Never realized how good I had it going through primary and secondary schools(and later college) in the 60's and 70's. I believe(hope) my parents would have fought back against this lunacy had it poked its nasty head above ground back then. For better or worse, I do not have kids BUT I try and support financially those folks with courag…
Never realized how good I had it going through primary and secondary schools(and later college) in the 60's and 70's. I believe(hope) my parents would have fought back against this lunacy had it poked its nasty head above ground back then. For better or worse, I do not have kids BUT I try and support financially those folks with courage whom are fighting back now. Finally, a college education is vastly overrated. Three of my most successful friends never spent a day in college(and one barely graduated high school). Anecdotal to be sure , BUT college is far less necessary then it ever was.
I have to disagree with you on that. In many profession a degree is necessary to be employed. I work in the engineering field and if you don’t have a degree, you have no chance of being hired. A few years ago I wanted to hire a man in his 50s that had vastly more experience than me in our field of energy efficiency but he didn’t have a degree and since the utilities we did work for valued degrees, we couldn’t hire him. Similarly, when I put out job postings I would get 100+ applications from international students (usually students who did undergrad work in their countries and did their masters degrees in the US) who all had advanced degrees. I think masters degrees are becoming the new bachelors degree for my generation (I am 34). In my experience, a degree really doesn’t make you a good candidate for a job, and I’ve worked with plenty of people who have degrees and have no clue what they are doing but they know how to talk well and probably interview well. But nevertheless,most of the time, you won’t get through an HR screening without a degree in a STEM field. The way to fix this would be to stop valuing degrees so much and value actual experience and job performance, and to place less value on the IVY league institutions and elevate the value of the local state or online college degree. Further, why colleges need to charge people to teach them subjects unrelated to their discipline is beyond me. I’m an engineer and had to take classes in Architecture, storytelling, and race in movies to satisfy my humanities credits which cost me probably about $1200 for each of those classes.
Hi all, I so appreciate this discussion. The topic is foreign to me, as I live outside the magnitude of NE bubble affluence and elite influence. We live in fly-over country, happily, and we are the "wrong" color. Elites would probably consider me a "deplorable," mainly because I enjoy my freedoms. I have raised three boys and one girl, whom I try to not set up for failure. When the deluge of mail came from the Ivys (after the kids scored well on PSATs), my kids were flattered, and compelled to apply. I convinced them not to, for reasons that Bari has illuminated in her articles and posts.
My third son is now going through the admission process, and after reading these insightful comments I would like some input as to how to advise him. He's a math kid and he will graduate from high school, after attending the local public university, with all the credits for a Big 10 University math major (and then some) with a 4.0 GPA. He has received full ride offers from top 100 US universities, and some scholarships from those higher on the "rankings" scale. He also has received all-state honor awards for his tuba performance and wants to play for a good marching band. Do I advise the full-ride schools (good marching bands/great athletics/lower engineering reputations) or the more expensive higher ranked engineering programs? After navigating his two older brothers through this, the choices were clear. Not so much with son #3 ... he is actively seeking guidance, and visits (mostly virtual) and Zoom conversations (MEH!) have been truly unremarkable.
If a lot of college is throw-away, CRT haranging, even in STEM now, I'm inclined to promote the full-ride choice so he can at least play in the band.
Thank you, Chris! This is so helpful, and I had my son read your suggestions ... he thanks you, too. My first two were so DONE with school after undergrad, they went right into industry (accounting and crypto-currency), so the Masters advice is especially notworthy for son#3 to consider. He has decided on Purdue, and there is a MS+1 EE/Computer engineering option. If he likes this, he may just go this route. I still believe that STEM = Freedom, and with his music, in Purdue's big band, I am hopeful he'll have a social life. Again, it's so great to hear from someone like you who is experiencing the field today. Regards.
WHOO-HOO, Big 10! Purdue v. Michigan State, should be a great basketball rivalry next season. You are very generous. So glad to "meet" you and bounce around ideas. I will forward your email, and will make sure we don't become a bother.
I agree. I just believe there are more career options today where a degree is not required than in the past. But, I agree that a degree is still required for many career paths.
I think the issue is not that college education is overrated - but that the quality of education in college has decreased so precipitously over the past two decades (because of all the CRT stuff...) that it's impossible to get the education that you are ostensibly paying for.
Right now, elite colleges are primarily social networking clubs, which provide career opportunities with alumni, and lifelong networking opportunities with dorm/house mates.
For a select few, it's a means to further their interest in a passion - and help discover the next cure for disease or means to orbit the earth without the use of fossil fuels. For most others, especially in the humanities (says a humanities major), it's 4 years of fart-smelling, punctuated by fun weekends and other bonding activities, be it team sports, model UN, a capella, college radio DJ, etc.
I’m a Brit and we sent both our kids to the USA (Columbia NY and Rice Tx) for what we then perceived to be the finest education... I believe both our kids now in their mid 30s might have been infected by the leftist ideology but they now seem to be waking up and smelling the cool aid. For a good basic education in the humanities I’d say Hillsdale College sounds a good bet. They take zero federal funding.... and I’ve heard University of Chicago is a bastion of hope
The higher education industry in this country -- and it is a voracious industry, regardless of 501(c)(3) charitable status -- needs to be disrupted. And one silver lining of COVID is that this needed disruption will be accelerated. (I hope!)
Never realized how good I had it going through primary and secondary schools(and later college) in the 60's and 70's. I believe(hope) my parents would have fought back against this lunacy had it poked its nasty head above ground back then. For better or worse, I do not have kids BUT I try and support financially those folks with courage whom are fighting back now. Finally, a college education is vastly overrated. Three of my most successful friends never spent a day in college(and one barely graduated high school). Anecdotal to be sure , BUT college is far less necessary then it ever was.
I have to disagree with you on that. In many profession a degree is necessary to be employed. I work in the engineering field and if you don’t have a degree, you have no chance of being hired. A few years ago I wanted to hire a man in his 50s that had vastly more experience than me in our field of energy efficiency but he didn’t have a degree and since the utilities we did work for valued degrees, we couldn’t hire him. Similarly, when I put out job postings I would get 100+ applications from international students (usually students who did undergrad work in their countries and did their masters degrees in the US) who all had advanced degrees. I think masters degrees are becoming the new bachelors degree for my generation (I am 34). In my experience, a degree really doesn’t make you a good candidate for a job, and I’ve worked with plenty of people who have degrees and have no clue what they are doing but they know how to talk well and probably interview well. But nevertheless,most of the time, you won’t get through an HR screening without a degree in a STEM field. The way to fix this would be to stop valuing degrees so much and value actual experience and job performance, and to place less value on the IVY league institutions and elevate the value of the local state or online college degree. Further, why colleges need to charge people to teach them subjects unrelated to their discipline is beyond me. I’m an engineer and had to take classes in Architecture, storytelling, and race in movies to satisfy my humanities credits which cost me probably about $1200 for each of those classes.
Meant to ask you this.
Another 1st world problem:
Hi all, I so appreciate this discussion. The topic is foreign to me, as I live outside the magnitude of NE bubble affluence and elite influence. We live in fly-over country, happily, and we are the "wrong" color. Elites would probably consider me a "deplorable," mainly because I enjoy my freedoms. I have raised three boys and one girl, whom I try to not set up for failure. When the deluge of mail came from the Ivys (after the kids scored well on PSATs), my kids were flattered, and compelled to apply. I convinced them not to, for reasons that Bari has illuminated in her articles and posts.
My third son is now going through the admission process, and after reading these insightful comments I would like some input as to how to advise him. He's a math kid and he will graduate from high school, after attending the local public university, with all the credits for a Big 10 University math major (and then some) with a 4.0 GPA. He has received full ride offers from top 100 US universities, and some scholarships from those higher on the "rankings" scale. He also has received all-state honor awards for his tuba performance and wants to play for a good marching band. Do I advise the full-ride schools (good marching bands/great athletics/lower engineering reputations) or the more expensive higher ranked engineering programs? After navigating his two older brothers through this, the choices were clear. Not so much with son #3 ... he is actively seeking guidance, and visits (mostly virtual) and Zoom conversations (MEH!) have been truly unremarkable.
If a lot of college is throw-away, CRT haranging, even in STEM now, I'm inclined to promote the full-ride choice so he can at least play in the band.
Thank you, Chris! This is so helpful, and I had my son read your suggestions ... he thanks you, too. My first two were so DONE with school after undergrad, they went right into industry (accounting and crypto-currency), so the Masters advice is especially notworthy for son#3 to consider. He has decided on Purdue, and there is a MS+1 EE/Computer engineering option. If he likes this, he may just go this route. I still believe that STEM = Freedom, and with his music, in Purdue's big band, I am hopeful he'll have a social life. Again, it's so great to hear from someone like you who is experiencing the field today. Regards.
WHOO-HOO, Big 10! Purdue v. Michigan State, should be a great basketball rivalry next season. You are very generous. So glad to "meet" you and bounce around ideas. I will forward your email, and will make sure we don't become a bother.
I agree. I just believe there are more career options today where a degree is not required than in the past. But, I agree that a degree is still required for many career paths.
I think the issue is not that college education is overrated - but that the quality of education in college has decreased so precipitously over the past two decades (because of all the CRT stuff...) that it's impossible to get the education that you are ostensibly paying for.
Right now, elite colleges are primarily social networking clubs, which provide career opportunities with alumni, and lifelong networking opportunities with dorm/house mates.
For a select few, it's a means to further their interest in a passion - and help discover the next cure for disease or means to orbit the earth without the use of fossil fuels. For most others, especially in the humanities (says a humanities major), it's 4 years of fart-smelling, punctuated by fun weekends and other bonding activities, be it team sports, model UN, a capella, college radio DJ, etc.
I’m a Brit and we sent both our kids to the USA (Columbia NY and Rice Tx) for what we then perceived to be the finest education... I believe both our kids now in their mid 30s might have been infected by the leftist ideology but they now seem to be waking up and smelling the cool aid. For a good basic education in the humanities I’d say Hillsdale College sounds a good bet. They take zero federal funding.... and I’ve heard University of Chicago is a bastion of hope
I remember choosing between Mr. / Ms. / Mrs. on some forms. That never seemed too difficult.
I remember when even "Ms" was considered radical!
When my kids get asked what to put as their pronouns, I will forward them this list: https://www.englishclub.com/grammar/pronouns-indefinite.htm
Valid points. I would say perhaps there are more career avenues available without a degree nowadays but, yes, some career paths require it.
The higher education industry in this country -- and it is a voracious industry, regardless of 501(c)(3) charitable status -- needs to be disrupted. And one silver lining of COVID is that this needed disruption will be accelerated. (I hope!)