It started under Obama (remember the beer summit) but accelerated with the election of Tump. From day 1 the msm, politicians , civic and religious leaders used the term “resistance” as opposed to opposition. In the name of “resistance” , many lost their moral compass and accepted that the ends justifying the means. That a lie was ac…
It started under Obama (remember the beer summit) but accelerated with the election of Tump. From day 1 the msm, politicians , civic and religious leaders used the term “resistance” as opposed to opposition. In the name of “resistance” , many lost their moral compass and accepted that the ends justifying the means. That a lie was acceptable and those pushing it (Dossier, Collusion , misrepresenting the “Good people on both sides comment”Etc) were not only acceptable, to question the accusations meant you were a bad person in need of help. Bari , using your terminology , you know the world has gone mad when a person like Avanati is taken seriously by news organizations. There were and continues to be zero consequences foe those who pushed false narratives - as long as though those narrative helped get Trump out of office. That is why we are here
What about the false narratives that helped Trump get into office? What about whose version of truth? Economics (capitalism) has been linked from the beginning of our democracy, how does economic impact of both the cowards and the courageous play? Education — opting not to discuss slavery (or making it sound like a very pleasant experience), or simply stating the “truth” that blacks (and other indigenous peoples) were the slaves and mostly white people were the slave owners? How many people would be willing to walk away from a six or seven figure salary over the principle of it? Let alone someone who is barely getting by? I think about this link between democracy, freedom, and economics. Does our democracy permit capitalism, or does capitalism permit a democracy? The ability of a CEO or anyone for that matter to show the courage to stand up has to be made also through the lens of can i still feed my family and provide a roof over my head? After all, isn’t that what the vast, vast majority of Americans truly care about? The ability to work hard, make a living, provide for our families, and hope that our next generation does it better than we did?
steve TM... I do not know your age, which may account. Most false narratives were faulting Trumpty, my opinion ex. Russia lies etc.
The black slaves were sold to whites and every other nationality by Black Slave Owners.
I am not giving credit to anyone, but i also see the fault with ALL sides. Actually...the same exist today in Africa and Afgan, we just handed Afgan back into a Slave State, just ask those from there, as in Malala (now living in Eng.). They do not understand (women and men) why they can not have schools for women, etc.
I WAS educated with the knowledge that slavery was was the very worst nature of man (blach/white). good post, Steve...thanks
Steve. My comment is neither pro or anti trump. The question is how did we get here? My point is that we went from a society works a moral philosophy of the ends never justify the means and one of individual liberty (traditional liberalism) to the means do not matter as long as the ends are justified (illiberalism). Trump’s election was the pivot where the moral compass of liberalism was violated by those who claim to have been protecting democracy - it was called the resistance , not the loyal opposition. And the media, academia along with civic leaders sent with it hook , line and sink. We lost our moral compass and on reality many never accepted the legitimate election of Trump - like it or not ,we set a horrible example and let the genie of illiberalism to go mainstream - can’t go back
America is like a healthy body and it's resistance is 3 fold; Patriotism, Morality and Spiritual Life...Undermine these, America will collapse from within. Joey ? S
"My point is that we went from a society works a moral philosophy of the ends never justify the means and one of individual liberty (traditional liberalism) to the means do not matter as long as the ends are justified (illiberalism)."
Love this definition. Spot on from my point of view.
The good news is you can fix your errors even after you post your comment. To do this, just copy your comment and post it the same way you posted your first comment. Then delete your original comment. The deleted comment will be marked "deleted." But after a few minutes the deleted comment will completely disappear. It's best to do this as soon as possible so you don't don't delete anyone's likes or replies.
MikeHF. I was watching it - saw it live. Was a stupid comment which he quickly clarified. He was referring to both sides of the statue issue. Not saying I agree or disagree with the removal , but the media and Dems ran wirh the false/misleading narrative.
Pattern - Collusion, Russian Dossier, Kavanaugh , Hunter Biden story , Covington Kids and there are many many more
Two hours after Heather Heyer was killed, and nearly a full day after the white supremecist tiki torch rally, Trump spoke to the media and said nothing of white nationalism. His most forceful statement was “We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides, on many sides.” He didn’t name the hatred at all, but he did emphasise the ‘many sides’, and the rest of his statement was comprised of empty platitudes. Read it here: https://www.politifact.com/article/2017/aug/14/context-president-donald-trumps-saturday-statement/
His next statement, in which he called out white supremacy, happened a full two days later. It was delivered, reluctantly, against the backdrop of widespread criticism for his mealy mouthed initial statement. The primary criticism that was lobbed against him following his follow up statement was that his words came too late to be meaningful. This is the statement someone else linked to above, and it came a full three days after the first chants of “blood and soil” and “Jews will not replace us”, which ultimately culminated in a car being driven at full speed by a nazi sympathiser into a packed crowd of counter protestors killing one person and injuring 35 others. If you watch the footage it is a miracle that only one person was killed. In any other context it would have been immediately condemned as a likely incidence of domestic terrorism.
So is it technically correct that Trump eventually called out white supremacy? Sure. But he was very much dragged into making that statement.
Then, the following day, he made a third statement statement in which he doubled down on the moral equivalency he drew with his “many sides” statement, this time going to pains to emphasise that there were “very fine people on both sides” and to express his sympathy with concerns of those who were upset at the removal of the General E Lee statue. At no point did he express sympathy for the concerns of the protestors who turned up to protest the abject racism fuelling the Unite the Right rally in the first place.
So spare me suggestions that I need to do my own research, or that I’ve been duped by the mainstream media accounts. The cherry picking is very much happening on the part of those who would call out a couple of pull quotes from one statement, without addressing the statements that came before or after or addressing the broader context at all.
There’s a reason why white nationalist groups continue to see Trump as their guy, and it’s not because of his forcefulness when it comes to denouncing their worldview.
Are you aware of all the violence leading up to Charlottesville - both Antifa and proud boys. I saw the press conference. I saw the both sides quote. I cringed.
I will add as a Jew, I am much more concerned about the the anti Zionism /antisemitism within the woke universe than white supremacist - and make no mistake , the neo Nazis disgust me and the Jews will not replace us chant disgusts me. The chants of “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free “ is equally disgusting. Essentially calling for the elimination of Israel. The big difference , the former is rightly condemned by 98 percent of civil society, the later is excused as just rhetoric.
They placed it out of context without the information around the quote. Doing this quote mine, the news (CNN, NPR, ABC, NYT, WaPo...) framed it as support for white nationalism and new-Nazis. This is a lie, much like saying Joe Rogan taking horse dewormer paste for COVID, that many people still believe.
Yeah, you’re hardly convincing me that you are across the context of that quote.
I’ve provided an overview of the various statements below in another response, but I’d really suggest you do your own research on this topic. Trump’s initial statement said nothing about white nationalism at all, instead he talked about the hatred and bigotry ‘on many sides’.
It was in the face of widespread criticism for that initial statement that he was dragged into making a statement that called out white supremacy a full two days later, and he was criticised at that time (completely justifiably) for taking too long to make that statement.
Then when he was pushed on that the next day, he lashed out at the media and doubled down on his initial false equivalency between those who organised a rally in which participants chanted “blood and soil” and “Jews will not replace us” (and in which, you might recall, a nazi sympathiser drove his car at full speed into a crowd of counter protestors) and those who protested their racism.
You talk about Trump’s statements being taken out of context, but yet here we are four years later and somehow he is still the white nationalists’ politician of choice. You’d have thought he’d have been able to set the record straight by now.
You referenced his initial press conference, which is what I linked to. It took place on August 12, two hours after a Dodge Charger was driven into a crowd killing Heather Heyer and injuring 35 others. It was nearly a full day after the tiki torch March in which people chanted “blood and soil” and “Jews will not replace us”. Trump was criticised heavily following that press conference for failing to call out white supremacy, and rightfully so.
That criticism endured for 48 hours, because he didn’t address the issue again in that time.
The press conference you are referring to took place two full days later on August 14. He called out white supremacy in that conference, but was criticised for having taken so long to do so.
Then the following day in a third press conference Trump became belligerent with the press and doubled down on his initial statement. He said that there were very fine people on both sides, and expressed his sympathy for the cause of those who were worried that removing statues represented an an attack on US history and culture. He did not express any such sympathy for the cause of those who turned out to protest against the virulent racism that had been on display.
Do yourself a favor and review the timeline to see what was said and when. You are taking one statement that Trump was dragged into making way beyond the point at which it would have been meaningful, and pretending it was the essence of his response. But for more than two days he provided no denunciation of the bigotry and hatred that was on plain display.
And if you’re really not convinced, ask yourself why white nationalist groups still view Trump as their guy. I have no idea if Trump is personally racist or not, but he has consistently refused to shun support from racist groups. That was on plain display when Trump equivocated in the debate against Joe Biden and told Proud Boys to stand back and stand by, and again on January 6 when you saw many in that crowd from similar groups all protesting in his name.
“And you had people — and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists — because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. Okay?”
In truth , there were few good people in the group that day. Prior protests maybe but the Charlottesville protest was taken over by the extreme far right - as opposed to prior protests which had more mainstream opposition
I believe there was sign I can’t fraud and illegal manipulation of voting processes. I don’t know if it was determinative but should be fully, honestly investigated
I'll temporarily take all this under advisement, M. Smith. Rather, the only thing I might disagree with was the woke started in '85. COULD be the seed germinated. But the Fundamentalist Wokeianity religion sprouted the most with exhilaration of Obama and metastisized in '16, right?
Just read a history by VERY conservative guy, Caldwell. He laid a LOTTA blame at the feet of Reagan. Said he cut taxes, but then found that in order to keep society peaceful, he couldn't cut the welfare programs. Couldn't or didn't. The way he phrased it was (approx), "The whole thing can be summed up in six words: The National Debt TRIPLED under Reagan." (emphasis added)
Tripers... from what to what? jts. Was not much (dept) until Bush'
from $2 to $6? And with an increase in the economy, biggest ever, didn't take long to cover...Bush went to $5 Trillion and the BO went to $20 Trillion...yep.
Well, the thing was the collapse of the idea that someone who wanted to cut back on big government wasn't ABLE to do it. But, yah, no doubt You're right, M. Mack.
Funny thing about me. WHen I make a mistake that I'm AWARE of, then I'm FIRST to ADMIT it. Dunno why I ended up that Way, but DO know that it relieves a LOAD of stress on the (feeble ;) mind.
Ha! Not that I'd ever be in that tax bracket, but NO.. "HECK" NO, I wouldn't wanna be in any tax bracket CLOSE to that.
As far as Reagan, I didn't get specifics. I think he was gonna ATTEMPT to cut back on "Big Governent" while cutting taxes. Just couldn't be done, is all.
Also, new one at Bari's on the slime-suckers who are fomenting all the shite coming down. You may really ENJOY that one, M. Smith.
Yah, NAILED it, M. Smith. I've thought a MILLION times that they throw around TRILLIONS like I throw a $10 tip on a table. Seriously? They just can NOT CONCEPTUALIZE the amounts of money they throw away needlessly.
I had a lot more respect for Sen. Manchin till I "heard" he was talking about going from a $1.5T plan to $2T. He SHOULD be forcing them the OPPOSITE direction. They get a big number in their heads, and THEN scramble to find ways to spend it. That's 180 degrees BACKWARDS, idn't it?
It started under Obama (remember the beer summit) but accelerated with the election of Tump. From day 1 the msm, politicians , civic and religious leaders used the term “resistance” as opposed to opposition. In the name of “resistance” , many lost their moral compass and accepted that the ends justifying the means. That a lie was acceptable and those pushing it (Dossier, Collusion , misrepresenting the “Good people on both sides comment”Etc) were not only acceptable, to question the accusations meant you were a bad person in need of help. Bari , using your terminology , you know the world has gone mad when a person like Avanati is taken seriously by news organizations. There were and continues to be zero consequences foe those who pushed false narratives - as long as though those narrative helped get Trump out of office. That is why we are here
Trump WAS the resistance. These people were only ever the Evil Empire.
What about the false narratives that helped Trump get into office? What about whose version of truth? Economics (capitalism) has been linked from the beginning of our democracy, how does economic impact of both the cowards and the courageous play? Education — opting not to discuss slavery (or making it sound like a very pleasant experience), or simply stating the “truth” that blacks (and other indigenous peoples) were the slaves and mostly white people were the slave owners? How many people would be willing to walk away from a six or seven figure salary over the principle of it? Let alone someone who is barely getting by? I think about this link between democracy, freedom, and economics. Does our democracy permit capitalism, or does capitalism permit a democracy? The ability of a CEO or anyone for that matter to show the courage to stand up has to be made also through the lens of can i still feed my family and provide a roof over my head? After all, isn’t that what the vast, vast majority of Americans truly care about? The ability to work hard, make a living, provide for our families, and hope that our next generation does it better than we did?
steve TM... I do not know your age, which may account. Most false narratives were faulting Trumpty, my opinion ex. Russia lies etc.
The black slaves were sold to whites and every other nationality by Black Slave Owners.
I am not giving credit to anyone, but i also see the fault with ALL sides. Actually...the same exist today in Africa and Afgan, we just handed Afgan back into a Slave State, just ask those from there, as in Malala (now living in Eng.). They do not understand (women and men) why they can not have schools for women, etc.
I WAS educated with the knowledge that slavery was was the very worst nature of man (blach/white). good post, Steve...thanks
Steve. My comment is neither pro or anti trump. The question is how did we get here? My point is that we went from a society works a moral philosophy of the ends never justify the means and one of individual liberty (traditional liberalism) to the means do not matter as long as the ends are justified (illiberalism). Trump’s election was the pivot where the moral compass of liberalism was violated by those who claim to have been protecting democracy - it was called the resistance , not the loyal opposition. And the media, academia along with civic leaders sent with it hook , line and sink. We lost our moral compass and on reality many never accepted the legitimate election of Trump - like it or not ,we set a horrible example and let the genie of illiberalism to go mainstream - can’t go back
Alan G:
can't go back?...not sure.
America is like a healthy body and it's resistance is 3 fold; Patriotism, Morality and Spiritual Life...Undermine these, America will collapse from within. Joey ? S
U know who...
I don't believe we lost anything. I think we revealed everything. Now we are drowning in it.
"My point is that we went from a society works a moral philosophy of the ends never justify the means and one of individual liberty (traditional liberalism) to the means do not matter as long as the ends are justified (illiberalism)."
Love this definition. Spot on from my point of view.
With a moral philosophy - cell phone and no ability to correct spelling errors 😂
Pardon the typo
The good news is you can fix your errors even after you post your comment. To do this, just copy your comment and post it the same way you posted your first comment. Then delete your original comment. The deleted comment will be marked "deleted." But after a few minutes the deleted comment will completely disappear. It's best to do this as soon as possible so you don't don't delete anyone's likes or replies.
wow... you must have needed quite a few to figure all that...having fun, thanks
Necessity is the mother of invention.
I’m sorry, misrepresentation of the ‘good people on both sides’ comment?
MikeHF. I was watching it - saw it live. Was a stupid comment which he quickly clarified. He was referring to both sides of the statue issue. Not saying I agree or disagree with the removal , but the media and Dems ran wirh the false/misleading narrative.
Pattern - Collusion, Russian Dossier, Kavanaugh , Hunter Biden story , Covington Kids and there are many many more
What did you watch live exactly?
Two hours after Heather Heyer was killed, and nearly a full day after the white supremecist tiki torch rally, Trump spoke to the media and said nothing of white nationalism. His most forceful statement was “We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides, on many sides.” He didn’t name the hatred at all, but he did emphasise the ‘many sides’, and the rest of his statement was comprised of empty platitudes. Read it here: https://www.politifact.com/article/2017/aug/14/context-president-donald-trumps-saturday-statement/
His next statement, in which he called out white supremacy, happened a full two days later. It was delivered, reluctantly, against the backdrop of widespread criticism for his mealy mouthed initial statement. The primary criticism that was lobbed against him following his follow up statement was that his words came too late to be meaningful. This is the statement someone else linked to above, and it came a full three days after the first chants of “blood and soil” and “Jews will not replace us”, which ultimately culminated in a car being driven at full speed by a nazi sympathiser into a packed crowd of counter protestors killing one person and injuring 35 others. If you watch the footage it is a miracle that only one person was killed. In any other context it would have been immediately condemned as a likely incidence of domestic terrorism.
So is it technically correct that Trump eventually called out white supremacy? Sure. But he was very much dragged into making that statement.
Then, the following day, he made a third statement statement in which he doubled down on the moral equivalency he drew with his “many sides” statement, this time going to pains to emphasise that there were “very fine people on both sides” and to express his sympathy with concerns of those who were upset at the removal of the General E Lee statue. At no point did he express sympathy for the concerns of the protestors who turned up to protest the abject racism fuelling the Unite the Right rally in the first place.
So spare me suggestions that I need to do my own research, or that I’ve been duped by the mainstream media accounts. The cherry picking is very much happening on the part of those who would call out a couple of pull quotes from one statement, without addressing the statements that came before or after or addressing the broader context at all.
There’s a reason why white nationalist groups continue to see Trump as their guy, and it’s not because of his forcefulness when it comes to denouncing their worldview.
Are you aware of all the violence leading up to Charlottesville - both Antifa and proud boys. I saw the press conference. I saw the both sides quote. I cringed.
I will add as a Jew, I am much more concerned about the the anti Zionism /antisemitism within the woke universe than white supremacist - and make no mistake , the neo Nazis disgust me and the Jews will not replace us chant disgusts me. The chants of “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free “ is equally disgusting. Essentially calling for the elimination of Israel. The big difference , the former is rightly condemned by 98 percent of civil society, the later is excused as just rhetoric.
And the acceptance of the anti Zionism /semitism is the canary in the coal mine.
They placed it out of context without the information around the quote. Doing this quote mine, the news (CNN, NPR, ABC, NYT, WaPo...) framed it as support for white nationalism and new-Nazis. This is a lie, much like saying Joe Rogan taking horse dewormer paste for COVID, that many people still believe.
Sorry to destroy your world view.
Yeah, you’re hardly convincing me that you are across the context of that quote.
I’ve provided an overview of the various statements below in another response, but I’d really suggest you do your own research on this topic. Trump’s initial statement said nothing about white nationalism at all, instead he talked about the hatred and bigotry ‘on many sides’.
It was in the face of widespread criticism for that initial statement that he was dragged into making a statement that called out white supremacy a full two days later, and he was criticised at that time (completely justifiably) for taking too long to make that statement.
Then when he was pushed on that the next day, he lashed out at the media and doubled down on his initial false equivalency between those who organised a rally in which participants chanted “blood and soil” and “Jews will not replace us” (and in which, you might recall, a nazi sympathiser drove his car at full speed into a crowd of counter protestors) and those who protested their racism.
You talk about Trump’s statements being taken out of context, but yet here we are four years later and somehow he is still the white nationalists’ politician of choice. You’d have thought he’d have been able to set the record straight by now.
The TDS is strong and unrelenting in this one. Any time spent is just wasted. He's a goner.
Forcefully argued
Agreed.
Here’s Trump’s initial press statement: https://www.politifact.com/article/2017/aug/14/context-president-donald-trumps-saturday-statement/
I’ll let you point me to the part where he “clearly condemned the white supremacists om specific terms.”
You referenced his initial press conference, which is what I linked to. It took place on August 12, two hours after a Dodge Charger was driven into a crowd killing Heather Heyer and injuring 35 others. It was nearly a full day after the tiki torch March in which people chanted “blood and soil” and “Jews will not replace us”. Trump was criticised heavily following that press conference for failing to call out white supremacy, and rightfully so.
That criticism endured for 48 hours, because he didn’t address the issue again in that time.
The press conference you are referring to took place two full days later on August 14. He called out white supremacy in that conference, but was criticised for having taken so long to do so.
Then the following day in a third press conference Trump became belligerent with the press and doubled down on his initial statement. He said that there were very fine people on both sides, and expressed his sympathy for the cause of those who were worried that removing statues represented an an attack on US history and culture. He did not express any such sympathy for the cause of those who turned out to protest against the virulent racism that had been on display.
Do yourself a favor and review the timeline to see what was said and when. You are taking one statement that Trump was dragged into making way beyond the point at which it would have been meaningful, and pretending it was the essence of his response. But for more than two days he provided no denunciation of the bigotry and hatred that was on plain display.
And if you’re really not convinced, ask yourself why white nationalist groups still view Trump as their guy. I have no idea if Trump is personally racist or not, but he has consistently refused to shun support from racist groups. That was on plain display when Trump equivocated in the debate against Joe Biden and told Proud Boys to stand back and stand by, and again on January 6 when you saw many in that crowd from similar groups all protesting in his name.
They lied about his comment- even cnn had to admit it - joe Biden still lies about it !
Oh well if you say so
Look it up - I did - that’s how I know they lied - you just believe everything you hear on cnn ? Really ?
I know about CNN. But I'm thinking the presser was two days after the crap in Charlottesville, right?
“And you had people — and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists — because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. Okay?”
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/full-transcript-of-trumps-both-sides-charlottesville-presser
In truth , there were few good people in the group that day. Prior protests maybe but the Charlottesville protest was taken over by the extreme far right - as opposed to prior protests which had more mainstream opposition
No accountability. A real problem
Do you accept the lie that the 2020 election was stolen, as a majority of Republicans (including almost all Congressional Republicans) do?
Speaking of bald-faced liars, Matt: https://www.nationalreview.com/news/parents-sue-ag-garland-for-violating-free-speech-rights-with-fbi-school-board-memo/
No. I do not.
Did Stacey Abrahm win Georgia ?
Do you believe the 2000 and 2016 elections were stolen and replete with fraud like most Democrats and Democratic members of Congress believe?
Speaking of lies, just wait until Jim Crow suppression steals 2022 and you’re throwing bricks at police officers again.
I believe there was sign I can’t fraud and illegal manipulation of voting processes. I don’t know if it was determinative but should be fully, honestly investigated
Relax, Matt.
Smith...then you must admit, your above comment has nodda to do with Bari's.
Poor Matt must have forgotten to wear his ear trumpet.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_qYhL6pBcxTQ/TGN4aNUYzNI/AAAAAAAABfQ/XUfu34fEfoY/s1600/hearing+trumpet.jpg
Nah - still had journalist who would keep him in check
I'll temporarily take all this under advisement, M. Smith. Rather, the only thing I might disagree with was the woke started in '85. COULD be the seed germinated. But the Fundamentalist Wokeianity religion sprouted the most with exhilaration of Obama and metastisized in '16, right?
Just read a history by VERY conservative guy, Caldwell. He laid a LOTTA blame at the feet of Reagan. Said he cut taxes, but then found that in order to keep society peaceful, he couldn't cut the welfare programs. Couldn't or didn't. The way he phrased it was (approx), "The whole thing can be summed up in six words: The National Debt TRIPLED under Reagan." (emphasis added)
Tripers... from what to what? jts. Was not much (dept) until Bush'
from $2 to $6? And with an increase in the economy, biggest ever, didn't take long to cover...Bush went to $5 Trillion and the BO went to $20 Trillion...yep.
Well, the thing was the collapse of the idea that someone who wanted to cut back on big government wasn't ABLE to do it. But, yah, no doubt You're right, M. Mack.
got cha
Funny thing about me. WHen I make a mistake that I'm AWARE of, then I'm FIRST to ADMIT it. Dunno why I ended up that Way, but DO know that it relieves a LOAD of stress on the (feeble ;) mind.
Ha! Not that I'd ever be in that tax bracket, but NO.. "HECK" NO, I wouldn't wanna be in any tax bracket CLOSE to that.
As far as Reagan, I didn't get specifics. I think he was gonna ATTEMPT to cut back on "Big Governent" while cutting taxes. Just couldn't be done, is all.
Also, new one at Bari's on the slime-suckers who are fomenting all the shite coming down. You may really ENJOY that one, M. Smith.
Yah, NAILED it, M. Smith. I've thought a MILLION times that they throw around TRILLIONS like I throw a $10 tip on a table. Seriously? They just can NOT CONCEPTUALIZE the amounts of money they throw away needlessly.
I had a lot more respect for Sen. Manchin till I "heard" he was talking about going from a $1.5T plan to $2T. He SHOULD be forcing them the OPPOSITE direction. They get a big number in their heads, and THEN scramble to find ways to spend it. That's 180 degrees BACKWARDS, idn't it?
good points