Interesting to see an old argument against humanism resurface. When we killed God, we replaced him with ourselves, resulting in pathological self-absorption and the worship of ourselves. Now, the good thing about the Christian God is that death is no great barrier, as he’s prone to resurrection.
Interesting to see an old argument against humanism resurface. When we killed God, we replaced him with ourselves, resulting in pathological self-absorption and the worship of ourselves. Now, the good thing about the Christian God is that death is no great barrier, as he’s prone to resurrection.
When we killed God and replaced him with ourselves, as you say, the family was a casualty of that effort. Family is where we first learn how to love, sacrifice, be disciplined, and be generous in spirit, all of those things that are good. Without emphasizing the family as a rock-solid support system, founded on objective truth, we set ourselves up to fail at a societal level. I think the author points to an aching to return to God, family, and objectivity... an ache that's only growing.
I might be a humanist, maybe even an atheist. These labels don’t carry much value and their definitions are blurry. The form of humanism that I carry is not at odds with a belief in something greater than ourselves.
I believe that God is a creation of the marvelous human mind that presents itself in every culture around the world throughout history. The structure of religion gives us a language to describe that which is greater than ourselves.
I believe that Christianity is not factually accurate. I was not raised with its concepts presented as truths and therefore my analytical and evidence-seeking mind developed before my faith in miracles could take root. Yet I see the value in and am struck with awe at the concepts of a virgin birth, stone tablets containing the rules for life, healing the sick when all hope was lost as Jesus did in the streets, feeding the hungry by multiplying fish, life after death, and accepting and forgiving humanity and myself for all our brokenness.
I believe that there is something greater than ourselves. In fact, this is an inescapable reality that one needs only to slow down and notice. The world happens around us regardless of our intentions. Plants grow, Earth turns, water runs, people live and die, and my thoughts tumble forth from some place I cannot see.
I believe that purpose in life is crucially important and that I struggle to know what mine is. Raising good children is a purpose in my life that is largely fulfilled. There are so many problems and so much need in this world, it is difficult to know where to apply oneself. I want to give homes to the homeless, peace to the addicts, food to the hungry, and protection to all the sentient creatures and their natural environment. I want to continue experiencing the richness of the world with my family and beloved friends. Here I rest in the higher power to grant me the wisdom to recognize opportunities for courage to act on those opportunities to achieve my purpose.
I appreciate the Free Press comment section because it literally pops my bubble. I agree with some of what I see posted here. I chuckle instead of becoming offended at posts where democrats/liberals are generally cast as stupid, reckless and godless. Since I was granted the privilege to vote I have voted for democratic US presidents and have vehemently defended the party platform to anyone who would discuss it. No longer. In 2024 I may write in Nellie Bowles. Today I find myself confused about what the two parties in our system actually stand for; I’m aghast at both sides. The FP and its subscribers are so much closer to the truth of the important matters at hand than any of the cast of characters on the reality show of politics that is presented to the people by the media powerhouses of the 21st century.
Thanks for reading. Happy Easter everyone.
PS I initially posted this comment as a top level thread, but it gets buried by the default "top first" sort. So, posting as a response to this thoughtful thread so that some eyes will see it.
I agree. I was raised Catholic but I am not sure if I believe in a "God" up in "Heaven" but I do believe there is an immense power that the human mind cannot comprehend. I believe that all religions and their respective God is an attempt to understand that power. I do see the value in some religions teaching values such as in The Ten Commandments. Not a bad set of rules to live by. However, the extremes of religious zealots really disturbs me and unfortunately causes so many problems in the world. I prefer not to practice any organized religion but live my life with kindness, gratitude, compassion and giving in whatever way I can. I do believe having a purpose is important no matter what it is as long as one is not hurting others. Narcissism, being selfish and self centered not included.
At an age when most normal people would be six feet under, I hobble along , cane in hand, in my expat community trying to find some 'Purpose" other than another marguerita to keep me going. the only one I have come up with - and trust me, this one is not easy,-- is to speak up when
I hear the vicious remarks about the Orange Man or the people who support him . I have kept my own council for years fearing that I would lose friends I cannot afford to lose. But now, I figure most of my friends are in nursig homes or "sleeping with their ancestors" as they way and with it is hard to make friends anyway when you in are in your mid-80's so just bite the bullet. Suprisingly, when I have, another fearful soul will speak up and say "thank you for saying that"
Bless you Dorothy. I too am an expat, further south in Panama. My heart breaks for the USA but I'll never go back. I'm trying to mentally divorce myself. Sanity exists and rules here. It certainly does not in the states.
Dorothy, I would be more inclined to join you in insisting we chill out on "Orange Man" jibes if (a) Trump didn't insult non-supporters on a regular basis, and (b) MAGA supporters did not routinely rip "addled nursing home escapee diaper-wearing drooling pervert Slow Biden" the same way. I wish we'd all dial back the rhetoric, America needs to calm down.
"Sleeping with their ancestors" is the best thing I've read today, thanks.
So your purpose is to live in an expat community drinking and socializing with other Americans with TDS? Come on back to the USA and volunteer to read to kindergartners. Now that’s a purpose.
Thank you for your advice to move back to the US of a and read to kindergartners. However I am pretty old maybe too old to move again plus I am what we call an economic refugee, I don't drink, and I do read to kindergartners although they are Mexican children. So I thank you for giving me the advice you give and I hope you have a great weekend
> When we killed God, we replaced him with ourselves
For some that's true, but then a new religion surfaced: Wokeness. Again, there was something to Believe in: Social Justice. It's quite notable how the new religion maps over the old one, just the names have changed, for example we still have Original Sin, but now we call it Whiteness. Whereas the Children of Israel were formerly held in bondage by Pharaoh, now The Victims are held in bondage by White Privilege. Moses, however, is a composite: Kendi, DiAngelo, Sharpton, etc. all offer to lead God's Children to Transition. For a reasonable price. We still have Confession, but it's called the Struggle Session.
It's a form of Gnosticism. Its believers see themselves as the Elect, possessors of knowledge that no other humans can comprehend. Thus, they see themselves as superior beings, and therefore entitled to rule. Others are sub-human to the Elect; the common man is a burden, and deserves no better treatment than farm animals -- possibly worse.
I like the comparison. Certainly when some kid decides he Knows that he's really a girl, he is accessing Hidden Knowledge. In about the same way the Lived Experience that the Victims have is a form of Hidden Knowledge that whitey can't hope to understand but must accede to. Indeed the Victims are the Elect because their claims cannot be challenged and suffering -- how the Victims have suffered! -- is proof of persecution thus proof of saintliness. Indigenous Ways Of Knowing are also Gnostic.
I think that is true. I'm not sure that I believe in the conventional God, but I do believe that Christ lived and that his message was misconstrued by his disciples, as recorded in the New Testament, that "God" resided in a physical Heaven and that Christ was the only son of God. I believe his message is that each one of us has God within us, that you are also a child of God, but that we must each dig within ourselves to find God and the holy spirit that binds each of us to the other. Without this self-knowledge and without the understanding that the only way to find happiness in life is to work to make others happy, one's life will be empty and meaningless, leading to a form of atheism that is truly nothing more than self-worship.
"I believe his message is that each one of us has God within us, that you are also a child of God, but that we must each dig within ourselves to find God and the holy spirit that binds each of us to the other."
But this is part of the message of Christianity! The Orthodox call it "Theosis"; Catholics call it "Sanctification." Through belief in Jesus we come to the sacraments, which give us a real, physical and spiritual participation in his life, the life of God, which makes us children of God and, if we allow it, transforms us from within into participation in the Divinity Itself.
In Christianity, we do have "God within us" - THE God, a personal God, who made heaven and earth. And the bond we have between each other is The Church.
I think though, that there are two reasons why people (especially Americans) fail to find this in Christianity:
1) The predominant form of Christianity in America is Protestantism, and the fundamental basis of Protestantism is a rejection of a) infused, transformative grace that leads to genuine theosis / sanctification in favor of imputed justification ( aka "Just accept Jesus and you are saved" ) and b) a rejection of the institutional structures the provide unity and sacramental life.
(I don't mean to be offensive to Protestants; I grew up a confessional Lutheran and, even twenty + years since my conversion to Catholicism in college, I have a lot of sentimental affection for that tradition. But Luther really threw the baby out with the bathwater when it came to the nature of grace and the importance of the Church.)
2) While the idea of an divine aspect in my inner soul is attractive to most people, a transformative relationship with a *personal* God, a God who is a *someone* rather than just a vague inner spirituality or goodness, is hard for people because it demands a relationship, and that relationship, like all relationships, demands that we transform ourselves in ways that might be challenging to us in order to grow into that relationship. It's one thing to be vaguely "spiritual" - it's another to believe in a personal, indwelling God that wants to *transform* us with concrete demands and principles about what a transformed life in relationship with Him looks like.
I think a lot of modern people are afraid of that kind of personal relationship with the Divinity for the same reason they flinch at relationships like marriage and parenthood - the level of commitment and demands to conform my will to one outside my own can be terrifying.
Hi Jeff, I would ask you to consider if we have to dig to find God within ourselves, does that not make God a person created in our image? If He is created in our image, would this god, of our creation, be able to guide us, succor us in our troubles, or redeem us from our sins, or save us from death? I would posit to you the answer is, no. I would go further and say only in Jesus will one find meaning and purpose in life that transcends circumstances and removes our fear of death and lack of meaning.
"only in Jesus will one find meaning and purpose in life that transcends circumstances and removes our fear of death and lack of meaning."
Only? That's not remotely true. Billions of people worldwide lives lives of meaning, purpose, and comfort without Jesus. I'm one of them. I'm genuinely happy that Jesus works well for you, but not everyone is a Christian.
Thank you for your courtesy, Shane. You're right not everyone is a Christian, and they find hope and consolation in their self-designed lives. But at one point or another self-designed doesn't work and they need someone more, Jesus steps in when they ask and makes all the difference.
You're very welcome, Cynthia, and to you in return. I have no issue with people seeking Jesus, because we all need to believe in something bigger than ourselves to make our spin on this planet a good and moral ride. Embracing Jesus is a far better way to cure what ails you than liquor, meth, and other escapes. My only point was that this has to be voluntary, not imposed on those who seek other ways, whether that be other religions, service to humanity, or keeping Nature alive and well. God works through many channels. Happy Easter to you.
Thank you. Great comment. What we lost when mankind decided it no longer needed God was the idea of ourselves as fallen sinners needing God’s forgiveness and redemption. Think of all the attempts in recent history when mankind acted as though it could be its own God---they have all ended in catastrophe. Yet we don’t learn.
A belief in God comes with restraint on our evil urges. To quote Dostoyevsky, “When there is no God, all is permissible.” Right, and chaos follows. We don’t even acknowledge evil exists anymore.
On this Holy Saturday before the “Superbowl of Christianity”, Resurrection Day, I am going out on a limb here and suggesting to readers to find a church and refind God in your lives. Open yourselves up the his love and forgiveness. Find something bigger than yourself to believe in. It will be a refuge in a world-gone-mad.
I won’t debate the false choice of needing god to bring purpose to one’s life. Instead your point about mankind abandoning god. How about the other way around--god abandoning mankind. A serious a analysis of our history suggests this is the case. All the great miracles believers stake their belief in god somehow ended with the alleged resurrection. A belieber now carries that heavy burden to justify their existence. There are better ways. How about saying hi to your neighbor and taking a keen interest in listening to them talk about their life.
David, I agree that one doesn't need God to live a moral and purposeful life. (I believe in God, but the purposeful life I have is independent of that.) But those who do need God, like NCmaureen, don't need to justify their existence. Belief and non-belief require no justification to anyone.
This is just secondary to the issue under discussion.
The author of _Bowling Alone_ (referenced in the article) is also famous for conducting studies that showed that increased diversity led to decreased levels of social cohesiveness. At the individual level human beings are free to find purpose however they want (or not).
But at the aggregate level the abandonment of religion is leading to a more fractured and polarized society with plummeting levels of social trust. Given that why should anyone be surprised that rates of violent crime are sky rocketing?
That we are no longer forced to pledge allegiance to X or be voted off the island is a social good, not social ill. The culturally enforced straightjacket of "men rule, women submit, Christ is King, no blacks, Jews, or Irish need apply, the only good Injun is a dead Injun, and I'm bored, Earl, let's do us some queer-bashing, is best left in the rear-view mirror. Social cohesiveness at the point of a gun is not cohesiveness, it's prison with a nicer name. Women can even get credit cards without their husbands' permission these days! Sure, this freedom makes society a little more unruly than The Good Old Days, but's it a worthy tradeoff.
I hardly think violent crime is skyrocketing because Americans are walking away from Christianity. The U.S. violent crime rate has been plummeting since the Nineties, the same time period The Great Abandonment is occurring.
Your information about violent crime rates is completely incorrect. If you look at the homicide rate for the US it peaked in 1992 and has been falling ever since--until about five years ago when the rate started increasing again. In 2020 of course after the pandemic the national homicide rate saw its greatest year on year increase in modern recorded history (and quite possibly the largest such increase ever for the United States).
Plus homicide rates differ significantly by racial group. The rates for whites and Hispanics right now are relatively high but the rate for poor blacks is higher now than it was in 1992, meaning that it's the highest it's ever been in modern recorded history.
Do crime rates correlate with a lack of social cohesion? There is research that seems to indicate that they do. The problem is that as religion declines nothing is replacing it in terms of social glue and the country is fragmenting into multiple mutually hostile warring tribes. For example, racial tensions between blacks and Asian Americans right now are probably the worst they've been since the Rodney King riots.
My information is correct, Slaw, at least in the broad strokes: compared to the mid-1990s, the violent crime rate in the United States has dropped by half. I agree it's kicked up in the last five years, mostly due to Covid stress, but that doesn't mean we're back to the crack-fueled Crime Nineties. My source for the numbers if you're interested:
"The problem is that as religion declines nothing is replacing it in terms of social glue and the country is fragmenting into multiple mutually hostile warring tribes."
This observation I agree with 100 percent. It's not that I mind our national retreat from the thumb of Christianity; that was long overdue. The failure to replace that common glue with something else is indeed turning us into little warring tribes. Racial tensions are serious: antisemitism is exploding, and as you note, the tension between Black and Asian Americans is thick. White hostility toward Asians is open and raw. Politicians and social media fan the flames and splash the gasoline because they make money and win re-election through rage.
The gold standard for reporting on violent crimes is homicide rates. Why? Because as police departments and response times degrade some percentage of violent crimes simply go unreported. On the other hand it is very difficult to hide a body.
So what do homicide rates tell us? The national homicide rate is back up to around where it was in 1996--not a good thing for a country that saw a steady decline in that rate from 1992 to about 2014. Saying that homicides now are not as bad as they were in the '90's is misleading--they are as bad as 1996 and significantly worse than 1998 or 1999.
And again, what happens if you break down rates by racial demographic? Rates for poor blacks are higher now than at any time in modern history--and that obviously includes the 1990's.
As for my second point I think there are many factors behind the explosion in tribalism. But surely one has to be the obsession with race on the left. For years whites have grouped the country into white people and everybody else. No Asian person would look at the black population and feel any special sense of kinship and indeed historically the evidence is that there is usually a substantial amount of friction between racial minorities in the United States.
Whites though understandably are usually ignorant of these racial dynamics and that has led them to conclude that a coalition of liberal whites plus racial minorities is a winning combination. Of course the reality is that once everyone sorts themselves into separate tribes the consequence is tribal conflict: Asians versus blacks versus Hispanics versus whites and so on. It is a recipe for national disunity.
One more thing: the period from 1960 to 1992 saw rising homicide rates. From 1992 to 2014 rates declined. That is roughly a 30 year cycle. If one assumes periodic increases and decreases in homicide rates the US is in for another 10-20 years, at least, of rising crime.
Thank you for sharing this. I’ve come to learn that the need to justify my existence is pointless when I no longer view life as journey that demands purpose. Just enjoy your life and the beauty it holds and allow that to inspire you to increase the well being of society. If you need to channel this endeavor through a religious practice, go for it. Just know that religion isn’t a prerequisite to live a meaningful life.
"religion isn’t a prerequisite to live a meaningful life."
Well said, David. Religion is one of many ways to live a meaningful life, but only one. If religion is embraced voluntarily and not imposed on the unwilling, more power to those who drive that path. I take the scenic route instead :-)
Your arrogance is stunning. "False choice" "God abandoning mankind" "a believer carries the burden to justify their existence". You are simply foisting your doubt onto every one else. You are who Ms. Boyle's is describing in the article.
Stunning? How is his view more arrogant than "On this Holy Saturday before the “Superbowl of Christianity,” Resurrection Day, I am going out on a limb here and suggesting to readers to find a church and re-find God in your lives. Open yourselves up the his love and forgiveness"?
I'm not knocking God; I'm a believer, Jewish edition. But believing that someone needs church and God's "love and forgiveness" to have a purpose in life, or to act nobly and morally, is just as arrogant as thinking religion is hooey.
If you do not understand the difference in the condemnation of the language I quoted and the nicely worded suggestion you quoted I cannot explain it to you.
I understand the difference. I simply don't agree that his view is arrogant, let alone stunningly so.
NCmaureen needs God in her life to provide purpose. David does not. Both views are valid and neither is arrogant. Why did you condemn one as arrogant but not the other?
I do not proselytize. I have been free to choose my path and that is all I wish for others. But to say what the poster you are defending said is the opposite of that. Proselytizing for the position of no faith. In a very insulting, no holds barred, hence arrogant, fashion. That is vastly different than suggesting out of kindness to someone lamenting their circumstances that maybe they should reach out to God. IOW I do not object to the idea of no faith but rather to the insulting nature of the rhetoric.
Lynn, I also enjoy your comments. I am a Christian and believe because of so much evidence, and I've seen so many people turn their lives around turning to Jesus. I agree with you, it is the tone of non-believers. Or people on the Left. If someone does good and their motivation is their belief in God, what does it matter to non-believers? If someone does good and they don't believe in God - good for them! But don't take away the chance for someone who is hurting to turn to God because the world mocks that choice.
Exactly. Thank you for that Linda. Plus while believers operate on faith that their belief is correct non-believers are too often oblivious to the fact that they likewise operate on faith. Their's is just faith that we are wrong.
I agree. My view, and just mine, is that God is a human construct that people find comforting and decide to believe in. The invention of creation myths, deities, rituals, and commandments is ubiquitous in human culture across time and place. It makes the mysteries of life and death less scary. And poignantly, we are all 100% certain that our particular god, myths, and afterlife are the true ones.
We’re thinkers, and we know we’re going to die. But we don’t know why. We feel helpless, like the infants we once were. So we invent heavenly parents. Then coincidences look like miracles. At its root, the longing for a supernatural, all-loving/all-punishing, heavenly parent is biological.
Religion brings out both the best and the worst in people. Extraordinary acts of charity, sacrifice and selflessness; unspeakable cruelty, depravity, lust for power and control. How many millions of people have been killed in the name of god? We just can’t escape being human.
For those who find religion helpful, carry on! It’s our right. But for others, a life of meaning does not require religion. I used to seek higher order truth in religion. But for me, ultimately, it made no sense.
The two game-changers for me were Viktor Frankl’s masterwork, “Man’s Search for Meaning,” and “The Illusion of God’s Presence: The Biological Origins of Spiritual Longing” by John Wathey, PhD. I agree that it’s essential to have meaning and purpose in life, and to be connected to the world through love. How we get there is an individual matter.
I like your essay very much, Beeswax, thank you for sharing it. There are many paths to meaning, purpose, and loving thy neighbor. God works for some, not for others. Either is fine with me as long as the choice is not imposed on those who think otherwise.
Can you offer an example? That would be interesting. I think it's pretty well established that the bible is built on what came before it but then honed into a powerful tract. You're acting like it doesn't count if it used concepts that came before it for inspiration. That's not really a valid argument against religiion or its potential for good.
I can see you are not an atheist RT because you are still raging at God. A true atheist would never be this disappointed.
For me, the thing to remember is that each person's experience, particularly in this sphere, is unique to him or her. When we start to argue based on presumptions of others' true beliefs, you may as well be shouting into the void. In the world of faith and spiritual connection, there are multiple and complex factors that drive and inspire people. To imagine we hold all the answers, particularly when it leads us to mock, belittle, or reduce others' spiritual practice to one-dimensional stereotype, is akin, not to loving God less, but loving one's fellow human less by underestimating them.; essentially, to scorning humans.
However, believing that God is a being in the sky whose job is to conveniently answer our prayers, appears to be a particularly simplistic or childish notion. Just because we are God's children does not mean we should literally act like spoiled children in a transactional relationship that demands our prayers are answered or we'll stop believing. Human evil and human wrongdoing are more reason to believe in a benevolent spiriitual energy, not less. Human responsibility and free will demand that we find our way to God rather than be given a free ride as if the world is supposed to be Disneyland once we've paid the price of entry. We work on ourselves and our betterment for life and that includes our spiritual development and understanding.
The word God itself stretches to encompass a seemingly infinite amount of interpretations- as many as there are people on earth at least. Our inner worlds are truly ours alone and also change over time.
I believe there are many paths to God and also that there are paths away from God which encompass the full gamut- from 'religious' to atheist.
How we treat others and the choices we make, define our spiritual place in each monent, or one could say, our relationship with God.
Sure I can accept that god is an idea and one that can inspire oneself to strive for a life that maximizes well being and minimizes suffering. How we choose to engage with consciousness and it’s contents is a goal to be practiced daily, a seemingly easy thing to do but very difficult to practice. Simply put, be awed by the beautiful sun and clouds after a morning of rain--there’s a lot of beauty to appreciate and a lot of ways to elicit gratitude for being able to be a part of this moment.
I should add that conscience as a concept is rooted and has evolved through religion. Modern, Western law is based on religion. Believing that conscience spirngs from each of us individually without guidance is quire naive.
There is a wealth of history regarding religion and religious precepts and their impact on our world. It is an enormous subject you appear to be reducing to highlight its most negative traits.
This assumption that everyone who extols the virtues of a spiritual relationship with God has been brainwashed or conditioned into a fixed, inflexible, and narrow religious practice, seems very misguided to me. I made that very clear in my first response, which you ignored in order to project what ypu wanted to read rather than what I said.
Regardless, I wish you an enjoyable Sunday and Happy Easter!
To you and millions of others, of course. Others differ, and their view is equally valid. Whatever gets you through life with purpose and morality is good.
Interesting to see an old argument against humanism resurface. When we killed God, we replaced him with ourselves, resulting in pathological self-absorption and the worship of ourselves. Now, the good thing about the Christian God is that death is no great barrier, as he’s prone to resurrection.
When we killed God and replaced him with ourselves, as you say, the family was a casualty of that effort. Family is where we first learn how to love, sacrifice, be disciplined, and be generous in spirit, all of those things that are good. Without emphasizing the family as a rock-solid support system, founded on objective truth, we set ourselves up to fail at a societal level. I think the author points to an aching to return to God, family, and objectivity... an ache that's only growing.
https://buildingdocs.substack.com/p/rocks
I might be a humanist, maybe even an atheist. These labels don’t carry much value and their definitions are blurry. The form of humanism that I carry is not at odds with a belief in something greater than ourselves.
I believe that God is a creation of the marvelous human mind that presents itself in every culture around the world throughout history. The structure of religion gives us a language to describe that which is greater than ourselves.
I believe that Christianity is not factually accurate. I was not raised with its concepts presented as truths and therefore my analytical and evidence-seeking mind developed before my faith in miracles could take root. Yet I see the value in and am struck with awe at the concepts of a virgin birth, stone tablets containing the rules for life, healing the sick when all hope was lost as Jesus did in the streets, feeding the hungry by multiplying fish, life after death, and accepting and forgiving humanity and myself for all our brokenness.
I believe that there is something greater than ourselves. In fact, this is an inescapable reality that one needs only to slow down and notice. The world happens around us regardless of our intentions. Plants grow, Earth turns, water runs, people live and die, and my thoughts tumble forth from some place I cannot see.
I believe that purpose in life is crucially important and that I struggle to know what mine is. Raising good children is a purpose in my life that is largely fulfilled. There are so many problems and so much need in this world, it is difficult to know where to apply oneself. I want to give homes to the homeless, peace to the addicts, food to the hungry, and protection to all the sentient creatures and their natural environment. I want to continue experiencing the richness of the world with my family and beloved friends. Here I rest in the higher power to grant me the wisdom to recognize opportunities for courage to act on those opportunities to achieve my purpose.
I appreciate the Free Press comment section because it literally pops my bubble. I agree with some of what I see posted here. I chuckle instead of becoming offended at posts where democrats/liberals are generally cast as stupid, reckless and godless. Since I was granted the privilege to vote I have voted for democratic US presidents and have vehemently defended the party platform to anyone who would discuss it. No longer. In 2024 I may write in Nellie Bowles. Today I find myself confused about what the two parties in our system actually stand for; I’m aghast at both sides. The FP and its subscribers are so much closer to the truth of the important matters at hand than any of the cast of characters on the reality show of politics that is presented to the people by the media powerhouses of the 21st century.
Thanks for reading. Happy Easter everyone.
PS I initially posted this comment as a top level thread, but it gets buried by the default "top first" sort. So, posting as a response to this thoughtful thread so that some eyes will see it.
I agree. I was raised Catholic but I am not sure if I believe in a "God" up in "Heaven" but I do believe there is an immense power that the human mind cannot comprehend. I believe that all religions and their respective God is an attempt to understand that power. I do see the value in some religions teaching values such as in The Ten Commandments. Not a bad set of rules to live by. However, the extremes of religious zealots really disturbs me and unfortunately causes so many problems in the world. I prefer not to practice any organized religion but live my life with kindness, gratitude, compassion and giving in whatever way I can. I do believe having a purpose is important no matter what it is as long as one is not hurting others. Narcissism, being selfish and self centered not included.
At an age when most normal people would be six feet under, I hobble along , cane in hand, in my expat community trying to find some 'Purpose" other than another marguerita to keep me going. the only one I have come up with - and trust me, this one is not easy,-- is to speak up when
I hear the vicious remarks about the Orange Man or the people who support him . I have kept my own council for years fearing that I would lose friends I cannot afford to lose. But now, I figure most of my friends are in nursig homes or "sleeping with their ancestors" as they way and with it is hard to make friends anyway when you in are in your mid-80's so just bite the bullet. Suprisingly, when I have, another fearful soul will speak up and say "thank you for saying that"
Bless you Dorothy. I too am an expat, further south in Panama. My heart breaks for the USA but I'll never go back. I'm trying to mentally divorce myself. Sanity exists and rules here. It certainly does not in the states.
Dorothy, I would be more inclined to join you in insisting we chill out on "Orange Man" jibes if (a) Trump didn't insult non-supporters on a regular basis, and (b) MAGA supporters did not routinely rip "addled nursing home escapee diaper-wearing drooling pervert Slow Biden" the same way. I wish we'd all dial back the rhetoric, America needs to calm down.
"Sleeping with their ancestors" is the best thing I've read today, thanks.
So your purpose is to live in an expat community drinking and socializing with other Americans with TDS? Come on back to the USA and volunteer to read to kindergartners. Now that’s a purpose.
Thank you for your advice to move back to the US of a and read to kindergartners. However I am pretty old maybe too old to move again plus I am what we call an economic refugee, I don't drink, and I do read to kindergartners although they are Mexican children. So I thank you for giving me the advice you give and I hope you have a great weekend
Class Dorothy. Pure class.
Agree completely---pure class.
Ms. Dorothy I wish I could meet you in person! I bet you’re a force to be reckoned with.
> When we killed God, we replaced him with ourselves
For some that's true, but then a new religion surfaced: Wokeness. Again, there was something to Believe in: Social Justice. It's quite notable how the new religion maps over the old one, just the names have changed, for example we still have Original Sin, but now we call it Whiteness. Whereas the Children of Israel were formerly held in bondage by Pharaoh, now The Victims are held in bondage by White Privilege. Moses, however, is a composite: Kendi, DiAngelo, Sharpton, etc. all offer to lead God's Children to Transition. For a reasonable price. We still have Confession, but it's called the Struggle Session.
It's a form of Gnosticism. Its believers see themselves as the Elect, possessors of knowledge that no other humans can comprehend. Thus, they see themselves as superior beings, and therefore entitled to rule. Others are sub-human to the Elect; the common man is a burden, and deserves no better treatment than farm animals -- possibly worse.
I like the comparison. Certainly when some kid decides he Knows that he's really a girl, he is accessing Hidden Knowledge. In about the same way the Lived Experience that the Victims have is a form of Hidden Knowledge that whitey can't hope to understand but must accede to. Indeed the Victims are the Elect because their claims cannot be challenged and suffering -- how the Victims have suffered! -- is proof of persecution thus proof of saintliness. Indigenous Ways Of Knowing are also Gnostic.
Well put!
We need to tell the stories. If we don't, people will find something else to fill the "God-shaped hole in their hearts."
https://joelelorentzen.substack.com/p/faith-by-default
I think that is true. I'm not sure that I believe in the conventional God, but I do believe that Christ lived and that his message was misconstrued by his disciples, as recorded in the New Testament, that "God" resided in a physical Heaven and that Christ was the only son of God. I believe his message is that each one of us has God within us, that you are also a child of God, but that we must each dig within ourselves to find God and the holy spirit that binds each of us to the other. Without this self-knowledge and without the understanding that the only way to find happiness in life is to work to make others happy, one's life will be empty and meaningless, leading to a form of atheism that is truly nothing more than self-worship.
"I believe his message is that each one of us has God within us, that you are also a child of God, but that we must each dig within ourselves to find God and the holy spirit that binds each of us to the other."
But this is part of the message of Christianity! The Orthodox call it "Theosis"; Catholics call it "Sanctification." Through belief in Jesus we come to the sacraments, which give us a real, physical and spiritual participation in his life, the life of God, which makes us children of God and, if we allow it, transforms us from within into participation in the Divinity Itself.
In Christianity, we do have "God within us" - THE God, a personal God, who made heaven and earth. And the bond we have between each other is The Church.
I think though, that there are two reasons why people (especially Americans) fail to find this in Christianity:
1) The predominant form of Christianity in America is Protestantism, and the fundamental basis of Protestantism is a rejection of a) infused, transformative grace that leads to genuine theosis / sanctification in favor of imputed justification ( aka "Just accept Jesus and you are saved" ) and b) a rejection of the institutional structures the provide unity and sacramental life.
(I don't mean to be offensive to Protestants; I grew up a confessional Lutheran and, even twenty + years since my conversion to Catholicism in college, I have a lot of sentimental affection for that tradition. But Luther really threw the baby out with the bathwater when it came to the nature of grace and the importance of the Church.)
2) While the idea of an divine aspect in my inner soul is attractive to most people, a transformative relationship with a *personal* God, a God who is a *someone* rather than just a vague inner spirituality or goodness, is hard for people because it demands a relationship, and that relationship, like all relationships, demands that we transform ourselves in ways that might be challenging to us in order to grow into that relationship. It's one thing to be vaguely "spiritual" - it's another to believe in a personal, indwelling God that wants to *transform* us with concrete demands and principles about what a transformed life in relationship with Him looks like.
I think a lot of modern people are afraid of that kind of personal relationship with the Divinity for the same reason they flinch at relationships like marriage and parenthood - the level of commitment and demands to conform my will to one outside my own can be terrifying.
But it is so worth it if you can make the leap.
Hi Jeff, I would ask you to consider if we have to dig to find God within ourselves, does that not make God a person created in our image? If He is created in our image, would this god, of our creation, be able to guide us, succor us in our troubles, or redeem us from our sins, or save us from death? I would posit to you the answer is, no. I would go further and say only in Jesus will one find meaning and purpose in life that transcends circumstances and removes our fear of death and lack of meaning.
"only in Jesus will one find meaning and purpose in life that transcends circumstances and removes our fear of death and lack of meaning."
Only? That's not remotely true. Billions of people worldwide lives lives of meaning, purpose, and comfort without Jesus. I'm one of them. I'm genuinely happy that Jesus works well for you, but not everyone is a Christian.
Thank you for your courtesy, Shane. You're right not everyone is a Christian, and they find hope and consolation in their self-designed lives. But at one point or another self-designed doesn't work and they need someone more, Jesus steps in when they ask and makes all the difference.
You're very welcome, Cynthia, and to you in return. I have no issue with people seeking Jesus, because we all need to believe in something bigger than ourselves to make our spin on this planet a good and moral ride. Embracing Jesus is a far better way to cure what ails you than liquor, meth, and other escapes. My only point was that this has to be voluntary, not imposed on those who seek other ways, whether that be other religions, service to humanity, or keeping Nature alive and well. God works through many channels. Happy Easter to you.
I wholeheartedly support you in your understanding of God and your love for Jesus.
Thank you. Great comment. What we lost when mankind decided it no longer needed God was the idea of ourselves as fallen sinners needing God’s forgiveness and redemption. Think of all the attempts in recent history when mankind acted as though it could be its own God---they have all ended in catastrophe. Yet we don’t learn.
A belief in God comes with restraint on our evil urges. To quote Dostoyevsky, “When there is no God, all is permissible.” Right, and chaos follows. We don’t even acknowledge evil exists anymore.
On this Holy Saturday before the “Superbowl of Christianity”, Resurrection Day, I am going out on a limb here and suggesting to readers to find a church and refind God in your lives. Open yourselves up the his love and forgiveness. Find something bigger than yourself to believe in. It will be a refuge in a world-gone-mad.
NCMaureen, Yes....And his love and all that comes with it is FREE. I second Maureen’s suggestion.
I won’t debate the false choice of needing god to bring purpose to one’s life. Instead your point about mankind abandoning god. How about the other way around--god abandoning mankind. A serious a analysis of our history suggests this is the case. All the great miracles believers stake their belief in god somehow ended with the alleged resurrection. A belieber now carries that heavy burden to justify their existence. There are better ways. How about saying hi to your neighbor and taking a keen interest in listening to them talk about their life.
Did you read the article? Notice the titles cited: _Bowling Alone_ and _Coming Apart_?
David, I agree that one doesn't need God to live a moral and purposeful life. (I believe in God, but the purposeful life I have is independent of that.) But those who do need God, like NCmaureen, don't need to justify their existence. Belief and non-belief require no justification to anyone.
This is just secondary to the issue under discussion.
The author of _Bowling Alone_ (referenced in the article) is also famous for conducting studies that showed that increased diversity led to decreased levels of social cohesiveness. At the individual level human beings are free to find purpose however they want (or not).
But at the aggregate level the abandonment of religion is leading to a more fractured and polarized society with plummeting levels of social trust. Given that why should anyone be surprised that rates of violent crime are sky rocketing?
That we are no longer forced to pledge allegiance to X or be voted off the island is a social good, not social ill. The culturally enforced straightjacket of "men rule, women submit, Christ is King, no blacks, Jews, or Irish need apply, the only good Injun is a dead Injun, and I'm bored, Earl, let's do us some queer-bashing, is best left in the rear-view mirror. Social cohesiveness at the point of a gun is not cohesiveness, it's prison with a nicer name. Women can even get credit cards without their husbands' permission these days! Sure, this freedom makes society a little more unruly than The Good Old Days, but's it a worthy tradeoff.
I hardly think violent crime is skyrocketing because Americans are walking away from Christianity. The U.S. violent crime rate has been plummeting since the Nineties, the same time period The Great Abandonment is occurring.
Your information about violent crime rates is completely incorrect. If you look at the homicide rate for the US it peaked in 1992 and has been falling ever since--until about five years ago when the rate started increasing again. In 2020 of course after the pandemic the national homicide rate saw its greatest year on year increase in modern recorded history (and quite possibly the largest such increase ever for the United States).
Plus homicide rates differ significantly by racial group. The rates for whites and Hispanics right now are relatively high but the rate for poor blacks is higher now than it was in 1992, meaning that it's the highest it's ever been in modern recorded history.
Do crime rates correlate with a lack of social cohesion? There is research that seems to indicate that they do. The problem is that as religion declines nothing is replacing it in terms of social glue and the country is fragmenting into multiple mutually hostile warring tribes. For example, racial tensions between blacks and Asian Americans right now are probably the worst they've been since the Rodney King riots.
My information is correct, Slaw, at least in the broad strokes: compared to the mid-1990s, the violent crime rate in the United States has dropped by half. I agree it's kicked up in the last five years, mostly due to Covid stress, but that doesn't mean we're back to the crack-fueled Crime Nineties. My source for the numbers if you're interested:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/191219/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-usa-since-1990/
"The problem is that as religion declines nothing is replacing it in terms of social glue and the country is fragmenting into multiple mutually hostile warring tribes."
This observation I agree with 100 percent. It's not that I mind our national retreat from the thumb of Christianity; that was long overdue. The failure to replace that common glue with something else is indeed turning us into little warring tribes. Racial tensions are serious: antisemitism is exploding, and as you note, the tension between Black and Asian Americans is thick. White hostility toward Asians is open and raw. Politicians and social media fan the flames and splash the gasoline because they make money and win re-election through rage.
America is addicted to Rageahol.
The gold standard for reporting on violent crimes is homicide rates. Why? Because as police departments and response times degrade some percentage of violent crimes simply go unreported. On the other hand it is very difficult to hide a body.
So what do homicide rates tell us? The national homicide rate is back up to around where it was in 1996--not a good thing for a country that saw a steady decline in that rate from 1992 to about 2014. Saying that homicides now are not as bad as they were in the '90's is misleading--they are as bad as 1996 and significantly worse than 1998 or 1999.
And again, what happens if you break down rates by racial demographic? Rates for poor blacks are higher now than at any time in modern history--and that obviously includes the 1990's.
As for my second point I think there are many factors behind the explosion in tribalism. But surely one has to be the obsession with race on the left. For years whites have grouped the country into white people and everybody else. No Asian person would look at the black population and feel any special sense of kinship and indeed historically the evidence is that there is usually a substantial amount of friction between racial minorities in the United States.
Whites though understandably are usually ignorant of these racial dynamics and that has led them to conclude that a coalition of liberal whites plus racial minorities is a winning combination. Of course the reality is that once everyone sorts themselves into separate tribes the consequence is tribal conflict: Asians versus blacks versus Hispanics versus whites and so on. It is a recipe for national disunity.
One more thing: the period from 1960 to 1992 saw rising homicide rates. From 1992 to 2014 rates declined. That is roughly a 30 year cycle. If one assumes periodic increases and decreases in homicide rates the US is in for another 10-20 years, at least, of rising crime.
Agreed about the homicide cycle. We're in an upswing now, it will stay for decades, then go back down.
What would you suggest this nation do about its fracturization, if anything can be done?
Thank you for sharing this. I’ve come to learn that the need to justify my existence is pointless when I no longer view life as journey that demands purpose. Just enjoy your life and the beauty it holds and allow that to inspire you to increase the well being of society. If you need to channel this endeavor through a religious practice, go for it. Just know that religion isn’t a prerequisite to live a meaningful life.
"religion isn’t a prerequisite to live a meaningful life."
Well said, David. Religion is one of many ways to live a meaningful life, but only one. If religion is embraced voluntarily and not imposed on the unwilling, more power to those who drive that path. I take the scenic route instead :-)
Reading the Bible does not need "Religion" either. We all believe in something.
Your arrogance is stunning. "False choice" "God abandoning mankind" "a believer carries the burden to justify their existence". You are simply foisting your doubt onto every one else. You are who Ms. Boyle's is describing in the article.
Stunning? How is his view more arrogant than "On this Holy Saturday before the “Superbowl of Christianity,” Resurrection Day, I am going out on a limb here and suggesting to readers to find a church and re-find God in your lives. Open yourselves up the his love and forgiveness"?
I'm not knocking God; I'm a believer, Jewish edition. But believing that someone needs church and God's "love and forgiveness" to have a purpose in life, or to act nobly and morally, is just as arrogant as thinking religion is hooey.
If you do not understand the difference in the condemnation of the language I quoted and the nicely worded suggestion you quoted I cannot explain it to you.
I understand the difference. I simply don't agree that his view is arrogant, let alone stunningly so.
NCmaureen needs God in her life to provide purpose. David does not. Both views are valid and neither is arrogant. Why did you condemn one as arrogant but not the other?
I do not proselytize. I have been free to choose my path and that is all I wish for others. But to say what the poster you are defending said is the opposite of that. Proselytizing for the position of no faith. In a very insulting, no holds barred, hence arrogant, fashion. That is vastly different than suggesting out of kindness to someone lamenting their circumstances that maybe they should reach out to God. IOW I do not object to the idea of no faith but rather to the insulting nature of the rhetoric.
Lynn, I also enjoy your comments. I am a Christian and believe because of so much evidence, and I've seen so many people turn their lives around turning to Jesus. I agree with you, it is the tone of non-believers. Or people on the Left. If someone does good and their motivation is their belief in God, what does it matter to non-believers? If someone does good and they don't believe in God - good for them! But don't take away the chance for someone who is hurting to turn to God because the world mocks that choice.
Exactly. Thank you for that Linda. Plus while believers operate on faith that their belief is correct non-believers are too often oblivious to the fact that they likewise operate on faith. Their's is just faith that we are wrong.
"I do not object to the idea of no faith but rather to the insulting nature of the rhetoric."
Okay, you sold me. Thanks for the nice chat, Lynne.
You too Shane. As always.
I agree. My view, and just mine, is that God is a human construct that people find comforting and decide to believe in. The invention of creation myths, deities, rituals, and commandments is ubiquitous in human culture across time and place. It makes the mysteries of life and death less scary. And poignantly, we are all 100% certain that our particular god, myths, and afterlife are the true ones.
We’re thinkers, and we know we’re going to die. But we don’t know why. We feel helpless, like the infants we once were. So we invent heavenly parents. Then coincidences look like miracles. At its root, the longing for a supernatural, all-loving/all-punishing, heavenly parent is biological.
Religion brings out both the best and the worst in people. Extraordinary acts of charity, sacrifice and selflessness; unspeakable cruelty, depravity, lust for power and control. How many millions of people have been killed in the name of god? We just can’t escape being human.
For those who find religion helpful, carry on! It’s our right. But for others, a life of meaning does not require religion. I used to seek higher order truth in religion. But for me, ultimately, it made no sense.
The two game-changers for me were Viktor Frankl’s masterwork, “Man’s Search for Meaning,” and “The Illusion of God’s Presence: The Biological Origins of Spiritual Longing” by John Wathey, PhD. I agree that it’s essential to have meaning and purpose in life, and to be connected to the world through love. How we get there is an individual matter.
I like your essay very much, Beeswax, thank you for sharing it. There are many paths to meaning, purpose, and loving thy neighbor. God works for some, not for others. Either is fine with me as long as the choice is not imposed on those who think otherwise.
Yes. Thank you.
Sure. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery. See ancient Greeks and Babylonians. These ideas were not new.
Can you offer an example? That would be interesting. I think it's pretty well established that the bible is built on what came before it but then honed into a powerful tract. You're acting like it doesn't count if it used concepts that came before it for inspiration. That's not really a valid argument against religiion or its potential for good.
Beautifully said and thank you for such an educational statement.
I can see you are not an atheist RT because you are still raging at God. A true atheist would never be this disappointed.
For me, the thing to remember is that each person's experience, particularly in this sphere, is unique to him or her. When we start to argue based on presumptions of others' true beliefs, you may as well be shouting into the void. In the world of faith and spiritual connection, there are multiple and complex factors that drive and inspire people. To imagine we hold all the answers, particularly when it leads us to mock, belittle, or reduce others' spiritual practice to one-dimensional stereotype, is akin, not to loving God less, but loving one's fellow human less by underestimating them.; essentially, to scorning humans.
However, believing that God is a being in the sky whose job is to conveniently answer our prayers, appears to be a particularly simplistic or childish notion. Just because we are God's children does not mean we should literally act like spoiled children in a transactional relationship that demands our prayers are answered or we'll stop believing. Human evil and human wrongdoing are more reason to believe in a benevolent spiriitual energy, not less. Human responsibility and free will demand that we find our way to God rather than be given a free ride as if the world is supposed to be Disneyland once we've paid the price of entry. We work on ourselves and our betterment for life and that includes our spiritual development and understanding.
The word God itself stretches to encompass a seemingly infinite amount of interpretations- as many as there are people on earth at least. Our inner worlds are truly ours alone and also change over time.
I believe there are many paths to God and also that there are paths away from God which encompass the full gamut- from 'religious' to atheist.
How we treat others and the choices we make, define our spiritual place in each monent, or one could say, our relationship with God.
Sure I can accept that god is an idea and one that can inspire oneself to strive for a life that maximizes well being and minimizes suffering. How we choose to engage with consciousness and it’s contents is a goal to be practiced daily, a seemingly easy thing to do but very difficult to practice. Simply put, be awed by the beautiful sun and clouds after a morning of rain--there’s a lot of beauty to appreciate and a lot of ways to elicit gratitude for being able to be a part of this moment.
I should add that conscience as a concept is rooted and has evolved through religion. Modern, Western law is based on religion. Believing that conscience spirngs from each of us individually without guidance is quire naive.
There is a wealth of history regarding religion and religious precepts and their impact on our world. It is an enormous subject you appear to be reducing to highlight its most negative traits.
This assumption that everyone who extols the virtues of a spiritual relationship with God has been brainwashed or conditioned into a fixed, inflexible, and narrow religious practice, seems very misguided to me. I made that very clear in my first response, which you ignored in order to project what ypu wanted to read rather than what I said.
Regardless, I wish you an enjoyable Sunday and Happy Easter!
God bless you! Perfectly said.
AMEN 🙏 A life with GOD is infinitely better than a life without. 🙏
To you and millions of others, of course. Others differ, and their view is equally valid. Whatever gets you through life with purpose and morality is good.