I'm appreciative of this writing making clear his politics in framing the report the way he did. I now know I can dismiss it entirely with respect to any importance on this topic.
If our diplomats and spies are suffering this from social contagion, we're in even worse shape than we thought.
While it's possible, how likely is it? The cases occurred, not in a relatively compressed time, but sporadically over several years in widely separated locations. That they are concentrated in a particular profession/workplace is somewhat suspicious, but then both the profession and the workplaces are also plausible targets of a hostile intelligence service. One problem with the social contagion theory is that there's no way to prove it. Normally, if we can exclude any known alternative explanation, then an unprovable but still plausible hypothesis is the best explanation, for the time being, anyway.
While there is no technology known that could produce these symptoms in a deliberate, directed way, neither was radiation poisoning understood for a few decades after radioactive elements were isolated. At least in theory, Madame Curie could have eliminated a rival by slipping a teaspoonful of radium into her tea and no toxicologist at the time would have known what to look for. In the 1980s a few American military pilots reported blinding effects when near Russian fighters. It was speculated that lasers may have been used, though I don't know what became of that idea.
Havana Syndrome reminds me of the of the videos of objects moving in bizarre ways that Navy pilots have taken. Nobody thinks they're simply a hoax, and while there have been suggestions they are light artifacts of some kind, nothing definitive has been announced. You'd think the Navy would be on top of something like that.
More data would be helpful, no? How hard would it be to design and make high-energy RF detectors and distribute them widely among diplomatic and intelligence staff? The goal would be to detect blasts of RF energy across a range of frequencies. Delicate sensitivity would not be required. In the event that high power RF was detected at a location, more precise instruments could be deployed. Then make a similar effort to make and distribute detectors for high-energy ultrasound.
That reported symptoms included those expected from exposure to high-energy RF and those expected from exposure to high-energy ultrasound does not discredit the reports. A capable attacker might well deploy both.
Even if a wide deployment of detectors yielded uniformly negative results (i.e. zero detections), it would bring us a big step closer to sorting out the causes of HAVANA episodes.
First check the party affiliation of all the alleged victims. If they're mostly, or all, Democrats, one can reasonably assume this is nothing more than either a hoax or mass psychosis.
The symptoms of the first sufferer seem consistent to me with an acute vertigo attack (and recurrence, two weeks later). The leap toward assuming he was targeted could have initiated a "contagion" among other agents. For example, much of the population has some form of tinnitus (and for me it does in fact sound like crickets), which is known to become exacerbated by focusing on it, and the only "cure" is literally to train your brain to de-prioritize the sounds. Havana Syndrome seems very similar to me to the cases of teens acquiring Tourette Syndrome from TikTok, and many more children than in the past experiencing body dysmorphia. I would love to see medical researchers look into how the internet can fuel contagions like this. In this case "text chains, WhatsApp messages, and private facebook groups" took the place of TikTok for these agents.
Xactly what happens... When "the great way is lost". The US has this Very Nice building, for what?
Not too much faith remains for our Judges, FBI, CIA, DOJ, Congress, Cabinets and then , oh my,
the gobble-dy-gook Media. Try to wrap up all the crap and place "IT" in the Cuba emblazon Embassy.
Which by the way could be a nice place for our homeless.
Back to business...People "out there" invent all kinds of things, like burning down 50 foot xmas trees FOR whatever. And we also could have "copy cats" just for attention...happens, "when the great way is lost"...yepper.
miles...and and and the voters took over from the corrupt Pa. judges. A so called Blue Bluff State, gone Racehorse Red on the election for their judges. The voters could not stand for the Cheaters...oh plea
I wonder if the cause is an attempt at eavesdropping. Using microwaves or something else to pick up human voices. That might explain why diplomats and spies are targeted.
Psychogenic is the most likely. This presentation is quite similar to other episodes of mass psychogenic hysteria. As others have pointed out, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. And the passion of the detractors and believers reminds me of the era of repressed memory, and multiple personality disorder, where so called experts were oh so certain, only to be summarily dismissed, losing careers and reputation. And the lives and families destroyed were far too many before we came to our senses. These cycles repeat themselves regularly. Add to it the claimed entitlement of compensation and justification for one's symptoms, can lead one to easily see the forces in play the propagate the expansion of cases, and the resistence to consider psychogenic causes.
On another note, Substack of all places put on Eric Tolpo - a known Big Pharma propagandist - as a “writer in residence.” I love that Substack is a platform for anyone, but having now been bought out by big pharma, it’s questionable if this platform is even real anymore. I can hardly watch TV anymore because it’s inundation with big pharma commercials - being funded by my tax dollars (and yours!!!). And now Substack is PAYING a big pharma propagandist to be on this platform. So disappointed. 😩. If they want to write on the platform like everyone else fine. Paying a propagandist to write on here makes me wonder if this whole thing isn’t just another manipulative mirage…..
This concluding observation rang a bell, “we remain convinced that the very bad thing that is happening to us is being imposed from the outside—a mysterious force infiltrating our homes and warping our brains.” That conspiracist mentality underlies most antisemitic thought. It may only be a matter of time before someone claims that the Rothschild Space Laser is behind Havana Syndrome.
When the magicians Penn & Teller had their second Broadway show, Penn ended it with an important statement. When we search for an explanation, rather than admit to the uncertainty of not knowing, we should avoid the certainty of a false explanation. Yet, five years seems a long time.
Common Sense is one of the best things going in journalism today, but what's with the gratuitous attack on Trump? Savodnik concludes his piece by editorializing "... five years after America veered off its prescribed historical-political course, we remain convinced ..." That's an opinion that has nothing to do with the subject of the piece.
It's obvious how Bari Weiss feels about Trump (she referred to him as "grotesque" in a Megyn Kelly podcast a few months back), but if she's pursuing journalism in the old school sense (i.e. objectively), then this kind of aside is unhelpful and might alienate an otherwise supportive segment of the readership.
There's a good reason for that - reminding the "otherwise supportive segment of the readership" that she has not drunk the MAGA Koolaid and has no intentions to.
It's a preventative measure to nip any expectations of audience capture in the bud.
Oh, give me a break! It's all a part of the big game the US has been playing ever since the CIA was created in 1947. "Diplomats" have close ties to the "intelligence community" and the anti-intelligence agencies in other countries know it, just like the FBI knows that foreign diplomats work for their country's intelligence agencies. It's all part of the game - you fuck with us, we'll fuck with you. The United States assumes this persona that we're so great we're above it all but we're really down there in the mud with all the rest. There's a reason the US classifies information - to keep the American people from knowing what they do in our name.
Mr. Savodnik discredits himself and his essay by asserting that those claiming injury are all "of us" and that "our" brains are being "warped." The affected group is, what, 200? All reported a particular collection of symptoms contracted after they were in virtually identical circumstances. Bari Weiss owes her readers more respect than to publish such tripe.
"There was also the question of timing. Havana Syndrome arrived on the American scene at the end of a tumultuous presidential campaign that had left tens of millions of Americans feeling unsure of what came next: Was the country about to be taken over by fascists?"
Um, no. It *wasn't* the "tumultuous presidential campaign".
It was the pathological, deliberate, willful lies and dishonesty and malfeasance of the alphabet legacy media's REPORTING (sic) on the presidential campaign that was greatly responsible FOR the tumultuousness of the presidential campaign and that was greatly responsible FOR the uncertainty felt by many Americans.
Let's be sure we call a spade a spade, please.
The alphabet legacy media are the cancer among us. Trump WAS right. They are enemies of the American people, of both sides of the aisle, of all sides of the aisle.
Trump sure made it easy for the alphabet media, by openly announcing his intention to fabricate claims of fraud in the event that he lost. Which, sure enough, is exactly what he did, up to the point of inciting a mob as extra leverage over Mike Pence.
How many of the J6ers have been charged with the crime of "insurrection"? How many J6ers were apprehended with firearms and/or charged with firearms crimes or violations?
So it was an insurrection in which none of the participants has yet been charged with "insurrection", and an insurrection in which none of the participants brought a firearm to the party.
NOTHING that you think happened, happened. Anywhere.
Trump's legal team went 0-60 in court with their bullshit fraud cases. That shit happened, and the court transcripts are actually pretty hilarious to read. The judges were seriously unimpressed that Trump's lawyers were wasting their time with such obvious bullshit.
Between that and the Capitol riot (which was largely a pressure tactic on Pence), it's a fair comment for BW to refer to "a tumultuous presidential campaign that had left tens of millions of Americans feeling unsure of what came next: Was the country about to be taken over by fascists?"
The problem wasn't the cases as originally filed which looked to anomolies and improper methods of changing voting requirements (agencies changing rules w/out authority to do so, etc) which violated due process and equal protection; legit theories. Whether they would have succeeded or not who can tell, if they succeeded would it have produced a different outcome? Who knows.
BUT the Rudy Guiliani got involved and started banging the desk with claims of fraud. The original attorneys were made to look like fools by this jackass and the legit questions were never addressed.
It almost certainly wouldn't have changed the outcome for 2 reasons:
1) The cases were not filed until well after the election, which raises the concern of "rolling the dice" on the outcome (ignore the issues if we win, but file cases if we lose). That's a huge legal no-no.
2) The intervention the cases called for (throwing out votes) is a cure that's worse than the disease. Voters followed the rules they were given; if they'd been given different rules, then who knows how those voters might have cast their ballots differently?
The only way the initial cases MIGHT have had a shot was if they asked for a "do-over", but that wasn't what they filed for. As soon as the original lawyers asked the judges to start throwing out votes, their cases were toast.
miles, you need a calendar and a reading comprehension specialist.
You wrote "Between that [Trump's alleged court losses) and the Capitol riot (which was largely a pressure tactic on Pence), it's a fair comment for BW to refer to "a tumultuous presidential campaign that had left tens of millions of Americans feeling unsure of what came next: Was the country about to be taken over by fascists?""
Um, I hate to break the news to you, but the "tumultuous presidential campaign" referenced in the article is the 2016 one, not the 2020 one! The alleged fascist takeover fear was...Trump's legitimate election in 2016.
THAT is why *I* wrote,
"It was the pathological, deliberate, willful lies and dishonesty and malfeasance of the alphabet legacy media's REPORTING (sic) on the presidential campaign that was greatly responsible FOR the tumultuousness of the presidential campaign and that was greatly responsible FOR the uncertainty felt by many Americans...the alphabet legacy media are the cancer among us. Trump WAS right. They are enemies of the American people, of both sides of the aisle, of all sides of the aisle."
As I recall it didn't break the news until well after 2016. If Bari was talking about the 2016 campaign, then yeah, I'd agree that what she wrote was pretty over the top.
I'm going to agree with 'Andrew the Great', you're reading comprehension needs work miles. You are continually referencing Bari Weiss as the author of this article when in fact it was written by Peter Savodnik - do better guy
"Havana Syndrome arrived on the American scene at the end of a tumultuous presidential campaign..." ~ Havana Syndrome arrived in late 2016.
Heck, the very start of the article is, "The first person to report strange symptoms was a CIA officer posing as a diplomat at the U.S. embassy in Cuba.
Sorry, can’t let total falsehoods go by. Trump didn’t go 0 for 60 because there never were court cases, the judges refused to hear them based on standing. Chickens all.
Quite frankly any voter should have standing because a fraudulent vote cancels the legal voter. But that’s a different topic.
Just suffice it to say, great try at gaslighting, but no dice.
The reason the judges threw out the cases on standing was because Trump's lawyers were arguing for retroactive changes to vote eligibility rules. They might have run their mouths on Fox News and Twitter about having smoking-gun fraud cases, but in court (where they could get disbarred if they perjured themselves), they played it much safer, and only put forward rule-dispute arguments like "Well if this mail-in voting rule had hypothetically been different, then these 400,000 votes would have hypothetically been ineligible".
That's a bit like playing the Superbowl, losing, and then after the game is over, trying to get the ref to backdate an alternate rulebook, and overturn a bunch of the winning team's touchdowns.
Miles, you're half right. The actual original claims mostly addressed things like agencies who lacked authority to change voting rules who changed voting rules anyway.
Guiliana came in pounding the desk with fraud claims.
Everything went to hell and the original and legit claims never got addressed.
miles...did happen, playoff game and now they look closer. That is xactly why you go to the judge, not always with the evidence you/others might need down the road.
Rules were broken, Penn. and elsewhere. Rules/controls will be tighter, so watch yourself...yep
I'm appreciative of this writing making clear his politics in framing the report the way he did. I now know I can dismiss it entirely with respect to any importance on this topic.
If our diplomats and spies are suffering this from social contagion, we're in even worse shape than we thought.
While it's possible, how likely is it? The cases occurred, not in a relatively compressed time, but sporadically over several years in widely separated locations. That they are concentrated in a particular profession/workplace is somewhat suspicious, but then both the profession and the workplaces are also plausible targets of a hostile intelligence service. One problem with the social contagion theory is that there's no way to prove it. Normally, if we can exclude any known alternative explanation, then an unprovable but still plausible hypothesis is the best explanation, for the time being, anyway.
While there is no technology known that could produce these symptoms in a deliberate, directed way, neither was radiation poisoning understood for a few decades after radioactive elements were isolated. At least in theory, Madame Curie could have eliminated a rival by slipping a teaspoonful of radium into her tea and no toxicologist at the time would have known what to look for. In the 1980s a few American military pilots reported blinding effects when near Russian fighters. It was speculated that lasers may have been used, though I don't know what became of that idea.
Havana Syndrome reminds me of the of the videos of objects moving in bizarre ways that Navy pilots have taken. Nobody thinks they're simply a hoax, and while there have been suggestions they are light artifacts of some kind, nothing definitive has been announced. You'd think the Navy would be on top of something like that.
More data would be helpful, no? How hard would it be to design and make high-energy RF detectors and distribute them widely among diplomatic and intelligence staff? The goal would be to detect blasts of RF energy across a range of frequencies. Delicate sensitivity would not be required. In the event that high power RF was detected at a location, more precise instruments could be deployed. Then make a similar effort to make and distribute detectors for high-energy ultrasound.
That reported symptoms included those expected from exposure to high-energy RF and those expected from exposure to high-energy ultrasound does not discredit the reports. A capable attacker might well deploy both.
Even if a wide deployment of detectors yielded uniformly negative results (i.e. zero detections), it would bring us a big step closer to sorting out the causes of HAVANA episodes.
First check the party affiliation of all the alleged victims. If they're mostly, or all, Democrats, one can reasonably assume this is nothing more than either a hoax or mass psychosis.
The symptoms of the first sufferer seem consistent to me with an acute vertigo attack (and recurrence, two weeks later). The leap toward assuming he was targeted could have initiated a "contagion" among other agents. For example, much of the population has some form of tinnitus (and for me it does in fact sound like crickets), which is known to become exacerbated by focusing on it, and the only "cure" is literally to train your brain to de-prioritize the sounds. Havana Syndrome seems very similar to me to the cases of teens acquiring Tourette Syndrome from TikTok, and many more children than in the past experiencing body dysmorphia. I would love to see medical researchers look into how the internet can fuel contagions like this. In this case "text chains, WhatsApp messages, and private facebook groups" took the place of TikTok for these agents.
Xactly what happens... When "the great way is lost". The US has this Very Nice building, for what?
Not too much faith remains for our Judges, FBI, CIA, DOJ, Congress, Cabinets and then , oh my,
the gobble-dy-gook Media. Try to wrap up all the crap and place "IT" in the Cuba emblazon Embassy.
Which by the way could be a nice place for our homeless.
Back to business...People "out there" invent all kinds of things, like burning down 50 foot xmas trees FOR whatever. And we also could have "copy cats" just for attention...happens, "when the great way is lost"...yepper.
miles...and and and the voters took over from the corrupt Pa. judges. A so called Blue Bluff State, gone Racehorse Red on the election for their judges. The voters could not stand for the Cheaters...oh plea
I wonder if the cause is an attempt at eavesdropping. Using microwaves or something else to pick up human voices. That might explain why diplomats and spies are targeted.
Just a thought.
Fresh from the press. Lol
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10288759/George-W-Bush-Havana-Syndrome-G-8-summit.html
Psychogenic is the most likely. This presentation is quite similar to other episodes of mass psychogenic hysteria. As others have pointed out, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. And the passion of the detractors and believers reminds me of the era of repressed memory, and multiple personality disorder, where so called experts were oh so certain, only to be summarily dismissed, losing careers and reputation. And the lives and families destroyed were far too many before we came to our senses. These cycles repeat themselves regularly. Add to it the claimed entitlement of compensation and justification for one's symptoms, can lead one to easily see the forces in play the propagate the expansion of cases, and the resistence to consider psychogenic causes.
On another note, Substack of all places put on Eric Tolpo - a known Big Pharma propagandist - as a “writer in residence.” I love that Substack is a platform for anyone, but having now been bought out by big pharma, it’s questionable if this platform is even real anymore. I can hardly watch TV anymore because it’s inundation with big pharma commercials - being funded by my tax dollars (and yours!!!). And now Substack is PAYING a big pharma propagandist to be on this platform. So disappointed. 😩. If they want to write on the platform like everyone else fine. Paying a propagandist to write on here makes me wonder if this whole thing isn’t just another manipulative mirage…..
This concluding observation rang a bell, “we remain convinced that the very bad thing that is happening to us is being imposed from the outside—a mysterious force infiltrating our homes and warping our brains.” That conspiracist mentality underlies most antisemitic thought. It may only be a matter of time before someone claims that the Rothschild Space Laser is behind Havana Syndrome.
When the magicians Penn & Teller had their second Broadway show, Penn ended it with an important statement. When we search for an explanation, rather than admit to the uncertainty of not knowing, we should avoid the certainty of a false explanation. Yet, five years seems a long time.
Common Sense is one of the best things going in journalism today, but what's with the gratuitous attack on Trump? Savodnik concludes his piece by editorializing "... five years after America veered off its prescribed historical-political course, we remain convinced ..." That's an opinion that has nothing to do with the subject of the piece.
It's obvious how Bari Weiss feels about Trump (she referred to him as "grotesque" in a Megyn Kelly podcast a few months back), but if she's pursuing journalism in the old school sense (i.e. objectively), then this kind of aside is unhelpful and might alienate an otherwise supportive segment of the readership.
There's a good reason for that - reminding the "otherwise supportive segment of the readership" that she has not drunk the MAGA Koolaid and has no intentions to.
It's a preventative measure to nip any expectations of audience capture in the bud.
https://theportal.wiki/wiki/Audience_Capture
Oh, give me a break! It's all a part of the big game the US has been playing ever since the CIA was created in 1947. "Diplomats" have close ties to the "intelligence community" and the anti-intelligence agencies in other countries know it, just like the FBI knows that foreign diplomats work for their country's intelligence agencies. It's all part of the game - you fuck with us, we'll fuck with you. The United States assumes this persona that we're so great we're above it all but we're really down there in the mud with all the rest. There's a reason the US classifies information - to keep the American people from knowing what they do in our name.
Mr. Savodnik discredits himself and his essay by asserting that those claiming injury are all "of us" and that "our" brains are being "warped." The affected group is, what, 200? All reported a particular collection of symptoms contracted after they were in virtually identical circumstances. Bari Weiss owes her readers more respect than to publish such tripe.
"such tripe" as Savodnik's assertions. GD
Perhaps they need instead, the consultation of a competent gerontologist.
Yes, getting old is a bitch, but its far better than the alternative.
"There was also the question of timing. Havana Syndrome arrived on the American scene at the end of a tumultuous presidential campaign that had left tens of millions of Americans feeling unsure of what came next: Was the country about to be taken over by fascists?"
Um, no. It *wasn't* the "tumultuous presidential campaign".
It was the pathological, deliberate, willful lies and dishonesty and malfeasance of the alphabet legacy media's REPORTING (sic) on the presidential campaign that was greatly responsible FOR the tumultuousness of the presidential campaign and that was greatly responsible FOR the uncertainty felt by many Americans.
Let's be sure we call a spade a spade, please.
The alphabet legacy media are the cancer among us. Trump WAS right. They are enemies of the American people, of both sides of the aisle, of all sides of the aisle.
Trump sure made it easy for the alphabet media, by openly announcing his intention to fabricate claims of fraud in the event that he lost. Which, sure enough, is exactly what he did, up to the point of inciting a mob as extra leverage over Mike Pence.
check your dates...miles off
Yup, other guy mentioned that BW was talking about the 2016 election, not 2020. In that case, yeah talking about imminent fascism is kinda ridiculous.
How many of the J6ers have been charged with the crime of "insurrection"? How many J6ers were apprehended with firearms and/or charged with firearms crimes or violations?
So it was an insurrection in which none of the participants has yet been charged with "insurrection", and an insurrection in which none of the participants brought a firearm to the party.
NOTHING that you think happened, happened. Anywhere.
Andy...but but but, so funny...yep
Yes, because until that point in America's history, the media were perfectly fair, unbiased, and honest.
Nothing else you wrote happened, either.
Trump's legal team went 0-60 in court with their bullshit fraud cases. That shit happened, and the court transcripts are actually pretty hilarious to read. The judges were seriously unimpressed that Trump's lawyers were wasting their time with such obvious bullshit.
Between that and the Capitol riot (which was largely a pressure tactic on Pence), it's a fair comment for BW to refer to "a tumultuous presidential campaign that had left tens of millions of Americans feeling unsure of what came next: Was the country about to be taken over by fascists?"
The problem wasn't the cases as originally filed which looked to anomolies and improper methods of changing voting requirements (agencies changing rules w/out authority to do so, etc) which violated due process and equal protection; legit theories. Whether they would have succeeded or not who can tell, if they succeeded would it have produced a different outcome? Who knows.
BUT the Rudy Guiliani got involved and started banging the desk with claims of fraud. The original attorneys were made to look like fools by this jackass and the legit questions were never addressed.
It almost certainly wouldn't have changed the outcome for 2 reasons:
1) The cases were not filed until well after the election, which raises the concern of "rolling the dice" on the outcome (ignore the issues if we win, but file cases if we lose). That's a huge legal no-no.
2) The intervention the cases called for (throwing out votes) is a cure that's worse than the disease. Voters followed the rules they were given; if they'd been given different rules, then who knows how those voters might have cast their ballots differently?
The only way the initial cases MIGHT have had a shot was if they asked for a "do-over", but that wasn't what they filed for. As soon as the original lawyers asked the judges to start throwing out votes, their cases were toast.
miles, you need a calendar and a reading comprehension specialist.
You wrote "Between that [Trump's alleged court losses) and the Capitol riot (which was largely a pressure tactic on Pence), it's a fair comment for BW to refer to "a tumultuous presidential campaign that had left tens of millions of Americans feeling unsure of what came next: Was the country about to be taken over by fascists?""
Um, I hate to break the news to you, but the "tumultuous presidential campaign" referenced in the article is the 2016 one, not the 2020 one! The alleged fascist takeover fear was...Trump's legitimate election in 2016.
THAT is why *I* wrote,
"It was the pathological, deliberate, willful lies and dishonesty and malfeasance of the alphabet legacy media's REPORTING (sic) on the presidential campaign that was greatly responsible FOR the tumultuousness of the presidential campaign and that was greatly responsible FOR the uncertainty felt by many Americans...the alphabet legacy media are the cancer among us. Trump WAS right. They are enemies of the American people, of both sides of the aisle, of all sides of the aisle."
again Andy...too funny, now stop that
As I recall it didn't break the news until well after 2016. If Bari was talking about the 2016 campaign, then yeah, I'd agree that what she wrote was pretty over the top.
I'm going to agree with 'Andrew the Great', you're reading comprehension needs work miles. You are continually referencing Bari Weiss as the author of this article when in fact it was written by Peter Savodnik - do better guy
"The onset of what is now called Havana Syndrome came at an inopportune moment for the outgoing Obama administration."
"Havana Syndrome arrived on the American scene at the end of a tumultuous presidential campaign..." ~ Havana Syndrome arrived in late 2016.
Heck, the very start of the article is, "The first person to report strange symptoms was a CIA officer posing as a diplomat at the U.S. embassy in Cuba.
It was December 2016."
miles...were you ever in the Emblazon Cuba Embassy?
Sorry, can’t let total falsehoods go by. Trump didn’t go 0 for 60 because there never were court cases, the judges refused to hear them based on standing. Chickens all.
Quite frankly any voter should have standing because a fraudulent vote cancels the legal voter. But that’s a different topic.
Just suffice it to say, great try at gaslighting, but no dice.
The reason the judges threw out the cases on standing was because Trump's lawyers were arguing for retroactive changes to vote eligibility rules. They might have run their mouths on Fox News and Twitter about having smoking-gun fraud cases, but in court (where they could get disbarred if they perjured themselves), they played it much safer, and only put forward rule-dispute arguments like "Well if this mail-in voting rule had hypothetically been different, then these 400,000 votes would have hypothetically been ineligible".
That's a bit like playing the Superbowl, losing, and then after the game is over, trying to get the ref to backdate an alternate rulebook, and overturn a bunch of the winning team's touchdowns.
The judges, obviously, said fuck no to that.
Miles, you're half right. The actual original claims mostly addressed things like agencies who lacked authority to change voting rules who changed voting rules anyway.
Guiliana came in pounding the desk with fraud claims.
Everything went to hell and the original and legit claims never got addressed.
miles...did happen, playoff game and now they look closer. That is xactly why you go to the judge, not always with the evidence you/others might need down the road.
Rules were broken, Penn. and elsewhere. Rules/controls will be tighter, so watch yourself...yep