclear power. I want to see if your comment was rational or emotional! Your reply makes it clear it wasn’t a thinking comment but an emotional comment.

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Bruce Miller's avatar

The costs are not useful as the nuclear costs are based on the current 1950s tech dinosaurs. New gen nukes are smaller (400 MW or so), don't need complicated ECCS's, and can be standardized and stacked. Not remotely comparable to the siting nightmares of the old nukes. The new designs reduce the cost, the environmental impact and the security concerns.

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Just me's avatar

Bruce, I understand there is research been done on nuclear reactors, unless I missed something, at this point it’s not much more than a pig in a poke! Do you know something I don’t?

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jt's avatar

I was gonna come back and tell Ya how I've been at the computer for about 14 hours now, and didn't get my walk in, which makes me irritable. Nor had lunch.

And then I was gonna apologize for being short, and calmly explaining what I *know* about what's been going on that You weren't aware of.

But You're such a snot-nosed snarky individual, that I'm glad I saw Your other comment before I did ANY-a that, but You don't deserve to be talked to with ANY respect, Just me.

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jt's avatar

Just me, what You know amounts to a thimble full. You're just too full-a Yourself to know it.

There are at least ONE, and I believe TWO of these reactors BEING BUILT, FOOL.

Try to look at things as they are. Not the way You WISH they were.

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jt's avatar

Troll! You here again! Why don't You answer Your own questions, and then juxtapose them against the costs for renewables. And don't forget land mass it'll take to house all those bazillion renewable in Your analysis.

IOW, if You don't have anything of account to post here, why don't You take Your pretend-questions to somebody who will listen to Your tripe.

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Just me's avatar

jt, your immaturity keeps shining through!

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jt's avatar

I'm trying to recall how old You are, Just me. Oh yeah, young enough that You wanna pretend age doesn't matter.

I think You mistake me for someone who's concerned, at ALL, about what other people think of me. I'm not like YOU, Just me. I grew UP a long time ago. Before You were born.

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Sea Sentry's avatar

OK you two, calm down. Go take your GMO puppies for a walk, hydrate, then go back at it like new.

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jt's avatar

Lol. I'm done with Just me. But *next* time I'm takin' the kid gloves off!

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Apr 18, 2022
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Just me's avatar

Pops, I’m telling you nothing, merely asking questions that apparently upset some.

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Bruce Miller's avatar

So true. We are transforming our electric grid to rely on unreliable wind and solar. This is madness and cannot end well. Worse, we are adding to the electricity demand by turning to electricity to heat homes and phasing our gas and oil, and to transforming our gasoline and diesel vehicles to electric vehicles. So, at the same time we are drastically increasing demand we are looking to fill that demand with unreliable sources. It is not hyperbole to say that people - maybe many people - will pay a terrible price in being unable to afford the transformation and then sickness and death when the grid fails.

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Sea Sentry's avatar

If we can’t break the grip of the morons running this country, you’d better tell your grandkids to learn Mandarin and how to do the laundry of their future overlords.

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Lynne Morris's avatar

We see how it is playing out in that bastion of green, California - rolling blackouts.

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Sea Sentry's avatar

As a lifelong native, what is going on in California is nothing less than Kafkaesque. Newsom has managed the impossible- to be a parody of himself.

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Shane Gericke's avatar

And the grid WILL fail, make no mistake. It's barely functioning as it is, held together with bailing wire and boogers. That America's linemen and women keep it together as well as they do is a testament to the hard workers on power poles in the middle of twisters and storms. But we can't keep adding demand to the grid and not expect it to collapse if we don't rebuild and harden it.

Putting all our energy eggs in one basket--be it electric, fossil, wind, whatever--is foolish. We should generate from a lot of sources and replace older technology with newer as it becomes proven. No reason to not use everything we know now while looking for good supplementary and replacement generation systems.

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Sea Sentry's avatar

All of the above is China’s energy policy. We could do a lot worse, but they don’t waste time listening to uninformed climate hand-wringers.

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Lynne Morris's avatar

Exactly. The proverbial cart is well ahead of the horse. Plus what works in one area of the country will not work well in others.

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Bruce Miller's avatar

And may I add, it is also folly not to harden our grid against EMP, whether naturally caused or by a malevolent actor or actors. Regardless of political views, as Bill and I show, reasonable people can still solve 95% of our problems by agreeing on the facts.

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Shane Gericke's avatar

Yes. The liberal-center-conservative spectrum is, by and large, agreeable on most issues. Not all, but enough to make our society a whole lot better than the fractured granite it is now. The wings of right and left, amplified by media and social media, cause a LOT of rage without offering any good solutions.

Me, I just want a society that's fixing its problems, loving its present and future, and not screaming at The Other till their veins pop. That doesn't make us better, it only puts money in the pocket of the clicks-and-likes brigade.

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Lynne Morris's avatar

Love "clicks-and-likes brigade".

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Shane Gericke's avatar

Thanks, Lynne! I have my moments :-)

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Dennis Mills's avatar

Your last sentence, William, is pure gold. We all need to understand that our rage changes nothing except the profits made by the most strident outlets.

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Shane Gericke's avatar

Thank you, Dennis. We are the product, they make all the money!

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jt's avatar

You both make excellent points!

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jt's avatar

Wonder how much of the Infrastructure Bill went for that. Just asking, as have *no* idea. If I were to guess, probably none. Rebuilding and hardening *too* good an idea.

Yeah on second paragraph. Nuclear proven. New generations being built as we speak. Mebbe another *too* good an idea. WSS.

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Shane Gericke's avatar

Some of the infrastructure bill was designated for grid improvements. But not enough to be very useful.

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Bruce Miller's avatar

Answer - very little. We have an antiquated grid, coupled with rising demand and increasingly unreliable generation. In other words, a recipe for disaster.

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Lynne Morris's avatar

I live in Texas and the snowpocalypse of 2021 was very eye-opening.

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Shane Gericke's avatar

Yes. I see no signs that Abbott & Co. have done anything to prevent a repeat, either. Have you see any signs of ice-proofing the terminals, etc.?

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Skinny's avatar

But why are we allowing this surely to God we aren’t the only people on this forum who realize this President Trump told us how many times in the run up to 2020 that Democrats will go back to the green new deal he told us that migrants will be crossing in bus loads at the southern border just two things which have proved correct and in spite of all his warnings we voted Joe Biden in before we can go up we have to get out of this mess how we do that is anyone’s guess but we have got to do something and quickly

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Skeptical but Optimistic's avatar

I was talking to friends about this last night. We all know people who actually WOULD cast a vote for Biden again in 24. Even knowing about the cognitive decline and all the messes they would still vote for him if it meant not voting for Trump. Insanity.

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Skinny's avatar

Total insanity! Beyond belief in fact just to keep President 45 out

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jt's avatar

This is just one person's guess. But I would think the best bet would be to vote in numbers in '22. And then put forth an ELECTABLE Republican in '24. I don't see that as being Trump. Sure, ICBW. But looking at Repubs, Dems, AND Independents, I just don't see Trump as "a happenin' thang."

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Skeptical but Optimistic's avatar

Agree. It can't be Trump. Too divisive. The Dems are like a jilted spouse / lover who never lets it go and won't stop talking about it.

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Sea Sentry's avatar

Agree jt. Trump needs to step back if he really cares about our country. His policies are sound, but his personality is toxic.

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jt's avatar

I'd be *amazed* if that even came into his consideration whether to run or not. Beyond smackgobbed.

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madaboutmd's avatar

I think Melania will tell him to go to hell if he says he wants to run again. Why would she stand for four more years of the absolute crap she and Baran took. I mean Trump can handle what comes his way, but M & B are collateral damage and that might just put her over the cliff. I don't think he'll run....he'll just be king maker.

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jt's avatar

Nice. Interesting view and could be right.

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Celia M Paddock's avatar

That's how I feel. At this point, I'd like to see DeSantis, with Nikki Haley as the VP candidate. Although I wouldn't at all object to Nikki Haley as the presidential candidate in her own right.

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Sea Sentry's avatar

I agree. That’s a strong ticket.

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Skinny's avatar

Maybe not but we need a seriously strong Republican male to take on Big Tech and the corporations I don’t see anybody else emerging at this stage but politics is very strange who would have predicted Trumps first win and then predicted a Biden win with a female as the Veep

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Lynne Morris's avatar

I thought Trump was a great President (based on policies not personality necessarily) but I think he will motivate the opposition either to turn out in droves or to rig another election.

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Skeptical but Optimistic's avatar

For sure! It can't be Trump.

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james p mc grenra's avatar

jt...without a second coming, next Pres. election will be a runaway...guess who?

No other option, get your cymbals ready for celebration, you can do.

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jt's avatar

You always make me smile. But this time I'm laughin' AT You, not WITH You. Seriously, tho, it isn't so much that I don't want it to happen. It's that it'll hurt the Repubs in the long run.

Say You're right and Trump wins. Wanna bet what happens four years later? Pendulum swings the other way. You want someone who'll push the pendulum in one direction and HOLD it there, right? Trump makes as many enemies as he does friends, right?

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james p mc grenra's avatar

jt...i could not figure, till now. makes sense. That is very close to the way i felt(for a while) while walking to place my ballot, 2016, i was going to vote Hillary. Peeps would hate her so much , For Good Reason, we would not have Shumor, Pilosi, Biden, Shiffty et al.

Trunpty is not the only one, but he Did show his abilities.

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Skinny's avatar

I disagree with you on the swing of the pendulum if you don’t have Trump from 2024 - 2028 the power will swing back to the Dems if you have Trump and a decent Veep 2028 - 2032 will remain in Republican hands Trump’s a maverick and his Veep would have had 4 years to understand his plan to carry on the implementation of it I think you will see a different Presidency to how he governed as 45 he won’t take the same shit and I presume he will have the majority in the senate and the house but like I said politics is a strange game and maybe it will be Kamala which means it will be a tough time for the US!

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Terry's avatar

Trump has 75 million votes in the bag, and that's not counting the disaffected Democrats who have buyer's remorse right now.

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jt's avatar

You're a dreamer. I can be too.

But what You're counting on is that there will be more Dems crossing over than Repubs running away from Trump. Do I *know*? Nup.

Do I think the crossover will make up for all the Independents than run *away* from Trump. My estimate is no way, Jose. Also consider that 1/3 of Trump's own *party* doesn't believe the election was stolen, and that Trump is the acknowledged master of spreading, to quote his OWN WORDS, "disinformation."

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Lucy's avatar

Trump is a no-go for me. Dear Lord we need a third party.

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jt's avatar

You sold me on it!

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Terry's avatar

A lot can happen between now and November 2024. There's more information coming out all the time, such as the recent cell phone tracking data on the "mules" stuffing ballot boxes. Right now, the stolen-election school of thought is gaining popularity.

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jt's avatar

I gave Ya a like for Your effort. But, no. The overwhelming majority of Americans are NOT gonna believe the election was stolen, mainly because it wasn't.

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Terry's avatar

It wasn’t an election. It was a harvesting of ballots.

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Bruce Miller's avatar

Said it before and I'll say it again. I like Trump and love his policies. I think he was treated badly, unfairly and probably illegally.

STILL - he will be 78 when he runs and, if elected will be 82 at the end of his term. No. Enough septuagenarians. Trump can be an elder statesman. I want a younger man or woman to lead us.

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William's avatar

Couldn’t agree more.

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Terry's avatar

He seems just as cogent and energetic as ever. He's a young 76.

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Dennis Mills's avatar

I am a couple of years older than Donald Trump and thus think your view will be nearly unanimously shared by voters in the next presidential election, Bruce.

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Pat Robinson's avatar

The election was stolen by the media and social media acting as gatekeepers and enforcers for the democrats, hiding information and only letting most people to see what they wanted them to see.

Hunter Biden laptop for example.

At least as egregious as stuffing ballot boxes. I see many people online who are A-ok with information being withheld if it supports their "side".

These people are far more dangerous to democracy than any Trump supporter

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jt's avatar

The Hunter Biden? Yeah.

The ballot boxes. Nup.

Me? I don't *have* a side. So I think that gives me an advantage in seeing things clearly. Sure, I Could Be Wrong. Say it all the time.

Trump supporters a danger? Not as far as I know. Trump? Worst thing that happened to Democracy, bar none. That's an opinion that can be backed up with facts, but my day's done.

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William's avatar

Biden won 1 of 19 bellwether counties, paused vote counting, massive ballot dumps at 4am all for one candidate. If you’re not skeptical I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

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Terry's avatar

Trump was the first potus in decades to NOT abuse Presidential power. Open your eyes, man!

Clinton flagrant abuse of power, many horrible scandals, handed China vast unearned privileges. Rwanda genocide.

Bush - Iraq and Patriot Act, need I say more?

Obama - sicced IRS on conservative non-profits, imposed horrible mandates on the people via EO's and Democrat narrow majority fiat. Oh and invaded Libya, destroying north Africa stability. Practically declared war on Israel.

Trump - first president in 100 years not to start a war. Refused to send federal troops into rioting cities. Tolerated traitors and liars in his own Administration. Tolerated blatant lying by dishonest white house press corps. Put up with one false accusation after another. Doggedly pursued his goals of making America great, in the face of the most frenzied opposition in U.S. history.

So... if you hold Trump as the worst thing that happened to democracy, methinks you're confused. But, you're not the only one.

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Bruce Miller's avatar

"We" kemosabe?

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Apr 18, 2022
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Lynne Morris's avatar

They can't transmit it effectively.

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Sea Sentry's avatar

Right, Lynne. Power loss over transmission lines from wind and solar is very substantial.

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Apr 19, 2022
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Sea Sentry's avatar

Because you can’t locate a solar or wind farm in the middle of a city, where energy demand is greatest. Longer transmission lines = greater energy loss.

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Apr 20, 2022
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Sea Sentry's avatar

I assume that is tongue in cheek, Golfer. Am I missing something?

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Apr 19, 2022
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Lynne Morris's avatar

Wind farms are often a great distance from the place where the power will be used. AC current does not carry well over long distance.

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Apr 19, 2022
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Lynne Morris's avatar

I have not found the ERCOT transmission lines yet (I kind of hope it is not too easy to find) but I found one that shows for 4/19/22 they can guarantee a demand of 55,000 MW and wind and solar combined generated less than 25,000 KW.

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Lynne Morris's avatar

I was reading another article. One of the disadvantages of wind and solar is transmission. First the farms are tyoically pretty remote and that means building lines to the farms. But once ready to connect to existing lines, thosetransmission lines are traditionally high capacity to accommodate electricity generated by traditional fossil fuels, which apparently are capable of producing reliable quantities of electricity. Wind (and solar) farms produce less kw per unit of generation than traditional fossil fuels, so if the wind/solar producers pay the standard rate for the transmission they are disadvantaged. Part of the lower kw per unit is, guess what, if the wind is not blowing or the sun isn't shining they are not producing. So the operator could have paid for use of a line and have nothing to send. Uh oh. I think part of the carbon cap plan is to increase the cost of carbon fuels to make wind and solar more competitively priced. But this overlooks a few things starting with it is not free market competition. It will also dramatically increase the cost of all electricity for everyone.

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Apr 20, 2022
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Lynne Morris's avatar

Not an engineer. My daughter is an digital cartographer. Her first job was mapping the easements for the West Texas wind farms. This was 10 years ago. From the way she described it there were problems. I am sure it is better now but from what I read it is not an efficient way to produce power unless propped up.

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Prospect Park Panther's avatar

Don't even get me started on nucular!

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Apr 18, 2022
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Prospect Park Panther's avatar

I think it was Ike as well... Funny how the "most educated" used to mock W for being a dimmwit and a mere puppet in the hands of Dick Vader. They still mock W, but somehow cane to like Dick...

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Lynne Morris's avatar

Because his daughter is kissing their, well you know.

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Timothy G McKenna's avatar

Yeah, but let's be serious, here - nuclear is a proven technology that hucksters can't wheedle hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars out of our government for specious research into pie-in-the-sky ideas.

It's a technology that is controlled by established utilities and not new enough to create the entirely new economic sector controlled by John Kerry, Al Gore, Ed Markey, AOC, and all of their Chablis-swilling pals on Nantucket, the Vineyard, the Hamptons, and Montecito.

THAT's why nuclear is not acceptable to these folks...

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Vaughn's avatar

BOOM

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Pat Robinson's avatar

"Electrification" means tripling the installed grid. Currently wind and solar provide 3% of the primary energy used in the usa.

3%.

After $trillions spent.

As electrification with renewables can only occur with magic batteries, right now its costed at ~$400 Trillion.

And that is probably low.

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Jon's avatar

We have a Bingo! Most of our major problems today are based on Mega industries and governments (China) trying to push public policy in a way that isn't in the best interests of the citizens, but is in the best interests of the Elite, or China specifically.

I assume that much of the strategy and financial backing for the Climate movement is coming from China. They win twice: Their major enemy takes on policies that cripple it's economy, and their enemy also become a major consumer of solar panels and rare earth minerals, both of which China own the markets of. This is the new version of war.

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james p mc grenra's avatar

Jon...not sure about "council", but between the News Media and China, you can find the Nest.

Been warming, long before man got here. China with 600 huge coal plants and plans for 120 more J. Bridger coal plants, now building 3 new plants.

Cargo ship "Felicity"(?) , Atlantic Ocean, goes under with 3800 new cars, EV batteries aboard. Very little news, but the crew evacuated and my guess, they could not put out the fire, because of the EV (lithium) batteries.

Major Problems being covered...Lies.

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Matt Mullen's avatar

Most climate activists are on board with some type of nuclear.

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Sea Sentry's avatar

Not true, Matt. But they should be.

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Celia M Paddock's avatar

Strange that we never hear them pushing for it. Who is keeping their support for it out of the media?

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JD Free's avatar

Name one.

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jt's avatar

For every one You mention, can You name three don't back nuclear? Or ten. Or ... That's what I thought.

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Jim C's avatar

Since when? I mean it's possible that a turn has come about in the past several months but let's be real. Climate activism and no-nuclear energy activists have been one and the same.

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Timothy G McKenna's avatar

No. They're not. Some? Maybe. Most? I disagree.

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Jon's avatar

What, is it possible that they're not really interested in what they say they're interested in? Is it possible that there are industries simply trying to make money off of a cause? Thank God that's not happening with the race/gender/COVID causes.

Or, maybe not causes as much as businesses.

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jt's avatar

Yeah. Grifter, Inc.

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jt's avatar

WELL-said, M. Celia!

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Apr 18, 2022
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Celia M Paddock's avatar

The envirowackos have been opposing hydro at every turn for decades, always on the theory that it will kill some sub-species of fish or frog that is somehow irreplaceable. And yet that species is more important than the whole planet (as they claim)?

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Jon's avatar

And that fundraising comes from Al Gore's bosses, the wind energy/solar panels and China.

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jt's avatar

Funny thing is the goal ever *is* reached, they don't disband but go out and find *another* cause. "Fundraising needs enemies to be opposed to." Big salaries, as opposed to anything approaching common horse-sense, right?

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Apr 18, 2022
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Celia M Paddock's avatar

I remember that back in the 70s it was a new ice age they were warning about. I suspect those of us who are old enough to remember that have always had a bit more skepticism about "global warming."

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Dennis Mills's avatar

Amen Theo. I'm one of those guys. We'll probably be in nursing homes before the nit-wit class gets even a hint about the wrongs they have foisted upon all of us.

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Skinny's avatar

If we don’t make them own up for their wrongs they will continue to grift us and our children their children and our great great grandchildren if there will be anything left for them to steal we have to change the dynamics now if we have any chance of making things right

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Dennis Mills's avatar

I'll offer you a wry smile, Michele, for your comment. I'm far too old to become a major force for change in our culture and society.

All I have to offer is 8 decades of observing the origins of how such values as fellowship, personal responsibility, and belief in a higher power fell by the wayside.

I have witnessed the genesis of the civil rights movement in the 50s, including the police and citizens who used billy clubs and rocks to beat down peaceful marchers.

During the 60s I saw the race riots and the beginnings of a wide spread malaise in our nation.

The 70s were even worse for the soul of our country in terms of losing trust in government institutions, shortages of gasoline and diesel fuel, and a feeling of helplessness.

The 80s brought back a rebirth of optimism, and by the end of the decade most of us realized our bumbling peanut farmer was far more talented at helping people build homes for those who were down and out. He was a class act in retirement!

Since then, I've stood idlely by as academics, school administrators and even our churches adopted ideas that exhibited an innate disdain towards the ideals I was taught as a boy and a young adult.

I see elements of such disdain in the left as well as the right wings of our political system.

All I can do is pray that my grandchildren will inherit a better society.

Thank you for your insightful comment Michele.

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Skinny's avatar

8 decades of wisdom for which I thank you Dennis it’s people like you who will always make a difference to all of us there must be millions of us out there like you who may not have 8 decades under their belts but who truly believe that we can be and are a great nation please God it will be good again 🇺🇸🇺🇸

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Dennis Mills's avatar

Thank you Michele for your kind response to my mini-essay.

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