This is a deeply personal piece, and I appreciate that. I'm trying to fit it into my experiences and coming up a bit short. I came from a literally dirt poor family (our first log cabin had a packed dirt floor) with no electricity or running water, and home schooled through grade 10. The outhouse was the way of doing business. Four kids,…
This is a deeply personal piece, and I appreciate that. I'm trying to fit it into my experiences and coming up a bit short. I came from a literally dirt poor family (our first log cabin had a packed dirt floor) with no electricity or running water, and home schooled through grade 10. The outhouse was the way of doing business. Four kids, nuclear family, parents quit drinking before we were sentient. All four of us have reasonably comfortable lives and families. Bit of providence there, but maybe statistically significant? Leaning towards the core nuclear family as the prominent factor instead of being poor. Thoughts?
I agree. There are people in poor neighborhoods that are noble and live right. I do not like this wealth divide. Morals and values should not depend on socioeconomic class.
Being poor reduces your options and puts pressure on everything in life. I suspect people are then more prone to taking out their stress and frustrations on other people, and the ones close get the mother load. A bit of wealth opens up our options and allows us to distance ourselves from the existential stress. I remember Mom and Dad agonizing over how to feed us kids. At one point, they had to empty our piggy banks and pool the money. We got IOUs. It's a very different world that my family and I live in now (my wife had a similar upbringing), but we remember. I think our masters in the establishment have had too many generations apart from reality to understand life. We humans don't seem to do well with too much time on our hands.
Your piggy bank experience as a child is very similar to one I had. My father needed gas money so he could get to a job interview. He didn't get the job, and the IOU went unpaid. He'd been blacklisted because he reported his previous employer for safety violations. They couldn't fire him, so instead they made his life a living hell at work until he quit. We lost pretty much everything. I don't think he ever fully recovered from that experience.
I've long thought that multi-generational wealth is extremely dangerous. Some families seem to handle it OK for the most part, but many do not. In my opinion Andrew Carnegie had the right idea in regards to wealth.
It should easier to be noble from a place of abundance, but judging from the plethora of self-professed and self-serving "elites" out there pretty easy to be ignoble as well. To face hardship with dignity is IMO very noble.
Kids don't get to choose their family and they have little or no control over their parents. Emphasizing family (Particularly the traditional definition of family) just makes those of us who didn't have a particularly great family situation feel even more shitty.
Emphasizing community seems like a better path to me, and it's something that many conservatives I know believe in (generally by way of the Church), but spend too little time emphasizing. Also, it's something that should be emphasized and concentrated on outside of the Church as well.
Todays "conservatives" spend far too much time talking about freedom and too little talking about responsibility.
I think it's fair to say that liberals have lost their way, but so have conservatives.
You misunderstand. Conservatives, at least in my experience, value responsibility and personal accountability. They just want the freedom.to decide what that is instead of the government. The left always bemoans trickle down economics but never examines it's trickle down social policies. I think if we are honest we will acknowledge those are disastrous.
Where things get tricky is when my desire to exercise my freedom to do something overlaps yours. Say for instance I want do some target practice in my backyard at three AM when most people prefer to sleep. In an advanced society somebody needs to arbitrate those kinds of conflicts. If not the government, then who?
It's legit to debate where to draw the line on what the government gets to arbitrate, but it doesn't make sense to me to imply that the government is categorically wrong to do that job.
Most communities have laws for that. Criminal laws if it is prohibited and if it is not prohibited you are free to fire away. We have that exact scenario in my unincorporated part of a rapidly growing county. Noise violations are subject to the same violations which leave civil nuisance suits. Which are defended by it is not illegal. That is different than regulation by unelected bureaucrat fiat. And we have seen the rise of that in light of Congress' abandonment of its legislative function.
Present day Liberals tend to talk about responsibility without talking about freedom, or acknowledging their own privilege. Present day conservatives tend to talk about freedom without wanting to discuss their responsibilities, which many seem to view as only including waving the flag and pissing off the libtards.
Yes, I'm generalizing excessively. I'm human, it happens.
Yeah, I'm human too. It's crazy how much hubris our government has to think it can fix shit that has been going on since time immemorial. If they throw enough money at it.
I can see the value of an intact family as well. That wasn't my point.
It in no way helps children to hear this, particularly when emphasis is put on the word "traditional". Especially when those words are uttered by adults who have no clue the negative impact those words have.
To be clear, while my parents had a less than ideal/happy marriage, I was far better off than many others in that area. Still, coming home from school to see my dad carrying boxes of his stuff out of the house for the third or fourth time (it would not be the last) was far from the high point of my childhood.
People with traditional values should not be marginalized because they are not universal. No one's values are universal and if I am to respect values different from mine, mine need to be respected too. For many of us those values are based on 2,000 years of growth. For others, far longer than that. So they are traditional as compared newly created values.
You're right. The world's no utopia and kids pay the price based on the luck of the draw, and through no fault of their own. Community structures outside the family have a place, especially for those with unhappy childhoods. My purpose in life is to provide for and protect my family. That gives life meaning. Having seen wartorn countries where human life was cheap, even though I despise our ruling class, I'm hoping everything holds together so my daughters can have a peaceful life. Utopia is a destructive dream.
1000X this. I fully agree that family is perhaps the most important factor in getting a leg up in life. It’s also beyond the control of the individual and leaves no room for personal agency. It’s akin to progressives telling blacks they’re doomed to a life of disadvantage based on their skin color. There has to be exposure to alternative paths out of poverty. I broke a generational legacy of abuse, poverty, and addiction but it involved severing ties with almost all of my family. I’m a huge believer in personal agency but it still only goes so far when you’re in a hole. Eventually you need a hand up (and I’m not referring to government social programs). Community can be found in church yes, but also school or work.
Family is a form of government and is the most important, as well as effective. Every step up in size, be it neighborhood, town, etc enables participants more opportunity for failure. The devolution of the family is the root of most of our social ills.
This is a deeply personal piece, and I appreciate that. I'm trying to fit it into my experiences and coming up a bit short. I came from a literally dirt poor family (our first log cabin had a packed dirt floor) with no electricity or running water, and home schooled through grade 10. The outhouse was the way of doing business. Four kids, nuclear family, parents quit drinking before we were sentient. All four of us have reasonably comfortable lives and families. Bit of providence there, but maybe statistically significant? Leaning towards the core nuclear family as the prominent factor instead of being poor. Thoughts?
I agree. There are people in poor neighborhoods that are noble and live right. I do not like this wealth divide. Morals and values should not depend on socioeconomic class.
I agree in general, but it's much easier to be noble when you are not living hand to mouth.
Being poor reduces your options and puts pressure on everything in life. I suspect people are then more prone to taking out their stress and frustrations on other people, and the ones close get the mother load. A bit of wealth opens up our options and allows us to distance ourselves from the existential stress. I remember Mom and Dad agonizing over how to feed us kids. At one point, they had to empty our piggy banks and pool the money. We got IOUs. It's a very different world that my family and I live in now (my wife had a similar upbringing), but we remember. I think our masters in the establishment have had too many generations apart from reality to understand life. We humans don't seem to do well with too much time on our hands.
Your piggy bank experience as a child is very similar to one I had. My father needed gas money so he could get to a job interview. He didn't get the job, and the IOU went unpaid. He'd been blacklisted because he reported his previous employer for safety violations. They couldn't fire him, so instead they made his life a living hell at work until he quit. We lost pretty much everything. I don't think he ever fully recovered from that experience.
I've long thought that multi-generational wealth is extremely dangerous. Some families seem to handle it OK for the most part, but many do not. In my opinion Andrew Carnegie had the right idea in regards to wealth.
It should easier to be noble from a place of abundance, but judging from the plethora of self-professed and self-serving "elites" out there pretty easy to be ignoble as well. To face hardship with dignity is IMO very noble.
Quitting the alcohol may have made more difference than anything else.
I don't believe you can separate them.
Kids don't get to choose their family and they have little or no control over their parents. Emphasizing family (Particularly the traditional definition of family) just makes those of us who didn't have a particularly great family situation feel even more shitty.
Emphasizing community seems like a better path to me, and it's something that many conservatives I know believe in (generally by way of the Church), but spend too little time emphasizing. Also, it's something that should be emphasized and concentrated on outside of the Church as well.
Todays "conservatives" spend far too much time talking about freedom and too little talking about responsibility.
I think it's fair to say that liberals have lost their way, but so have conservatives.
You misunderstand. Conservatives, at least in my experience, value responsibility and personal accountability. They just want the freedom.to decide what that is instead of the government. The left always bemoans trickle down economics but never examines it's trickle down social policies. I think if we are honest we will acknowledge those are disastrous.
Where things get tricky is when my desire to exercise my freedom to do something overlaps yours. Say for instance I want do some target practice in my backyard at three AM when most people prefer to sleep. In an advanced society somebody needs to arbitrate those kinds of conflicts. If not the government, then who?
It's legit to debate where to draw the line on what the government gets to arbitrate, but it doesn't make sense to me to imply that the government is categorically wrong to do that job.
Most communities have laws for that. Criminal laws if it is prohibited and if it is not prohibited you are free to fire away. We have that exact scenario in my unincorporated part of a rapidly growing county. Noise violations are subject to the same violations which leave civil nuisance suits. Which are defended by it is not illegal. That is different than regulation by unelected bureaucrat fiat. And we have seen the rise of that in light of Congress' abandonment of its legislative function.
But freedom is responsibility.
I completely agree.
Present day Liberals tend to talk about responsibility without talking about freedom, or acknowledging their own privilege. Present day conservatives tend to talk about freedom without wanting to discuss their responsibilities, which many seem to view as only including waving the flag and pissing off the libtards.
Yes, I'm generalizing excessively. I'm human, it happens.
Yeah, I'm human too. It's crazy how much hubris our government has to think it can fix shit that has been going on since time immemorial. If they throw enough money at it.
If they take enough money from the populace and throw money at it without safeguarding that the money actually gets to what it is thrown at.
I mean no disrespect but just because something makes you feel
shitty, doesn’t mean it’s untrue. I also came from a split family with loads of other problems but I can see the value of an intact family.
I think community can have an important impact but unfortunately for kids like us, IMO, not as big as family.
I can see the value of an intact family as well. That wasn't my point.
It in no way helps children to hear this, particularly when emphasis is put on the word "traditional". Especially when those words are uttered by adults who have no clue the negative impact those words have.
To be clear, while my parents had a less than ideal/happy marriage, I was far better off than many others in that area. Still, coming home from school to see my dad carrying boxes of his stuff out of the house for the third or fourth time (it would not be the last) was far from the high point of my childhood.
People with traditional values should not be marginalized because they are not universal. No one's values are universal and if I am to respect values different from mine, mine need to be respected too. For many of us those values are based on 2,000 years of growth. For others, far longer than that. So they are traditional as compared newly created values.
You're right. The world's no utopia and kids pay the price based on the luck of the draw, and through no fault of their own. Community structures outside the family have a place, especially for those with unhappy childhoods. My purpose in life is to provide for and protect my family. That gives life meaning. Having seen wartorn countries where human life was cheap, even though I despise our ruling class, I'm hoping everything holds together so my daughters can have a peaceful life. Utopia is a destructive dream.
1000X this. I fully agree that family is perhaps the most important factor in getting a leg up in life. It’s also beyond the control of the individual and leaves no room for personal agency. It’s akin to progressives telling blacks they’re doomed to a life of disadvantage based on their skin color. There has to be exposure to alternative paths out of poverty. I broke a generational legacy of abuse, poverty, and addiction but it involved severing ties with almost all of my family. I’m a huge believer in personal agency but it still only goes so far when you’re in a hole. Eventually you need a hand up (and I’m not referring to government social programs). Community can be found in church yes, but also school or work.
You also have to drop the shovel.
Family is key and should be encouraged/promoted by all levels of society and Government. Family is the bedrock
Family is a form of government and is the most important, as well as effective. Every step up in size, be it neighborhood, town, etc enables participants more opportunity for failure. The devolution of the family is the root of most of our social ills.