Another excellent story from TFP! You're on a roll!
Downloading one's consciousness into a receptacle of some kind —a robot, another human being, a sophisticated server—has been a staple of science fiction plotting since the Golden Age of Asimov and Heinlein.
What I could never get beyond is this: The _receptacle_ might feel some sort of c…
Another excellent story from TFP! You're on a roll!
Downloading one's consciousness into a receptacle of some kind —a robot, another human being, a sophisticated server—has been a staple of science fiction plotting since the Golden Age of Asimov and Heinlein.
What I could never get beyond is this: The _receptacle_ might feel some sort of continuity with the consciousness that once was yours, but _you_ will not feel any continuity with that receptacle. Your consciousness will _still_ cease to exist the moment you die. Your sense of "you" is much more than the contents of your brain! So from the perspective of immortality, this has never seemed like a workable solution. 😀
Also, in my experience, there are developmental stages in adulthood just as there are developmental stages in childhood, and these stages all seem to be about preparing one for what comes next.
My last birthday was a Significant Number. And I can actually _feel_ myself beginning to separate out from the world around me, not in a dementia way, and not in any kind of negative way. (It's so difficult to describe!). But it seems to me that I _am_ beginning to prepare for death. It's kind of exciting, in a way!
Exactly this! As I said in another comment, I see some value here if, for example, it allows history students in the future to ask questions about what life was like for people in the 20th/21st century and get a reasonable response. Or for people that want to preserve some kind of family legacy or memories. But as a way to live forever--nope!
Thank you for that! For the past few years I have felt the same, separating from the world around me, feeling the irrelevance of being "old" while the world spins on with the concerns of living, breathing, reproducing, and moving from one stage to another.
As a newly retired man of 72 I am coming to terms with the final curtain, death. I have long been aware of how I am perceived by the younger as they have asked me "How old ARE you?" when I was still working. The subtext to that question was "How are you still alive and working?" To them it is inconceivable that they, themselves, will ever reach my stage of life. Their lives have no discernable horizon while I am circling around the event horizon, waiting for that last descent into oblivion.
Despite this, there have been benefits to growing older, ones that include sharing knowledge and experience with those further back on the path, and sometimes I am gratified that my contributions were appreciated. But if I were granted the gift/curse of eternal physical life I fear that my willingness to share would be curtailed, and that I would take on a world weariness that would be hard to counter.
My faith teaches me that I will be restored to life by my creator, with a newly transformed body that will be made for worship and service, service that my original, slowly failing body and psyche could not support. I long for that transformation with eyes that really see, and knowledge that is not ephemeral. Maybe you think or believe that religion is a coping mechanism for death, but it is still a comfort to those among us who have experienced most of what living has to offer. I am not in the camp of those younger than me who are searching for the quest of immortality. It is nothing more that whistling past the graveyard.
At age 62, I feel the exact same way that you just described, as if I'm now whole-heartedly facing my upcoming death and preparing myself, emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually for it (it does, indeed, feel like the "energy" within me is loosening itself from physical reality in preparation for what I like to think of as "the jump" from this reality to the next). I agree with Elon. I can't think of a greater punishment than having to live forever on Planet Earth (though I love the beauty of Earth immensely and give thanks to our lovely woods and all the other life forms with whom I share this beautiful space). When it's my time to go, though, I look forward to whatever adventure awaits; and if there's nothing after death, as so many folks say these days, I won't be aware of my instantaneous blip into nothingness (which is exactly what happens when I fall asleep every night--no big deal, nothing to worry about).
I feel this way too! Less attached to the world. But attachment to my family and dog seems to have increased so much I get really sad imagining one day we will no longer be together. I don’t want to live forever, but want to be with my husband, daughter and dog forever. With “me time” breaks still included. I like to miss them and experience feeling happy when I’m around them again.
When I was about 30, I read something by someone I respected (Might’ve been Wm F Buckley) who said “As you get older you are less attached to this life”. I was shocked and did not understand. I’m 64 now, and get it. To your point.
It’s preparation. When my 72 year old mom was diagnosed with lung cancer she said she just wanted whatever good time she had left. My 39 year old self projected my attachment to life onto her and convinced her to do surgery. She never came home. I feel I robbed her of 18-24 months of life.
Tom… your mom was still relatively young, and so many of us would have done the same thing as you did. Your love was what motivated her… and we don’t know how hard her decline would have been. We went through something similar years ago, and the ravages of cancer as it takes your life are pretty tough. Your mom may have had a real hard 18 months. You were a good and loving son, and I’m sure she knew that. May you take some consolation in that.🥰
I am sorry for your loss. This kind of situation seems to occur very frequently and is addressed in Atul Gawande's book Being Mortal. Very much recommended and sees to address many of the issues and concerns brought up today.
Love that book! In fact, just a couple hours ago I gave a copy to a friend of one of my kids who just graduated from medical school. I hardly know him, but we recently ended up in a conversation about end-of-life care and I recommended this book. He was grateful to hear about it as he had found the rotation in geriatrics gave him a lot to think about.
It's hard to let go of those we love. My mother was doing well and had a stroke and hip fracture in January. She now spends half her time in our home and half with one of my sisters. I watched her going down the hallway one day and I could almost see her fading. If it wasn't for a previous loss in our family I would probably be trying to get her to attach herself to life, but I lost a 23-yr-old daughter in 2009 (lightning strike) and I have to believe we will be together again someday. Losing the young before their time affects one's perspective on aging. You didn't rob your mother, you were trying to hold onto your time with her. That is a human thing to do.
I’m so sorry for the loss of your dear daughter… and I send you hugs as you take good care of your mom. It’s not easy to see loved ones decline like this, but I know she feels the love of you and your sister and family. It’s a treasure and you are a gift to her.
Tom I propose you let that thought quickly drift away. It seems that you are saying she had cancer that was very far advanced...if this is the case those last months of life could have been an existence of constant pain, medicine, doctors, hospitals. I’ve seen it. Better to remember a life well lived and cherished.
Your comment started me thinking that the greatest thing those of us who are along in years could do for society is to impart our experience and perhaps, "wisdom" to the young, rather than trying to ape them and look ridiculous in the process.
I am 69 and have a few millennial friends. One of them told me something very profound: If they don’t already know you and trust you, trying to pour into their lives is like pouring coffee on a cup lid.
Do you think the young are receptive to wisdom? I think some might be be but they are exceptional. I wish I had been more willing to listen, understand and believe elders around me in my youth instead of rolling my eyes at them. I believe it might have spared me from some self created difficulties throughout my life.
Sure, as long as it's not delivered in a condescending fashion "well, when *I* was your age blah blah blah." I mentor young people at work all the time and my goal isn't to make them agree with me, or do exactly what I want--it's to give them some alternative ways of thinking about things. It's also really invaluable for me in that it reminds me that most young people are decent and that Twitter/Instagram etc. provide a very distorted picture of how things actually are.
I’m guilty. Those words came out of my mouth a number of times. I swore I’d never forget what it was like to be young. But I have. My daughter has a good head on her shoulders in some ways. She doesn’t have to work this summer but she insisted she wants her own money. She got a job at an ice cream parlor. She’s taking 2 summer courses to ensure she graduates on time. I’m proud of her, but I am hard on her too and get frustrated when she doesn’t listen to me or take advice.
I think they are. And even if they aren't as receptive at the time the wisdom is imparted, they will remember things that will become relevant later in their lives. At least this has been my own personal experience. It's like the joke: "My parents get smarter and smarter the older I get." That certainly applied to my life. So many things my folks told me in my teens and twenties that I didn't necessarily want to hear or believe still stuck with me and turned out to be oh so true.
My favorite Mark Twain quote: "“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”
I think a concern I have is it seems like I have more competition than my parents did. A lot of info online. So I suppose it boils down to trust. Also there is no way she can truly understand me until she herself becomes a parent. That opened my eyes and changed me more than anything else.
Another excellent story from TFP! You're on a roll!
Downloading one's consciousness into a receptacle of some kind —a robot, another human being, a sophisticated server—has been a staple of science fiction plotting since the Golden Age of Asimov and Heinlein.
What I could never get beyond is this: The _receptacle_ might feel some sort of continuity with the consciousness that once was yours, but _you_ will not feel any continuity with that receptacle. Your consciousness will _still_ cease to exist the moment you die. Your sense of "you" is much more than the contents of your brain! So from the perspective of immortality, this has never seemed like a workable solution. 😀
Also, in my experience, there are developmental stages in adulthood just as there are developmental stages in childhood, and these stages all seem to be about preparing one for what comes next.
My last birthday was a Significant Number. And I can actually _feel_ myself beginning to separate out from the world around me, not in a dementia way, and not in any kind of negative way. (It's so difficult to describe!). But it seems to me that I _am_ beginning to prepare for death. It's kind of exciting, in a way!
Exactly this! As I said in another comment, I see some value here if, for example, it allows history students in the future to ask questions about what life was like for people in the 20th/21st century and get a reasonable response. Or for people that want to preserve some kind of family legacy or memories. But as a way to live forever--nope!
Thank you for that! For the past few years I have felt the same, separating from the world around me, feeling the irrelevance of being "old" while the world spins on with the concerns of living, breathing, reproducing, and moving from one stage to another.
As a newly retired man of 72 I am coming to terms with the final curtain, death. I have long been aware of how I am perceived by the younger as they have asked me "How old ARE you?" when I was still working. The subtext to that question was "How are you still alive and working?" To them it is inconceivable that they, themselves, will ever reach my stage of life. Their lives have no discernable horizon while I am circling around the event horizon, waiting for that last descent into oblivion.
Despite this, there have been benefits to growing older, ones that include sharing knowledge and experience with those further back on the path, and sometimes I am gratified that my contributions were appreciated. But if I were granted the gift/curse of eternal physical life I fear that my willingness to share would be curtailed, and that I would take on a world weariness that would be hard to counter.
My faith teaches me that I will be restored to life by my creator, with a newly transformed body that will be made for worship and service, service that my original, slowly failing body and psyche could not support. I long for that transformation with eyes that really see, and knowledge that is not ephemeral. Maybe you think or believe that religion is a coping mechanism for death, but it is still a comfort to those among us who have experienced most of what living has to offer. I am not in the camp of those younger than me who are searching for the quest of immortality. It is nothing more that whistling past the graveyard.
At age 62, I feel the exact same way that you just described, as if I'm now whole-heartedly facing my upcoming death and preparing myself, emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually for it (it does, indeed, feel like the "energy" within me is loosening itself from physical reality in preparation for what I like to think of as "the jump" from this reality to the next). I agree with Elon. I can't think of a greater punishment than having to live forever on Planet Earth (though I love the beauty of Earth immensely and give thanks to our lovely woods and all the other life forms with whom I share this beautiful space). When it's my time to go, though, I look forward to whatever adventure awaits; and if there's nothing after death, as so many folks say these days, I won't be aware of my instantaneous blip into nothingness (which is exactly what happens when I fall asleep every night--no big deal, nothing to worry about).
I feel this way too! Less attached to the world. But attachment to my family and dog seems to have increased so much I get really sad imagining one day we will no longer be together. I don’t want to live forever, but want to be with my husband, daughter and dog forever. With “me time” breaks still included. I like to miss them and experience feeling happy when I’m around them again.
When I was about 30, I read something by someone I respected (Might’ve been Wm F Buckley) who said “As you get older you are less attached to this life”. I was shocked and did not understand. I’m 64 now, and get it. To your point.
Yes. You see the vanity, the futility of grasping and ambition.
I know, right?
And this is something I suppose those techies chasing immortality can't understand at all: It's not a negative feeling. It feels very pleasant.
It’s preparation. When my 72 year old mom was diagnosed with lung cancer she said she just wanted whatever good time she had left. My 39 year old self projected my attachment to life onto her and convinced her to do surgery. She never came home. I feel I robbed her of 18-24 months of life.
Tom… your mom was still relatively young, and so many of us would have done the same thing as you did. Your love was what motivated her… and we don’t know how hard her decline would have been. We went through something similar years ago, and the ravages of cancer as it takes your life are pretty tough. Your mom may have had a real hard 18 months. You were a good and loving son, and I’m sure she knew that. May you take some consolation in that.🥰
I am sorry for your loss. This kind of situation seems to occur very frequently and is addressed in Atul Gawande's book Being Mortal. Very much recommended and sees to address many of the issues and concerns brought up today.
Love that book! In fact, just a couple hours ago I gave a copy to a friend of one of my kids who just graduated from medical school. I hardly know him, but we recently ended up in a conversation about end-of-life care and I recommended this book. He was grateful to hear about it as he had found the rotation in geriatrics gave him a lot to think about.
It's hard to let go of those we love. My mother was doing well and had a stroke and hip fracture in January. She now spends half her time in our home and half with one of my sisters. I watched her going down the hallway one day and I could almost see her fading. If it wasn't for a previous loss in our family I would probably be trying to get her to attach herself to life, but I lost a 23-yr-old daughter in 2009 (lightning strike) and I have to believe we will be together again someday. Losing the young before their time affects one's perspective on aging. You didn't rob your mother, you were trying to hold onto your time with her. That is a human thing to do.
Kmick-- So sorry...
I’m so sorry for the loss of your dear daughter… and I send you hugs as you take good care of your mom. It’s not easy to see loved ones decline like this, but I know she feels the love of you and your sister and family. It’s a treasure and you are a gift to her.
Thank you for that. I hadn't considered that. And my deepest condolences on losing your daughter. Every parent's nightmare......
Tom I propose you let that thought quickly drift away. It seems that you are saying she had cancer that was very far advanced...if this is the case those last months of life could have been an existence of constant pain, medicine, doctors, hospitals. I’ve seen it. Better to remember a life well lived and cherished.
Tom, I understand that feeling.
I am sorry for your loss.
Your comment started me thinking that the greatest thing those of us who are along in years could do for society is to impart our experience and perhaps, "wisdom" to the young, rather than trying to ape them and look ridiculous in the process.
I am 69 and have a few millennial friends. One of them told me something very profound: If they don’t already know you and trust you, trying to pour into their lives is like pouring coffee on a cup lid.
Do you think the young are receptive to wisdom? I think some might be be but they are exceptional. I wish I had been more willing to listen, understand and believe elders around me in my youth instead of rolling my eyes at them. I believe it might have spared me from some self created difficulties throughout my life.
Sure, as long as it's not delivered in a condescending fashion "well, when *I* was your age blah blah blah." I mentor young people at work all the time and my goal isn't to make them agree with me, or do exactly what I want--it's to give them some alternative ways of thinking about things. It's also really invaluable for me in that it reminds me that most young people are decent and that Twitter/Instagram etc. provide a very distorted picture of how things actually are.
I’m guilty. Those words came out of my mouth a number of times. I swore I’d never forget what it was like to be young. But I have. My daughter has a good head on her shoulders in some ways. She doesn’t have to work this summer but she insisted she wants her own money. She got a job at an ice cream parlor. She’s taking 2 summer courses to ensure she graduates on time. I’m proud of her, but I am hard on her too and get frustrated when she doesn’t listen to me or take advice.
I think they are. And even if they aren't as receptive at the time the wisdom is imparted, they will remember things that will become relevant later in their lives. At least this has been my own personal experience. It's like the joke: "My parents get smarter and smarter the older I get." That certainly applied to my life. So many things my folks told me in my teens and twenties that I didn't necessarily want to hear or believe still stuck with me and turned out to be oh so true.
My favorite Mark Twain quote: "“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”
I think a concern I have is it seems like I have more competition than my parents did. A lot of info online. So I suppose it boils down to trust. Also there is no way she can truly understand me until she herself becomes a parent. That opened my eyes and changed me more than anything else.
Yes, if we don't force it on them. And, in due course and reflection, it might be found useful.
I keep telling myself to be more patient with our 20 year old. I’m planting seeds, and hopefully they take root 🙏🏼 even if I’m not around to see it.
Excellent wisdom in your comment. Please pass that wisdom to as many as possible.
Yes, yes, YES!!!!! ❤️
Looking at you, Madonna 👀