Ah, the war that never ends. Perhaps someone should have reminded the feminists of the old adage, “sometimes it’s better to quit while you’re ahead”. Unfortunately, it seems that movements, like government programs and agencies never go away. They just keep moving the goal posts. It’s no coincidence that this latest iteration of feminism incubated in the hallowed grounds of academia. I have to admit that I’m a bit amused by it all. After years of fighting to get more women onto college campuses and into positions of authority within them to fight misogyny, it turns out that the academics they spawned are, wait for it; misogynists.
Fortunately for the gals, it is trivial compared to the war on men by women. Normally, men - generally much stronger, larger, more aggressive, would do that which they've always done - defend women and put this "gender" nonsense to bed. Now most of us have other fish to fry. Enjoy your "freedom from male oppression."
I understand your anger. I was shocked by the statistics of how poorly men are doing (suicides, support services, on the job deaths, divorce)and there is an incredible documentary on it whose name escapes me right now. You are right to point out that a few men are acting aggressively to subdue women and many good men have opted out due to past mistreatment.
Nobody's angry. There is a very big difference between angry and fed-up. I'm fed-up, and largely because these - as Limbaugh called them - Femi-Nazis and their soy-boy supplicants have made life miserable for men AND women - creatures who are natural allies, not enemies - and worse, miserable as well for their unfortunate offspring.
Yes. Facts don't care about anyone's feelings, and I certainly don't. The fact is that men - mostly those dead white men that the Left and "feminists" love to hate - built the entire physical world and continue to keep it running, and nothing changes that fact. Men are generally more interested in things; women are generally more interested in people. Men built the material world, and women built everybody in it, and without those women our world would not exist. If you deleted men's accomplishments out of the history books, they would be the thickness of a Marvel comic. If you took all women's material accomplishments out, you couldn't tell the difference. If you, OTOH, took out all the great thinkers, do-ers, and leaders created by women, THAT book would look like a comic; I can't think of a single great human being reared exclusively by a man.
We are not the same; we are different. We in general have different interests and, yes, abilities. That's a good thing, and it is that difference which has allowed us to attack our common problems from different directions and become the dominant species in this world of incredible hardships.
Good plan. I can do that. You? How about you design, build, and maintain the dams, steam turbines, reactors and alternators that bring electricity to keep your backside warm in winter and cool in summer. Climb the 135' tall towers and string the cables. Use the 65# chain saws and cut down the trees, wrestle them onto trucks, and saw them into the boards that keep that warm air indoors. Cast, draw and thread the pipes that bring water into your little warm spot and take your poo away when you're done with the latest oh-so-smart little missive about "toxic masculinity."
Naw. The fact is that over the course of history, men and women have cooperated in a viciously dangerous and difficult world to move humanity forward - sometimes by fits and starts, but forward - each doing the jobs FOR WHICH THEY WERE BEST SUITED. In the real world, though, aggressiveness occasionally gets turned in the wrong direction, but its benefits seem pretty great when someone threatens your family. Everything is a double-edged sword. Smart people know that.
Naw. In the comfort of modernity, almost all of which was invented, produced, and maintained by men using that sometimes admittedly, testosterone-fueled aggressiveness, as you say, SOME women are attacking those people who made their comfortable little world possible. And SOME men are well and truly fed up with it.
MGTOW? Why would anyone do that, when the world is filled with women who are smart enough to know all these things, and easily accessible by those big, mean old airplanes - sometimes flown by Western women, but once again, in fact, invented by Western men.
It might be interesting to see a world without men; questions of reproduction aside, it would likely consist of mud huts - if the gals could figure out how to stack the mud. Maybe men and women should get off each others' backs and return to cooperating to keep moving humanity forward, instead of tearing each other to shreds - just like the globalists want - so they can then give orders to us all.
Men do most of the dangerous, necessary, and backbreaking work of keeping things working, while women do most of the backbreaking work of raising children. This is the reality people ignore at their peril.
No working man I ever knew ignored it, minimised it, or failed to appreciate it. Only other women, and then only the college-educated women with no children of their own.
Jim, lots of women don’t buy into this “I am woman, hear me roar” philosophy. They just do what they have to do in order to take care of themselves and their families. They don’t have the time or the energy to get on a soap box and complain, or waste time commiserating about what’s fair and what’s unfair. Unfortunately no one writes about those women. The media pontificates and writes and interviews the women coming out of academia with gender studies majors who have no relationship with reality. If they didn’t get up on a soap box to complain there would be no validation of their pointless time spent in university. So don’t assume that all women believe this shit
putting gender hood or woman hood above men. Most people just want to be treated fairly.
Agree completely. Most all of us are just trying to find our way; unfortunately the misfits and soreheads - who have always been with us - are now able to elbow their way to the loudest, highest soapboxes, and while they are in actuality a tiny minority, in these days they exert an outsized influence.
When I get a few minutes, I'll share my experience in growing up in rural West Virginia in the 'fifties. My mother was born in 1911, my father 1904; add to that Appalachia's traditional twenty-years-behind-the-times, and you have a glimpse into the far past. As they say, sometimes fantasy gets mugged by reality, and having lived during those times when women and men staggered from cradle to grave working the skin off their fingers might just be enlightening.
You ok, hun? Lot of pent up anger there. Looks like you really need to talk about your feelings. Maybe a counselor or a trained expert who can help.
We'll be nice and will pretend men haven't historically subjugated women and barred them from education and participating in the public world outside of home, which prevented them from achieving more for the greater good of humankind. We'll even pretend all men, even losers dwelling in their parents' basements watching Pornhub all day (not you of course, but they are out there), by doing nothing except by virtue of being born male, should claim credit for inventions and tough work done by a small selected group of commendable men.
This is nonsense. Most women have ALWAYS worked, because most businesses and professions were family businesses and professions (not wage-earning ones), and everyone in the family worked at them. Few MEN were ever educated, and the wives and daughters of those lucky few were usually educated to the same extent they were. It's true that in the West women had fewer legal rights, but that was not done in order to oppress women, it was based on centuries of developing law, and in the current West has not been the case for several generations. The vast majority of men have always done all the dangerous, difficult, horrible work, from fighting wars to digging tunnels in sheer rock -- all the work most likely to cripple, maim, and kill. They were not designing bridges or signing treaties. This is a fantasy view of history that does no one, male or female, any good to espouse.
I agree. Plus to say women did not work is ludicrous. Keeping a home and family is hard, hard daylight to dusk and beyond work. It is not coincidence that the availability of birth control and progress in women's rights occurred simultaneously.
What is this bizarre “macho”/insecure response from Jim? Sorry to be ad hominem, but like... one of the points of the article is that only recently have women been able to escape the shackles imposed on them by men only for female liberation to be hijacked by men.
His point is uncannily similar to the argument that black slaves couldn’t possibly survive in American civil society because well, they’d only ever been slaves. It’s been what ~100-120 years that women have been ‘allowed’ to have occupations outside the home, but yeah go off about how if men didn’t exist, we would only have mud huts.
Fortunately, I’ve had plenty of female friends who are far more intelligent than me to prevent me from being so ignorant.
I disagree (obviously). I don’t disagree that there are sex differences regarding, for example, physical strength. But Jim makes his disdain of women clear when he says:
“It might be interesting to see a world without men; questions of reproduction aside, it would likely consist of mud huts - if the gals could figure out how to stack the mud”.
Women may be on average physically weaker, but to argue to that women wouldn’t be able to “figure out” engineering without men is rubbish. Re my apples to oranges arguments, women have not been accepted in the engineering profession until recently; that doesn’t mean that they haven’t always been capable of doing so.
Can women design buildings and be good, even great, engineers? Of course they can. But most women do not want to be engineers. That's a fact as well. If there were no men around, the pool of women available with the desire and the capacity to do the things generally done by men would be a smaller proportion of the total remaining population than it is now. It doesn't help to pretend otherwise.
I've met outstanding female engineers I admire... in and environment of effeminate, gossiping, low virtue men... thanks to the very same feminists...the result of destroying the necessity of a father or spitting or cursing on his virtue because feminists couldn't tell the difference between competence and actual violence and abuse.
Yeah for the record, I agree with everything written in the original article, and am completely disturbed by extreme trans ideology. But I was a bit confused by comments devolving into arguments against a woman’s innate capacity, so let’s agree to disagree.
I'm movin' on from all this for a while. Things to do. People to harrass.
Mainly I know when I've been bested and am not even competitive.
"It might be interesting to see a world without men; questions of reproduction aside, it would likely consist of mud huts - if the gals could figure out how to stack the mud. Maybe men and women should get off each others' backs and return to cooperating to keep moving humanity forward, instead of tearing each other to shreds - just like the globalists want - so they can then give orders to us all."
Sorry - I probably shouldn't have been so snarky, but I like to think I'm a good guy; I've worked my ass off my whole life, literally dug ditches, installed septic systems for old ladies in the holler where I grew up - all at no cost, fixed every damned thing for every damned person I can name, for free. I went to med school on a shoestring, lying in snow and water to fix my VW so my girlfriend - later wife - and I could get around. I've never done anything mean to anybody and I am just fed up with being attacked for the crime of being a MAN. Fed up to here.
Men can be pretty credulous but women can, too, and anybody who thinks this "feminist" stuff has anything to do with "equality" needs to wise up. The world is hard. It's hard for everybody, and the fact is that men do 95% of the physically demanding, dirty, and dangerous jobs.
That is just what we do, and we don't complain about it. This issue is merely one more wedge to pit Westerners against each other; our masters have big, big plans for us, and to my eye we are definitely helping.
You are the kind I looked for. And found. God bless and keep you all. And as an aside that does not mean I am in any manner submissive. We are truly partners and each of us has a valuable skill set or sets.
The snark started from the women IMO, followed by you making a reason for your thoughts and an appeal for working together. I also didn't hear a the classic bitchy "You ok, hun?" from you... nor did you launch immediately to character assassination, nor did you falsely associate someone with a particular movement. You did do one huge mistake, criticize a woman.
Don't bother, Jim. Just sit here and enjoy the schadenfreude I'm getting from watching a movement espouse its virtues that has exploded on them in only one century. I think even Communism had a longer lifetime...
Feminism as much as I want to separate the wheat from the chaffe has given people I care about an identity crisis not just in gender, but as their worth as mothers and wives whether they be stay and home or working mothers. It has created the very abusive men they've wanted to avoid by destroying the honor of being a self-sacrificing father in the eyes of Christ or promoting a stable family, demonizing a mother that does choose to stay home with her family as well as help influence policy that makes single working parent income impossible to live on. I'd even blame them for the amount of MLMs mothers get suckered into and being their main revenue.
You've done good, Jim. You don't need to defend yourself, just sit back and shake your head in bewilderment. If you've raised a family and provided for a home and did some level of decent parenting, you've done more than feminism has ever done for the family outside of the real saints in the past that tried to start up shelters for abused women instead of violating their insides to kill innocent children.
It's really quite something to watch this subthread unfold. Jim here really does sound like a good person, and I mean that sincerely regarding what he's done in life. But dare I say he's being way too sensitive? His diatribe was "provoked", yes, but not by someone else's snarky response, but his own snarky 'Enjoy your "freedom from male oppression", in an article about women being suppressed.
And given everything he said about himself, it's baffling that he should take some third-wave feminists' complaints against men so personally. A more self-assured man who knows his worth would know the complaints are about men who behave badly, and not directed at him personally. Instead he unleashes a series of grievances and unfair indictments against women for being supposedly inferior. Something touched a nerve and one can only wonder if underneath, he's just basically sexist. That's ok. He's entitled. Women have had to put up with sexist men since the beginning of time and it's not going to end here.
But now people are coming along to console him because his feelings are hurt. In an article about injustices against women today, Jim has succeeded to turning the focus to him and his grievances as a man, with another man telling him he's done more for women than other women have ever done.
Seriously, dudes. Man up. You've had thousands of years to women having barely over 100 years, and not exactly as full equals in those 100 years either. Maybe stop letting your feelings get in the way and stop taking everything so personally. It isn't all about you.
I don’t think it’s possible to tag anyone else, so guess I’m just talking to you QX haha.
I do not understand the replies about “women have always worked, you don’t understand history” thing. I tried to phrase carefully when I said: “It’s been what ~100-120 years that women have been ‘allowed’ to have occupations outside the home”, which is more or less roughly accurate? Happy to be corrected (seriously).
I apologise to anyone if I’ve provoked sexist disdain, and I apologise more widely if any of my comments come across with Kamala Harris-level condescension :p
Welp... here I am... watching a woman tell a man to man up and not consider feelings.
"A more self-assured man who knows his worth would know the complaints are about men who behave badly, and not directed at him personally." You chauvinist. How dare you. Toxic masculinity. In all seriousness though, I agree.
"Instead he unleashes a series of grievances and unfair indictments against women for being supposedly inferior. Something touched a nerve and one can only wonder if underneath, he's just basically sexist. That's ok. He's entitled. Women have had to put up with sexist men since the beginning of time and it's not going to end here."
I think putting up with certain people is part of his problem as well. However, your justifications are exactly why a very tall man is destroying his swimming competition right now, I'm not optimistic that grit, magical thinking, and determination is going to remove his edge. Maybe steroids or testosterone supplements. So we're not being sexists, we're being realists. I don't think Jim would want to give birth to children, or navigate the wonderful world of female to female friendships (ok now I'm being sexist, but if it's true I don't care. ists and isms don't scare me anymore.) And there is a lot of God giving talents that I see women excel at in my workspace that if the battle of the sexes thing just stop, we would see a lot of cheesy synergy kick into high gear. The problem seems to be we both piss on each other's grievances and have a dick measuring contest with it. Both become incensed and nothing changes.
"But now people are coming along to console him because his feelings are hurt. In an article about injustices against women today, Jim has succeeded to turning the focus to him and his grievances as a man, with another man telling him he's done more for women than other women have ever done."
Well I screwed up because that wasn't what I was trying to communicate, I don't think anyone who can read believes women haven't suffered through history. The thing is I don't think you realize the irony of your last two paragraphs. Men, including myself, have lived life basically having our grievances off focus from us because it feels literally like our job description. You have done what you have just accused us of... and you do it quite frequently... when things don't go your way. It's actually a similarity men and women could have a discussion on. Women have their own versions of it too... OB/GYN and childbirth is full of really crappy doctors with an attitude of writing off women's concerns because "hormones'," "hysterical." And then anything involving rearing children with a family size more than 3 is your fault to the working managerial classes. There are many men who had bad fathers who taught them terribly like to completely delegate all child related issues and rearing to women and literally will stand their and watch a mother do all the work when he could easily assist, aid, or even lead. These father's teach similar to what women deal with earlier... man up, your feelings are irrelevant, but be more in touch with your feelings... but don't screw up...
I have a no sympathy for feminism because it creates and distorts what it claims to fight against... I have no sympathy for a movement that has spawned child murderers. A movement that will say it's women's rights, but encourages a man-child to continue being. So when I see Jim get a little terse, just like the ladies get. I feel for him, because I know the ladies got each other covered regardless of whether they are dead wrong.
But you're right, Jim probably shouldn't of did those things.
F* you, Jim. How dare you fall off your horse, better that you should of died before that happened.
Well, Dan, believe it or not, if we ever have a beer together, you'll find we'd disagree some, but actually agree on a lot.
I'm not sure how anything I said had brought about Lia Thomas swimming against women, but that's a whole load of worms that I think digress from the main points here. The crux of all the problems is as you said, "The problem seems to be we both piss on each other's grievances and have a dick measuring contest with it. Both become incensed and nothing changes." But where you and I might've diverged is that I see it mainly as two loud groups of people with a hold of the microphone. Somehow, they've made a career out of being the talking heads. But because they're the loudest and their voices are amplified by the media and those with platforms, they purport to represent everyone they claim to represent. My point about Jim is none of us should take any of it as an attack against us personally unless we are what these people accuse us of being. I'm not sympathetic when someone use ideological complaints as a reason to tell victims, "you're now on your own."
Look at it this way: Men have legitimate grievances today from all societal accusations and expectations, all as you described. It's unfair. It's unjust. So an individual man has had enough. Now a fourteen-year-old girl in your local swimming pool is changing and a full grown forty-year-old man who calls himself a woman walks in and he strips in front of her? Ha! Too bad! You're on your own. You asked for this!
How do you square with this?
I do support women's rights, but I'm not going to own the part that sprouted things like men should be man-child, etc. Just as "not all men", I never supported any of that. I don't even really know what they mean by "toxic masculinity". It's one of those terms where the definition seems obvious, when in fact everyone interprets it as they think what it means.
Same with "feminism". Just from the comments here, it's telling that people have different interpretations of what "feminism" is. But it doesn't matter. It's not even a movement anymore anyway. It hasn't been since 2000. Today it's a corporate brand, and a grift for professional activists, just like every other "movement" today.
We won't ever agree on the issue of abortion. But for whatever it's worth, I am very concerned with boys' needs being ignored. It is very disturbing to see no attention whatsoever paid to what positive roles and contributions men can bring to society. (And if we're to be real, it's not hard labor that a majority of men wouldn't want to do either.) I do think there should be a larger discussion about what it means to be a man today, with men talking to boys about that, including how men should properly behave and relate to women so we can minimize sexual assaults, domestic violence, job discriminations, etc. Instead of griping about feminists, why not put your time and effort into what's actually constructive?
You are right, I'm being nihilistic or black-pilled about it. Maybe the biggest evil between all this feminism, class war, race war, grievance war stuff is it's made it impossible for all of us to be a whole human family because of all the wounds created in trying to bring in our own utopia and meet expectations... it's made it impossible for us to not talk over and around each other, myself included. I would have that beer together with you as well.
C'mon, QX! I was gonna cut You a brand new arsehole for that first paragraph that has the "Hon" in it. Like You're showing how self-assured You are by throwing ad hominems? Goes for Joshua too (but thanks for the likes :). Yeah, that about the huts was over-the-top, but it wasn't an ad hominem against You was it? So what IS Your excuse.
Me? I'd ask You and Joshua to correct me if I'm wrong: I thought we were living in the third millennium, in the year 2022. What year are You describing?
And I would expect that this statement got a pass because both=a You have a prejudice against men. Yeah, may be hard to believe, but then there's this statement: "work done by a small selected group of commendable men."
Anyone wanna lower this conversation down to a matter of FACTUAL talk?
Hey jt, for whatever it's worth, I didn't realize you're still following this thread as you said above that you were moving on. To be clear my comment was meant to describe Dan and Kathy B.
I don't have a prejudice against men. And to be clear again, when I said " a small group of commendable men", it's not to say the number of men who did great things were small. It is to say that the percentage of men who did all those stuff listed by Jim is in fact small comparing to the overall population of men. Most men didn't invent squat. Most men right now are not out there logging, mining, or doing any form of hard labor. So for men today to raise these as proof of male superiority is not a good argument. That's the point I was making.
But I do commend men (and some women too) who do those kind of work for all of us. Let's face it, we'd all be screwed without them. So I say it's really just a small selected group of people--mostly men admittedly--with the physical strength and the willingness to take on those jobs. It's not really men per se taking on those jobs. Most men don't want to and are unwilling to as well.
I didn’t realise this thread was still going, my bad. Thanks to JT for admitting that the mud huts thing was over the top. For my part, I don’t have a prejudice against men; however, I was confused by the original airing-of-grievances diatribe that was focussed on putting down the potential of women in general.
FYI I’m on board with their being very clear, innate sex differences (on average), aside from the even more obvious physical differences. For example, males are on average more likely to want to “spread” their culture, which is why they tend dominate entrepreneurial areas (to unfairly summarise the argument, I think I got that from Jordan Peterson?).
Most importantly and fortunately, this whole thread is 1000x civil than on twitter haha
Okay. I'll retract SOME-a what I said. No, not all of it, but the part You dealt with.
But You identified another topic that doesn't precisely pertain but is a big problem.
Men, and women too, who work with their hands instead-a all the abstracts in the head are really looked down on by a LOTTA the college-educated. Actually, beneath notice. And don't get paid a fraction-a what the college-educated make, over a lifetime, right?
But, for a few years anyway, they make up TWO-THIRDS (2/3) of Americans. And, while they may not always be able to speak as eruditely as a lotta us, they intuitively know they're getting the shaft, big time, right?
All this arguing between men and women subtracts from Jim's point, if You reread it. People. Working together. To get by.
There are indeed a lot of women in this world who see in misogyny a perfect weapon to take out their female competition. I'm convinced that a lot of the women who are supporting this men-in-women's-sports bullshit look at the girls who are competing and seethe with resentment because who do those bitches think they are getting medals and attention.
Its called “relational aggression”. Women do it all the time in the work place. Its grounded in how we are raised, culture and gender-based play theory.
I looked up the ncaa Board of Governors. Made up of chancellors of universities. The far majority are male. Robert Gates is on it. That tells you everything. I don’t believe that representation must exactly match the people being governed but that sure speaks to academia and whats happening in it.
Another war against women by men. What’s new? No matter the rhetoric the fact remains only women can get pregnant. Live with it.
This is a war against women BY other women in the name of “compassion”.
"Another war against women by men"
Ah, the war that never ends. Perhaps someone should have reminded the feminists of the old adage, “sometimes it’s better to quit while you’re ahead”. Unfortunately, it seems that movements, like government programs and agencies never go away. They just keep moving the goal posts. It’s no coincidence that this latest iteration of feminism incubated in the hallowed grounds of academia. I have to admit that I’m a bit amused by it all. After years of fighting to get more women onto college campuses and into positions of authority within them to fight misogyny, it turns out that the academics they spawned are, wait for it; misogynists.
Fortunately for the gals, it is trivial compared to the war on men by women. Normally, men - generally much stronger, larger, more aggressive, would do that which they've always done - defend women and put this "gender" nonsense to bed. Now most of us have other fish to fry. Enjoy your "freedom from male oppression."
Found the documentary and TED talk. The TED talk is Cassie Jaye: Meeting the Enemy. The documentary is the Red Pill.
I've seen it. It's quite good.
I watched the TED talk--it was very moving, not the least for how she was able to change her position when she got new information.
I understand your anger. I was shocked by the statistics of how poorly men are doing (suicides, support services, on the job deaths, divorce)and there is an incredible documentary on it whose name escapes me right now. You are right to point out that a few men are acting aggressively to subdue women and many good men have opted out due to past mistreatment.
Nobody's angry. There is a very big difference between angry and fed-up. I'm fed-up, and largely because these - as Limbaugh called them - Femi-Nazis and their soy-boy supplicants have made life miserable for men AND women - creatures who are natural allies, not enemies - and worse, miserable as well for their unfortunate offspring.
Naw. It's a war on men by *some* women. Not all women. But most of us have other fish to fry now too so enjoy your MGTOW.
Nothing Jim wrote was MGTOW. You have anger issues to work out to jump to that.
Yes. Facts don't care about anyone's feelings, and I certainly don't. The fact is that men - mostly those dead white men that the Left and "feminists" love to hate - built the entire physical world and continue to keep it running, and nothing changes that fact. Men are generally more interested in things; women are generally more interested in people. Men built the material world, and women built everybody in it, and without those women our world would not exist. If you deleted men's accomplishments out of the history books, they would be the thickness of a Marvel comic. If you took all women's material accomplishments out, you couldn't tell the difference. If you, OTOH, took out all the great thinkers, do-ers, and leaders created by women, THAT book would look like a comic; I can't think of a single great human being reared exclusively by a man.
We are not the same; we are different. We in general have different interests and, yes, abilities. That's a good thing, and it is that difference which has allowed us to attack our common problems from different directions and become the dominant species in this world of incredible hardships.
Good plan. I can do that. You? How about you design, build, and maintain the dams, steam turbines, reactors and alternators that bring electricity to keep your backside warm in winter and cool in summer. Climb the 135' tall towers and string the cables. Use the 65# chain saws and cut down the trees, wrestle them onto trucks, and saw them into the boards that keep that warm air indoors. Cast, draw and thread the pipes that bring water into your little warm spot and take your poo away when you're done with the latest oh-so-smart little missive about "toxic masculinity."
Naw. The fact is that over the course of history, men and women have cooperated in a viciously dangerous and difficult world to move humanity forward - sometimes by fits and starts, but forward - each doing the jobs FOR WHICH THEY WERE BEST SUITED. In the real world, though, aggressiveness occasionally gets turned in the wrong direction, but its benefits seem pretty great when someone threatens your family. Everything is a double-edged sword. Smart people know that.
Naw. In the comfort of modernity, almost all of which was invented, produced, and maintained by men using that sometimes admittedly, testosterone-fueled aggressiveness, as you say, SOME women are attacking those people who made their comfortable little world possible. And SOME men are well and truly fed up with it.
MGTOW? Why would anyone do that, when the world is filled with women who are smart enough to know all these things, and easily accessible by those big, mean old airplanes - sometimes flown by Western women, but once again, in fact, invented by Western men.
It might be interesting to see a world without men; questions of reproduction aside, it would likely consist of mud huts - if the gals could figure out how to stack the mud. Maybe men and women should get off each others' backs and return to cooperating to keep moving humanity forward, instead of tearing each other to shreds - just like the globalists want - so they can then give orders to us all.
Men do most of the dangerous, necessary, and backbreaking work of keeping things working, while women do most of the backbreaking work of raising children. This is the reality people ignore at their peril.
No working man I ever knew ignored it, minimised it, or failed to appreciate it. Only other women, and then only the college-educated women with no children of their own.
Jim, lots of women don’t buy into this “I am woman, hear me roar” philosophy. They just do what they have to do in order to take care of themselves and their families. They don’t have the time or the energy to get on a soap box and complain, or waste time commiserating about what’s fair and what’s unfair. Unfortunately no one writes about those women. The media pontificates and writes and interviews the women coming out of academia with gender studies majors who have no relationship with reality. If they didn’t get up on a soap box to complain there would be no validation of their pointless time spent in university. So don’t assume that all women believe this shit
putting gender hood or woman hood above men. Most people just want to be treated fairly.
Agree completely. Most all of us are just trying to find our way; unfortunately the misfits and soreheads - who have always been with us - are now able to elbow their way to the loudest, highest soapboxes, and while they are in actuality a tiny minority, in these days they exert an outsized influence.
When I get a few minutes, I'll share my experience in growing up in rural West Virginia in the 'fifties. My mother was born in 1911, my father 1904; add to that Appalachia's traditional twenty-years-behind-the-times, and you have a glimpse into the far past. As they say, sometimes fantasy gets mugged by reality, and having lived during those times when women and men staggered from cradle to grave working the skin off their fingers might just be enlightening.
You ok, hun? Lot of pent up anger there. Looks like you really need to talk about your feelings. Maybe a counselor or a trained expert who can help.
We'll be nice and will pretend men haven't historically subjugated women and barred them from education and participating in the public world outside of home, which prevented them from achieving more for the greater good of humankind. We'll even pretend all men, even losers dwelling in their parents' basements watching Pornhub all day (not you of course, but they are out there), by doing nothing except by virtue of being born male, should claim credit for inventions and tough work done by a small selected group of commendable men.
This is nonsense. Most women have ALWAYS worked, because most businesses and professions were family businesses and professions (not wage-earning ones), and everyone in the family worked at them. Few MEN were ever educated, and the wives and daughters of those lucky few were usually educated to the same extent they were. It's true that in the West women had fewer legal rights, but that was not done in order to oppress women, it was based on centuries of developing law, and in the current West has not been the case for several generations. The vast majority of men have always done all the dangerous, difficult, horrible work, from fighting wars to digging tunnels in sheer rock -- all the work most likely to cripple, maim, and kill. They were not designing bridges or signing treaties. This is a fantasy view of history that does no one, male or female, any good to espouse.
I agree. Plus to say women did not work is ludicrous. Keeping a home and family is hard, hard daylight to dusk and beyond work. It is not coincidence that the availability of birth control and progress in women's rights occurred simultaneously.
What is this bizarre “macho”/insecure response from Jim? Sorry to be ad hominem, but like... one of the points of the article is that only recently have women been able to escape the shackles imposed on them by men only for female liberation to be hijacked by men.
His point is uncannily similar to the argument that black slaves couldn’t possibly survive in American civil society because well, they’d only ever been slaves. It’s been what ~100-120 years that women have been ‘allowed’ to have occupations outside the home, but yeah go off about how if men didn’t exist, we would only have mud huts.
Fortunately, I’ve had plenty of female friends who are far more intelligent than me to prevent me from being so ignorant.
Seemed pretty rational, also second paragraph is a stretch or an apple to root vegetables comparison.
The irony of this all is that he’s saying rubbish about a woman’s capacity to do anything on a post written by a woman on Bari Weiss’ substack.
I disagree (obviously). I don’t disagree that there are sex differences regarding, for example, physical strength. But Jim makes his disdain of women clear when he says:
“It might be interesting to see a world without men; questions of reproduction aside, it would likely consist of mud huts - if the gals could figure out how to stack the mud”.
Women may be on average physically weaker, but to argue to that women wouldn’t be able to “figure out” engineering without men is rubbish. Re my apples to oranges arguments, women have not been accepted in the engineering profession until recently; that doesn’t mean that they haven’t always been capable of doing so.
Can women design buildings and be good, even great, engineers? Of course they can. But most women do not want to be engineers. That's a fact as well. If there were no men around, the pool of women available with the desire and the capacity to do the things generally done by men would be a smaller proportion of the total remaining population than it is now. It doesn't help to pretend otherwise.
His "disdain" seemed provoked... a common tactic.
I've met outstanding female engineers I admire... in and environment of effeminate, gossiping, low virtue men... thanks to the very same feminists...the result of destroying the necessity of a father or spitting or cursing on his virtue because feminists couldn't tell the difference between competence and actual violence and abuse.
Yeah for the record, I agree with everything written in the original article, and am completely disturbed by extreme trans ideology. But I was a bit confused by comments devolving into arguments against a woman’s innate capacity, so let’s agree to disagree.
Agree they are sorta unrelated to the article. More or less was addressing the comments instead, which was unwise.
I'm movin' on from all this for a while. Things to do. People to harrass.
Mainly I know when I've been bested and am not even competitive.
"It might be interesting to see a world without men; questions of reproduction aside, it would likely consist of mud huts - if the gals could figure out how to stack the mud. Maybe men and women should get off each others' backs and return to cooperating to keep moving humanity forward, instead of tearing each other to shreds - just like the globalists want - so they can then give orders to us all."
Sorry - I probably shouldn't have been so snarky, but I like to think I'm a good guy; I've worked my ass off my whole life, literally dug ditches, installed septic systems for old ladies in the holler where I grew up - all at no cost, fixed every damned thing for every damned person I can name, for free. I went to med school on a shoestring, lying in snow and water to fix my VW so my girlfriend - later wife - and I could get around. I've never done anything mean to anybody and I am just fed up with being attacked for the crime of being a MAN. Fed up to here.
Men can be pretty credulous but women can, too, and anybody who thinks this "feminist" stuff has anything to do with "equality" needs to wise up. The world is hard. It's hard for everybody, and the fact is that men do 95% of the physically demanding, dirty, and dangerous jobs.
That is just what we do, and we don't complain about it. This issue is merely one more wedge to pit Westerners against each other; our masters have big, big plans for us, and to my eye we are definitely helping.
You are the kind I looked for. And found. God bless and keep you all. And as an aside that does not mean I am in any manner submissive. We are truly partners and each of us has a valuable skill set or sets.
The snark started from the women IMO, followed by you making a reason for your thoughts and an appeal for working together. I also didn't hear a the classic bitchy "You ok, hun?" from you... nor did you launch immediately to character assassination, nor did you falsely associate someone with a particular movement. You did do one huge mistake, criticize a woman.
Don't bother, Jim. Just sit here and enjoy the schadenfreude I'm getting from watching a movement espouse its virtues that has exploded on them in only one century. I think even Communism had a longer lifetime...
Feminism as much as I want to separate the wheat from the chaffe has given people I care about an identity crisis not just in gender, but as their worth as mothers and wives whether they be stay and home or working mothers. It has created the very abusive men they've wanted to avoid by destroying the honor of being a self-sacrificing father in the eyes of Christ or promoting a stable family, demonizing a mother that does choose to stay home with her family as well as help influence policy that makes single working parent income impossible to live on. I'd even blame them for the amount of MLMs mothers get suckered into and being their main revenue.
You've done good, Jim. You don't need to defend yourself, just sit back and shake your head in bewilderment. If you've raised a family and provided for a home and did some level of decent parenting, you've done more than feminism has ever done for the family outside of the real saints in the past that tried to start up shelters for abused women instead of violating their insides to kill innocent children.
It's really quite something to watch this subthread unfold. Jim here really does sound like a good person, and I mean that sincerely regarding what he's done in life. But dare I say he's being way too sensitive? His diatribe was "provoked", yes, but not by someone else's snarky response, but his own snarky 'Enjoy your "freedom from male oppression", in an article about women being suppressed.
And given everything he said about himself, it's baffling that he should take some third-wave feminists' complaints against men so personally. A more self-assured man who knows his worth would know the complaints are about men who behave badly, and not directed at him personally. Instead he unleashes a series of grievances and unfair indictments against women for being supposedly inferior. Something touched a nerve and one can only wonder if underneath, he's just basically sexist. That's ok. He's entitled. Women have had to put up with sexist men since the beginning of time and it's not going to end here.
But now people are coming along to console him because his feelings are hurt. In an article about injustices against women today, Jim has succeeded to turning the focus to him and his grievances as a man, with another man telling him he's done more for women than other women have ever done.
Seriously, dudes. Man up. You've had thousands of years to women having barely over 100 years, and not exactly as full equals in those 100 years either. Maybe stop letting your feelings get in the way and stop taking everything so personally. It isn't all about you.
I don’t think it’s possible to tag anyone else, so guess I’m just talking to you QX haha.
I do not understand the replies about “women have always worked, you don’t understand history” thing. I tried to phrase carefully when I said: “It’s been what ~100-120 years that women have been ‘allowed’ to have occupations outside the home”, which is more or less roughly accurate? Happy to be corrected (seriously).
I apologise to anyone if I’ve provoked sexist disdain, and I apologise more widely if any of my comments come across with Kamala Harris-level condescension :p
Welp... here I am... watching a woman tell a man to man up and not consider feelings.
"A more self-assured man who knows his worth would know the complaints are about men who behave badly, and not directed at him personally." You chauvinist. How dare you. Toxic masculinity. In all seriousness though, I agree.
"Instead he unleashes a series of grievances and unfair indictments against women for being supposedly inferior. Something touched a nerve and one can only wonder if underneath, he's just basically sexist. That's ok. He's entitled. Women have had to put up with sexist men since the beginning of time and it's not going to end here."
I think putting up with certain people is part of his problem as well. However, your justifications are exactly why a very tall man is destroying his swimming competition right now, I'm not optimistic that grit, magical thinking, and determination is going to remove his edge. Maybe steroids or testosterone supplements. So we're not being sexists, we're being realists. I don't think Jim would want to give birth to children, or navigate the wonderful world of female to female friendships (ok now I'm being sexist, but if it's true I don't care. ists and isms don't scare me anymore.) And there is a lot of God giving talents that I see women excel at in my workspace that if the battle of the sexes thing just stop, we would see a lot of cheesy synergy kick into high gear. The problem seems to be we both piss on each other's grievances and have a dick measuring contest with it. Both become incensed and nothing changes.
"But now people are coming along to console him because his feelings are hurt. In an article about injustices against women today, Jim has succeeded to turning the focus to him and his grievances as a man, with another man telling him he's done more for women than other women have ever done."
Well I screwed up because that wasn't what I was trying to communicate, I don't think anyone who can read believes women haven't suffered through history. The thing is I don't think you realize the irony of your last two paragraphs. Men, including myself, have lived life basically having our grievances off focus from us because it feels literally like our job description. You have done what you have just accused us of... and you do it quite frequently... when things don't go your way. It's actually a similarity men and women could have a discussion on. Women have their own versions of it too... OB/GYN and childbirth is full of really crappy doctors with an attitude of writing off women's concerns because "hormones'," "hysterical." And then anything involving rearing children with a family size more than 3 is your fault to the working managerial classes. There are many men who had bad fathers who taught them terribly like to completely delegate all child related issues and rearing to women and literally will stand their and watch a mother do all the work when he could easily assist, aid, or even lead. These father's teach similar to what women deal with earlier... man up, your feelings are irrelevant, but be more in touch with your feelings... but don't screw up...
I have a no sympathy for feminism because it creates and distorts what it claims to fight against... I have no sympathy for a movement that has spawned child murderers. A movement that will say it's women's rights, but encourages a man-child to continue being. So when I see Jim get a little terse, just like the ladies get. I feel for him, because I know the ladies got each other covered regardless of whether they are dead wrong.
But you're right, Jim probably shouldn't of did those things.
F* you, Jim. How dare you fall off your horse, better that you should of died before that happened.
Well, Dan, believe it or not, if we ever have a beer together, you'll find we'd disagree some, but actually agree on a lot.
I'm not sure how anything I said had brought about Lia Thomas swimming against women, but that's a whole load of worms that I think digress from the main points here. The crux of all the problems is as you said, "The problem seems to be we both piss on each other's grievances and have a dick measuring contest with it. Both become incensed and nothing changes." But where you and I might've diverged is that I see it mainly as two loud groups of people with a hold of the microphone. Somehow, they've made a career out of being the talking heads. But because they're the loudest and their voices are amplified by the media and those with platforms, they purport to represent everyone they claim to represent. My point about Jim is none of us should take any of it as an attack against us personally unless we are what these people accuse us of being. I'm not sympathetic when someone use ideological complaints as a reason to tell victims, "you're now on your own."
Look at it this way: Men have legitimate grievances today from all societal accusations and expectations, all as you described. It's unfair. It's unjust. So an individual man has had enough. Now a fourteen-year-old girl in your local swimming pool is changing and a full grown forty-year-old man who calls himself a woman walks in and he strips in front of her? Ha! Too bad! You're on your own. You asked for this!
How do you square with this?
I do support women's rights, but I'm not going to own the part that sprouted things like men should be man-child, etc. Just as "not all men", I never supported any of that. I don't even really know what they mean by "toxic masculinity". It's one of those terms where the definition seems obvious, when in fact everyone interprets it as they think what it means.
Same with "feminism". Just from the comments here, it's telling that people have different interpretations of what "feminism" is. But it doesn't matter. It's not even a movement anymore anyway. It hasn't been since 2000. Today it's a corporate brand, and a grift for professional activists, just like every other "movement" today.
We won't ever agree on the issue of abortion. But for whatever it's worth, I am very concerned with boys' needs being ignored. It is very disturbing to see no attention whatsoever paid to what positive roles and contributions men can bring to society. (And if we're to be real, it's not hard labor that a majority of men wouldn't want to do either.) I do think there should be a larger discussion about what it means to be a man today, with men talking to boys about that, including how men should properly behave and relate to women so we can minimize sexual assaults, domestic violence, job discriminations, etc. Instead of griping about feminists, why not put your time and effort into what's actually constructive?
TYTY. Couldn't agree more. That's just me.
You are right, I'm being nihilistic or black-pilled about it. Maybe the biggest evil between all this feminism, class war, race war, grievance war stuff is it's made it impossible for all of us to be a whole human family because of all the wounds created in trying to bring in our own utopia and meet expectations... it's made it impossible for us to not talk over and around each other, myself included. I would have that beer together with you as well.
C'mon, QX! I was gonna cut You a brand new arsehole for that first paragraph that has the "Hon" in it. Like You're showing how self-assured You are by throwing ad hominems? Goes for Joshua too (but thanks for the likes :). Yeah, that about the huts was over-the-top, but it wasn't an ad hominem against You was it? So what IS Your excuse.
Me? I'd ask You and Joshua to correct me if I'm wrong: I thought we were living in the third millennium, in the year 2022. What year are You describing?
And I would expect that this statement got a pass because both=a You have a prejudice against men. Yeah, may be hard to believe, but then there's this statement: "work done by a small selected group of commendable men."
Anyone wanna lower this conversation down to a matter of FACTUAL talk?
Hey jt, for whatever it's worth, I didn't realize you're still following this thread as you said above that you were moving on. To be clear my comment was meant to describe Dan and Kathy B.
I don't have a prejudice against men. And to be clear again, when I said " a small group of commendable men", it's not to say the number of men who did great things were small. It is to say that the percentage of men who did all those stuff listed by Jim is in fact small comparing to the overall population of men. Most men didn't invent squat. Most men right now are not out there logging, mining, or doing any form of hard labor. So for men today to raise these as proof of male superiority is not a good argument. That's the point I was making.
But I do commend men (and some women too) who do those kind of work for all of us. Let's face it, we'd all be screwed without them. So I say it's really just a small selected group of people--mostly men admittedly--with the physical strength and the willingness to take on those jobs. It's not really men per se taking on those jobs. Most men don't want to and are unwilling to as well.
I didn’t realise this thread was still going, my bad. Thanks to JT for admitting that the mud huts thing was over the top. For my part, I don’t have a prejudice against men; however, I was confused by the original airing-of-grievances diatribe that was focussed on putting down the potential of women in general.
FYI I’m on board with their being very clear, innate sex differences (on average), aside from the even more obvious physical differences. For example, males are on average more likely to want to “spread” their culture, which is why they tend dominate entrepreneurial areas (to unfairly summarise the argument, I think I got that from Jordan Peterson?).
Most importantly and fortunately, this whole thread is 1000x civil than on twitter haha
Okay. I'll retract SOME-a what I said. No, not all of it, but the part You dealt with.
But You identified another topic that doesn't precisely pertain but is a big problem.
Men, and women too, who work with their hands instead-a all the abstracts in the head are really looked down on by a LOTTA the college-educated. Actually, beneath notice. And don't get paid a fraction-a what the college-educated make, over a lifetime, right?
But, for a few years anyway, they make up TWO-THIRDS (2/3) of Americans. And, while they may not always be able to speak as eruditely as a lotta us, they intuitively know they're getting the shaft, big time, right?
All this arguing between men and women subtracts from Jim's point, if You reread it. People. Working together. To get by.
Backing off for a while again.
Naw. It's a war against women by *some* men. And face up to it, it's a war against women by a number of *females,* also, right?
There are indeed a lot of women in this world who see in misogyny a perfect weapon to take out their female competition. I'm convinced that a lot of the women who are supporting this men-in-women's-sports bullshit look at the girls who are competing and seethe with resentment because who do those bitches think they are getting medals and attention.
Its called “relational aggression”. Women do it all the time in the work place. Its grounded in how we are raised, culture and gender-based play theory.
We used to call it "horizontal hostility". So common in a group of women.
I am so glad I am.not a joiner.
I agree except I think it is grounded in character or the lack thereof. Some of those mean junior high girls never grow up.
Totally. Thats why the moniker for relational aggression is “mean girl syndrome”.
You may have the right of there, again, M. DarkWHite.
I looked up the ncaa Board of Governors. Made up of chancellors of universities. The far majority are male. Robert Gates is on it. That tells you everything. I don’t believe that representation must exactly match the people being governed but that sure speaks to academia and whats happening in it.