The "Counter Culture" failed. They never offered an alternative that worked. It was all more or less literal pipe dreams. They gave The Man the finger, then became the Man, but without any of the Man's moral compass or anchoring. They were the Man with better coffee and better croissants, a bad attitude, and a never ending sense of mild …
The "Counter Culture" failed. They never offered an alternative that worked. It was all more or less literal pipe dreams. They gave The Man the finger, then became the Man, but without any of the Man's moral compass or anchoring. They were the Man with better coffee and better croissants, a bad attitude, and a never ending sense of mild self loathing that very quietly admitted the failure without the courage to acknowledge and learn from it.
Why would a bunch of teenagers and twenty somethings REALLY be able to improve in a few short years in major ways on thousands of years of human experience and gathered knowledge?
Everything the Left has been doing for the past century has been dedicated to undermining and destroying traditional culture, but May Day and propagandistic BS don't really address the true emotional needs of individuals or societies.
For some time I've been using the image of the scene in Indiana Jones where he replaces a gold statue with a bag of something else, and it fails. He sets off all the defenses of the temple, because it was not a true exchange. We were asked to replace gold with brass, and in far too many cases did so, and are now wondering why we feel a sense of loss.
It is because of loss. We lost something. We gave something away without replacing it.
And I would make this comment. I don't know Ray Bradbury's politics, but in Fahrenheit 451 he was arguing for the value of human Culture as expressed in books. The Left, many of whom were at one time HONEST Liberals, agreed. The bookey people tended to be Democrats. But now those same people will burn, in effect, any book they are told to burn, and erase any author they are told to erase. Shakespeare is a dead white male, and most of them fail to read the greatest author, arguably, in the English language, EVEN IF THEY STUDY ENGLISH IN COLLEGE.
I have spent all my life studying problems of meaning and community, and could say much more, but will end with this. One thing that is VERY clear is WE NEED TO STOP DESTROYING THINGS AND INSTITUTIONS WHOSE VALUE WE DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND.
The Left needs to stop making things worse. No recovery will be possible where the only impulse is destruction, violence, and death.
The irony is that Bradbury is now regarded as "right wing", and you find "Farenheit 451" in any school anywhere. Nor will you find "1984", "Animal Farm", "Brave New World", etc.
No, they are much worse. The Taliban had and have positive stable beliefs, even if many of them are odious and their stance is that of radical intolerance.
The cult of Leftism has only two pillars: conformity to a constantly rotating story; and the destructive and sadistic use of power. It is unstable madness. Yes, it is all papered over by paper thin rhetoric, but they can be known by fruits, which are conflict, poverty for the many, intolerance, and unhappiness.
The two are not at all the same, are they? Godwin's Law is somewhat out of fashion, but it still remains profoundly lazy to use the IDEA of Hitler in inappropriate ways, I guess in an effort to make an apparently strong argument with weak ideas.
And to be clear, I'm not defending them. I am simply saying they have a stable belief structure, which Leftists do not; that that belief structure is held sincerely and unironically and that the words used correspond in reasonable ways to the things referred to; and that by and large their system works well for men, and as well as many other similar patriarchal systems for women, which is to say not well, but not as horrifically as might be feared from the outside.
I'll stop there. I should have stopped as soon as I realized how goofy you were, but as I often do I responded not to you, but the forum as a whole, in the no doubt fallacious belief someone might notice and care. That's my version of silliness.
Likewise. Kept myself busy helping mom transition to her second month of widowhood, which at 93 isn't easy for her. But she's doing all right considering. Love me some strong women like my mom . . . and, I think, you.
Oh Shane, I feel for you, and for her. She is blessed to have you. I have lost my Mom three years ago and then my Dad last year. He missed her so. They were married 66 years.
Thanks so much for this grace note, Lynne. When dad started getting seriously ill in 2022, I moved to Arizona from Illinois to spend whatever time he had left with him, mom, and the rest of the family. (They all live here; my late wife and I stayed in Chicago for work and her family.) We thought he'd only have a few months, and I wanted to see him as much as possible. He surprised all of us by living nine months--to his annoyance, he was ready to go!--and I had all the time in the world I wanted with him. Mom, too, but that continues to our mutual delight. My sisters and their families being here are a bonus for me.
Mine were married 68 years, so I know exactly the feeling they, and you, had about losing thei other half of themselves. My deepest condolences to you for their passing into that good night, but maybe they're playing cards with my dad and my wife. What's a Heaven for if not that, right?
Thank you so much for that. I do agree very much with your last sentiment. The best way I can describe it is now that they are both gone I feel untethered. So enjoy every moment with your mother. What you are doing for her is noble.
You're welcome, Lynne. I don't feel noble or anything, but dropping everything to move cross-country brought a peace I find so welcoming. I became a bit untethered when my wife died at 59, and being able to help my parents this way eight years later brought back the balance. The bonus is shoveling sunshine instead of snow :-)
I find most of what you’re saying to be very poignant, but I feel like you’re missing your own point by blaming one side for all the corruption. It’s everyone’s problem, as we’ve all played our parts creating it, albeit in differing, dichotomous ways. Our civilization has always existed in yin-yang, my friend.
It has. But at this point in time in our society one side has seized control and seeks to impose its idealigy on the other. The side being subjugated must either resist, which of necessity means acknowledging (blaming) the wrong-doers for their wrong-doing, or comply. This IS yin-yang in action. Kumbayaa has not worked.
Whether I agree or disagree with the things you have pointed out about the atrocities occurring on “the left”, someone could easily make the same argument about “the right” on the other side. If you truly can’t see that, and you truly believe your side is the righteous one; that there is no merit to any of the values espoused by “the left” (despite the multitude of obviously misguided actions undertaken) then it seems the logical conclusion of your argument is all but upon us: War in the streets so you can take your country back.
While both "sides" have issues (that's why there are sides) I think what we are witnessing now is far beyond that. I do not think a list of atrocities by the right can given. I listen for specifics and do not hear them with the exception of overreach about abortion. All I hear are name calling and hostility. We had a situation last week where Christians including three children were murdered and the Left, up to and including the President, was only concerned that there not be backlash against transvestites. The only Democrats willing to meet in the middle are viciously attacked by their side and several have left the party as a result thereof. I do not see any interest in discussion of the issues. Many Democrats (Joe Biden, Katie Hobbs, John Fetterman will not even debate). Discourse is simply not to be had.
Not in my personal life, not in the public sphere. Without the ability for meaningful discussion -between us as individuals and between our elected leadership - I see no resolution.
Are you saying you don’t think the right is seeking to impose its ideology on everyone too?
That’s literally the yin-yang battle that has been waging throughout the existence of human beings: Both “sides”, trying to impose their views upon one another, albeit by severely differing methodologies. The part that I’m amazes me about the back and forth is that people who are saying, “oh the left this”, or “oh the right that” don’t appear to realize, at least in modern society, that each “side” needs the other to to temper the extremes on both ends. That is how we made it to where we were ~20 years ago.
Then the perversities of the internet age came along, mucking everything up and creating these echo chambers and bad incentives that have made it so we don’t feel like complete fools continually calling each other names and waiting for problems to solve themselves. You could call it corruption of our primitive programming.
No I do not think it is the right that is trying to impose its idealogy. It is the Left. Redefinition of gender. Diminishment of parental rights. Imposition of ill-conceived and ill-advised green policies which weaken both the nation and the individual. Likewise ill-advised and ill-conceived monetary policy. A $32,000,000,000,000 national debt and a President who refuses to contemplate spending cuts and who has implemented policies which have greatly increased the interest to be paid on said debt. A President who refers to all who do not agree with him as "Ultra MAGA" and worse. The weaponization of various executive agencies to ferrett out trifling at best and fictional at worse wrong-doing by those on the right while turning a blind eye to blatant misconduct, some of it quite egregious, of Democrats. Collusion of those agencies with legacy and social media outlets to censor speech and the free flow of ideas, and deliver mis- dis- and mal-information while professing to combat same and the associated election interference as a result thereof. Imposition of mandates to require the purchase of health insurance from 3rd party, for profit entities by every human who draws breath and thereby replacing health care with health business. Allowing spies and spy devices free access to the nation. Calling for those who speak out or question any of this to be boycotted, fired, disciplined or otherwise cancelled. Physically assaulting a female swimmer invited to a college campus to speak about the reality of competition with males. Shouting down a federal judge invited to a college campus to speak. There are far too many instances of these last two examples to list. I could go on, and on, and on with example after example after example which is what leads me to believe that dialogue with Leftists, which includes the vast majority of Democrats, is pointless as it is something they are not interested in, because they are intent on imposing their besotted will on everyone. By any means. It is vile.
I was thinking everything you just said. I am a health coach and I watched as every scientist, doctor or health coach I followed get censored by the Left, even when they were talking about facts that have been agreed upon for years. Many of my friends were so mean - I did not recognize them. And I am married to a police officer... All the people who posted police videos do not really care about the people who died, and are still dying, from the lack of police presence. I get so tired of everyone saying - well the Right... Where is the Right "winning"?
Oh my goodness girl you have truly hit the demonized by the left trifecta - a Christian health worker married to a law enforcement officer. And we are all expected to surrender our intelligence to exist in our society.
Your comment made me laugh out loud! I am engineer by trade, so I also find logical talking points. When I first became a Christian (I was Catholic before and always loved God), I read every scientist who became a Christian BECAUSE of science. I read Stephen C. Meyer and Dr. James Tour. At some point all scientists don't have the answer. Instead of saying they also have to depend of faith, they will say "We haven't discovered the answer, yet". And then they may call you a name.
I have never seen the conflict between science and religion. I am a lawyer by trade so often find that conflicting POV can be reconciled. It may be odd but I take comfort in the fact that there is much yet to be learned and understood.
Within the realm of emotional health many diverging viewpoints are possible. But emotional wellness and madness are two differing things. To give up EVERYTHING for NOTHING is lunacy.
The points you make about the behavior on “the left” are abundantly evident and equally abhorrent. You have no disagreement here regarding the lunacy occurring on “the left”.
Something that has been on my mind for months is how there needs to be new terminology for the woken left, perhaps “neo-left” or “neo-leftist”, so once those who’ve been corrupted by these viewpoints realize how broken they are, they’ll have a left to walk back to. The left and the right, grievances aside, have to stop working to destroy each other if we are to have a civilization, and railing against one side as the cause gets us nowhere but exactly where we are right now, because the only thing that gets heard when you make an argument in this way is that “the left is bad,” which makes people on that side mad and and people on the right feel affirmed in their own “righteousness”. Meanwhile, we’ve lost the point of the argument. Welcome to nowhere.
I call anyone capable of having an intelligent, principle based conversation a Liberal. Being a Liberal is good. But as I use the words Leftists BY DEFINITION are not Liberals, and you will never hear me call them that. They have no interest in dialogue, debate, or learning. They are witch hunters and book burners, without the redeeming features of some positive belief.
Are leftists not the people you’re actually describing when you are speaking in your posts about “the left”? What’s wrong with calling a spade a spade and referring to them as “leftist” rather than lumping classical liberals who fall left of center into the junk pile, which is what everyone seems to do when they talk about “the left”. My point is perhaps that would fan less flames that are only complicating our society’s dumpster fire of a mess.
Bari Weiss first got my attention by making the same distinction. We can debate policy, but its not possible to debate people screaming “NO DEBATE” and backing it up with threats of physical violence and immediate social violence as bad as they can inflict.
Put another way, I want the 1980 Alan Alda back, not what we have today. Even Norman Lear and Meathead have lost their minds.
Liberals on the left are few, but by definition, in my terms, they are open to debate, and must understand clearly exactly what I am talking about.
And I am a conservative but call myself Liberal. Not all conservatives are liberal either, but if you want to have polite disagreement, that is by far the likeliest place to find it.
I don’t like mobs. The Left as I define it consists in nothing but managed mobs.
I will add that when we replace the wisdom of a Shakespeare with a blind and indoctrinated hatred of "whiteness" what has anyone gained? Everyone is stupider, angrier, and not comforted by anything but violence and aggression and dictatorial control of largely innocent people.
The "Counter Culture" failed. They never offered an alternative that worked. It was all more or less literal pipe dreams. They gave The Man the finger, then became the Man, but without any of the Man's moral compass or anchoring. They were the Man with better coffee and better croissants, a bad attitude, and a never ending sense of mild self loathing that very quietly admitted the failure without the courage to acknowledge and learn from it.
Why would a bunch of teenagers and twenty somethings REALLY be able to improve in a few short years in major ways on thousands of years of human experience and gathered knowledge?
Everything the Left has been doing for the past century has been dedicated to undermining and destroying traditional culture, but May Day and propagandistic BS don't really address the true emotional needs of individuals or societies.
For some time I've been using the image of the scene in Indiana Jones where he replaces a gold statue with a bag of something else, and it fails. He sets off all the defenses of the temple, because it was not a true exchange. We were asked to replace gold with brass, and in far too many cases did so, and are now wondering why we feel a sense of loss.
It is because of loss. We lost something. We gave something away without replacing it.
And I would make this comment. I don't know Ray Bradbury's politics, but in Fahrenheit 451 he was arguing for the value of human Culture as expressed in books. The Left, many of whom were at one time HONEST Liberals, agreed. The bookey people tended to be Democrats. But now those same people will burn, in effect, any book they are told to burn, and erase any author they are told to erase. Shakespeare is a dead white male, and most of them fail to read the greatest author, arguably, in the English language, EVEN IF THEY STUDY ENGLISH IN COLLEGE.
I have spent all my life studying problems of meaning and community, and could say much more, but will end with this. One thing that is VERY clear is WE NEED TO STOP DESTROYING THINGS AND INSTITUTIONS WHOSE VALUE WE DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND.
The Left needs to stop making things worse. No recovery will be possible where the only impulse is destruction, violence, and death.
The irony is that Bradbury is now regarded as "right wing", and you find "Farenheit 451" in any school anywhere. Nor will you find "1984", "Animal Farm", "Brave New World", etc.
The Left are nothing more than the Taliban who blew up the ancient Buddha statues. Vile, destructive and stupid.
No, they are much worse. The Taliban had and have positive stable beliefs, even if many of them are odious and their stance is that of radical intolerance.
The cult of Leftism has only two pillars: conformity to a constantly rotating story; and the destructive and sadistic use of power. It is unstable madness. Yes, it is all papered over by paper thin rhetoric, but they can be known by fruits, which are conflict, poverty for the many, intolerance, and unhappiness.
"The Taliban had and have positive stable beliefs . . ."
Oh, hell, no. Unless you believe Hitler had his faults, but hey, he painted halfway decent landscapes.
The two are not at all the same, are they? Godwin's Law is somewhat out of fashion, but it still remains profoundly lazy to use the IDEA of Hitler in inappropriate ways, I guess in an effort to make an apparently strong argument with weak ideas.
If you think the Taliban have ANY positive stable beliefs, your ideas are far weaker than anything you claim about mine.
Do you want to argue no Muslims have any positive beliefs?
Not me, Bubba. Islam has many positive beliefs. The Taliban do not.
How much exactly do you know about the Taliban?
And to be clear, I'm not defending them. I am simply saying they have a stable belief structure, which Leftists do not; that that belief structure is held sincerely and unironically and that the words used correspond in reasonable ways to the things referred to; and that by and large their system works well for men, and as well as many other similar patriarchal systems for women, which is to say not well, but not as horrifically as might be feared from the outside.
I'll stop there. I should have stopped as soon as I realized how goofy you were, but as I often do I responded not to you, but the forum as a whole, in the no doubt fallacious belief someone might notice and care. That's my version of silliness.
"How much exactly do you know about the Taliban?"
More than you, it would appear. But I'm sure the rest of the forum appreciates your fine Helperliness.
And what does your rant about communism have to do with anything? Taliban are Islamic psychopaths, not communists.
I'm not going to explain it you.
Thank god for small favors.
Very well put.
Thanks, Lynne. I hope you're having a delightful Easter!
Very peaceful. How is your Passover?
Likewise. Kept myself busy helping mom transition to her second month of widowhood, which at 93 isn't easy for her. But she's doing all right considering. Love me some strong women like my mom . . . and, I think, you.
Oh Shane, I feel for you, and for her. She is blessed to have you. I have lost my Mom three years ago and then my Dad last year. He missed her so. They were married 66 years.
Thanks so much for this grace note, Lynne. When dad started getting seriously ill in 2022, I moved to Arizona from Illinois to spend whatever time he had left with him, mom, and the rest of the family. (They all live here; my late wife and I stayed in Chicago for work and her family.) We thought he'd only have a few months, and I wanted to see him as much as possible. He surprised all of us by living nine months--to his annoyance, he was ready to go!--and I had all the time in the world I wanted with him. Mom, too, but that continues to our mutual delight. My sisters and their families being here are a bonus for me.
Mine were married 68 years, so I know exactly the feeling they, and you, had about losing thei other half of themselves. My deepest condolences to you for their passing into that good night, but maybe they're playing cards with my dad and my wife. What's a Heaven for if not that, right?
Thank you so much for that. I do agree very much with your last sentiment. The best way I can describe it is now that they are both gone I feel untethered. So enjoy every moment with your mother. What you are doing for her is noble.
You're welcome, Lynne. I don't feel noble or anything, but dropping everything to move cross-country brought a peace I find so welcoming. I became a bit untethered when my wife died at 59, and being able to help my parents this way eight years later brought back the balance. The bonus is shoveling sunshine instead of snow :-)
Perhaps Chesterson’s fence should be taught in schools instead of the gender unicorn.
The Marxist takeover of education is currently the greatest threat to America and it is well underway. It will take more than a generation to reverse.
"Well underway"? In the public schools it has been COMPLETED!
I find most of what you’re saying to be very poignant, but I feel like you’re missing your own point by blaming one side for all the corruption. It’s everyone’s problem, as we’ve all played our parts creating it, albeit in differing, dichotomous ways. Our civilization has always existed in yin-yang, my friend.
It has. But at this point in time in our society one side has seized control and seeks to impose its idealigy on the other. The side being subjugated must either resist, which of necessity means acknowledging (blaming) the wrong-doers for their wrong-doing, or comply. This IS yin-yang in action. Kumbayaa has not worked.
Whether I agree or disagree with the things you have pointed out about the atrocities occurring on “the left”, someone could easily make the same argument about “the right” on the other side. If you truly can’t see that, and you truly believe your side is the righteous one; that there is no merit to any of the values espoused by “the left” (despite the multitude of obviously misguided actions undertaken) then it seems the logical conclusion of your argument is all but upon us: War in the streets so you can take your country back.
Am I wrong?
While both "sides" have issues (that's why there are sides) I think what we are witnessing now is far beyond that. I do not think a list of atrocities by the right can given. I listen for specifics and do not hear them with the exception of overreach about abortion. All I hear are name calling and hostility. We had a situation last week where Christians including three children were murdered and the Left, up to and including the President, was only concerned that there not be backlash against transvestites. The only Democrats willing to meet in the middle are viciously attacked by their side and several have left the party as a result thereof. I do not see any interest in discussion of the issues. Many Democrats (Joe Biden, Katie Hobbs, John Fetterman will not even debate). Discourse is simply not to be had.
Not in my personal life, not in the public sphere. Without the ability for meaningful discussion -between us as individuals and between our elected leadership - I see no resolution.
Are you saying you don’t think the right is seeking to impose its ideology on everyone too?
That’s literally the yin-yang battle that has been waging throughout the existence of human beings: Both “sides”, trying to impose their views upon one another, albeit by severely differing methodologies. The part that I’m amazes me about the back and forth is that people who are saying, “oh the left this”, or “oh the right that” don’t appear to realize, at least in modern society, that each “side” needs the other to to temper the extremes on both ends. That is how we made it to where we were ~20 years ago.
Then the perversities of the internet age came along, mucking everything up and creating these echo chambers and bad incentives that have made it so we don’t feel like complete fools continually calling each other names and waiting for problems to solve themselves. You could call it corruption of our primitive programming.
No I do not think it is the right that is trying to impose its idealogy. It is the Left. Redefinition of gender. Diminishment of parental rights. Imposition of ill-conceived and ill-advised green policies which weaken both the nation and the individual. Likewise ill-advised and ill-conceived monetary policy. A $32,000,000,000,000 national debt and a President who refuses to contemplate spending cuts and who has implemented policies which have greatly increased the interest to be paid on said debt. A President who refers to all who do not agree with him as "Ultra MAGA" and worse. The weaponization of various executive agencies to ferrett out trifling at best and fictional at worse wrong-doing by those on the right while turning a blind eye to blatant misconduct, some of it quite egregious, of Democrats. Collusion of those agencies with legacy and social media outlets to censor speech and the free flow of ideas, and deliver mis- dis- and mal-information while professing to combat same and the associated election interference as a result thereof. Imposition of mandates to require the purchase of health insurance from 3rd party, for profit entities by every human who draws breath and thereby replacing health care with health business. Allowing spies and spy devices free access to the nation. Calling for those who speak out or question any of this to be boycotted, fired, disciplined or otherwise cancelled. Physically assaulting a female swimmer invited to a college campus to speak about the reality of competition with males. Shouting down a federal judge invited to a college campus to speak. There are far too many instances of these last two examples to list. I could go on, and on, and on with example after example after example which is what leads me to believe that dialogue with Leftists, which includes the vast majority of Democrats, is pointless as it is something they are not interested in, because they are intent on imposing their besotted will on everyone. By any means. It is vile.
I was thinking everything you just said. I am a health coach and I watched as every scientist, doctor or health coach I followed get censored by the Left, even when they were talking about facts that have been agreed upon for years. Many of my friends were so mean - I did not recognize them. And I am married to a police officer... All the people who posted police videos do not really care about the people who died, and are still dying, from the lack of police presence. I get so tired of everyone saying - well the Right... Where is the Right "winning"?
Oh my goodness girl you have truly hit the demonized by the left trifecta - a Christian health worker married to a law enforcement officer. And we are all expected to surrender our intelligence to exist in our society.
Your comment made me laugh out loud! I am engineer by trade, so I also find logical talking points. When I first became a Christian (I was Catholic before and always loved God), I read every scientist who became a Christian BECAUSE of science. I read Stephen C. Meyer and Dr. James Tour. At some point all scientists don't have the answer. Instead of saying they also have to depend of faith, they will say "We haven't discovered the answer, yet". And then they may call you a name.
I have never seen the conflict between science and religion. I am a lawyer by trade so often find that conflicting POV can be reconciled. It may be odd but I take comfort in the fact that there is much yet to be learned and understood.
Within the realm of emotional health many diverging viewpoints are possible. But emotional wellness and madness are two differing things. To give up EVERYTHING for NOTHING is lunacy.
The points you make about the behavior on “the left” are abundantly evident and equally abhorrent. You have no disagreement here regarding the lunacy occurring on “the left”.
Something that has been on my mind for months is how there needs to be new terminology for the woken left, perhaps “neo-left” or “neo-leftist”, so once those who’ve been corrupted by these viewpoints realize how broken they are, they’ll have a left to walk back to. The left and the right, grievances aside, have to stop working to destroy each other if we are to have a civilization, and railing against one side as the cause gets us nowhere but exactly where we are right now, because the only thing that gets heard when you make an argument in this way is that “the left is bad,” which makes people on that side mad and and people on the right feel affirmed in their own “righteousness”. Meanwhile, we’ve lost the point of the argument. Welcome to nowhere.
I call anyone capable of having an intelligent, principle based conversation a Liberal. Being a Liberal is good. But as I use the words Leftists BY DEFINITION are not Liberals, and you will never hear me call them that. They have no interest in dialogue, debate, or learning. They are witch hunters and book burners, without the redeeming features of some positive belief.
Are leftists not the people you’re actually describing when you are speaking in your posts about “the left”? What’s wrong with calling a spade a spade and referring to them as “leftist” rather than lumping classical liberals who fall left of center into the junk pile, which is what everyone seems to do when they talk about “the left”. My point is perhaps that would fan less flames that are only complicating our society’s dumpster fire of a mess.
The distinction is between sane and insane.
Bari Weiss first got my attention by making the same distinction. We can debate policy, but its not possible to debate people screaming “NO DEBATE” and backing it up with threats of physical violence and immediate social violence as bad as they can inflict.
Put another way, I want the 1980 Alan Alda back, not what we have today. Even Norman Lear and Meathead have lost their minds.
Liberals on the left are few, but by definition, in my terms, they are open to debate, and must understand clearly exactly what I am talking about.
And I am a conservative but call myself Liberal. Not all conservatives are liberal either, but if you want to have polite disagreement, that is by far the likeliest place to find it.
I don’t like mobs. The Left as I define it consists in nothing but managed mobs.
I will add that when we replace the wisdom of a Shakespeare with a blind and indoctrinated hatred of "whiteness" what has anyone gained? Everyone is stupider, angrier, and not comforted by anything but violence and aggression and dictatorial control of largely innocent people.