At this point, all the problems in Higher Ed-- from rampant cheating and the devaluing of education to the plethora of DEI administrators looking for problems-- have made me seriously consider whether I want my grandchildren to attend college. I hate writing that, but I'd rather they learned an …
At this point, all the problems in Higher Ed-- from rampant cheating and the devaluing of education to the plethora of DEI administrators looking for problems-- have made me seriously consider whether I want my grandchildren to attend college. I hate writing that, but I'd rather they learned an honest trade and worked with their hands than become cheaters and liars.
We are in the same exact boat with our sons. Despite the fact that I am a college professor, we are leaning toward directing them toward trades rather than university. The value and benefit has waned tremendously while the negative implications have increased.
As described to me by my trading floor manager, 'Money is a dirty filthy thing, that tends to attract dirty filthy people'. It looks like the multitrillions of dollars in education has reached this point of attracting the worst behavior.
I'm curious, what would you do to reform your Ivy League school if you had a magic wand? Is the money the problem or a symptom? By money I mean student loans, endowments, cost, the expense of the academic administrative state, and/or the price of the paper (dgree).
The education industry has done an excellent job convincing everyone that having a college degree signifies "intelligence" and "employability" even as colleges and universities have lowered standards significantly. First, we as a society must respect those who work with their hands and/or choose to pursue careers that do not require a college degree (and there should be more of those jobs).
If I had a magic wand, I would hire an ideologically diverse faculty and try to ensure an ideologically diverse student body. I would not tie scholarships to race but to parental income, ensuring a broader swath of people benefit. Finally, I would fire most administrators who do nothing but sit in their cushy offices and get in the way of good teaching.
That's very interesting and thank you for the response. Financial diversity, trades diversity and age diversity are the most important divides that I see in higher ed, and in the US society as a whole. Amen to the administrative purge.
I would suggest in high school to start hiring educators who did not get a college degree or a masters degree in education. This would help diversify thought and move away from the current intellectual incest that is systemically built into the education complex.
I just listened to Chris Rufo on Jordan Peterson's podcast from Feb 27. Chris addresses beautifully the issues of bringing mid- and higher education past the Woke/postmodern state it is currently in. I am so encouraged to hear him! And one of the proposals he mentions involves hiring people to teach who have BAs in REAL subjects - such as math or physics - rather than in "Education".
I'm unsure if the reply was to me or Adrienne, but Rufo's suggestions for a BA or a BS is on the money. The concept should actually be expanded. If you have a successful individual in business, business or cooking, or shop- contracting, who wants to teach- the school or the individual with the desire to teach their craft should not be restrained by a Masters of Ed requirement, or maybe not even with a college degree.
Trade school is the way for a lot of people. You'll have a good job, make good money and won't have the debt. College education was never meant for everyone but somehow we've gotten to the point that educated means you've gone to college. Even though most college graduates are dumber than your average plumber.
High school kids are not reading books anymore. I believe neither are college students. Honestly I'm having trouble understanding the point of a college "education" in the current era. You can learn pretty much all of mankind's knowledge at the touch of a button these days. Why pay a small fortune to have it spoonfed to you?
I have two daughters in middle school. I also have a family member who is quite wealthy who has helped us put away for the college education and they should both have somewhere between $150k to $200k when they graduate high school for higher education.
The oldest plans on working with my husband in his multi family real estate business. That would require some certifications and marketing. My youngest wants to be a fitness instructor and open her own gym geared towards women. Also requires certifications, marketing and money down on gym space.
Once this is complete, both of them plan on taking the remaining money, which should be fairly substantial, and putting it down on a house. So I figure a couple years after graduation they both should be hopefully gainfully self-employed, starting to earn more money, and be homeowners. If they decide they do want to go into some sort of corporate environment in the future, their real world business experience will probably count for quite a bit. Certainly more than a four year business degree would with no experience.
Compare that with most college graduates, four years out with a useless marketing degree or some thing, who are now broke, and struggling to find basic employment. They also will be able to work for themselves and avoid the corporate hell scape, which I unfortunately have had to be a part of for a good portion of my career.
That said, a lot of our more liberal professional friends are pushing their kids to get into really good schools and get masters degrees and things like history or what not and they think we’re crazy. I’m not sure what the point of it all is. So they can be broke and working at Starbucks? Or maybe they can be well paid living in a corporate job, but honestly the corporate world is getting worse. I know this is hyperbolic but that’s a prison. It used to be that you could work corporate and do some interesting stuff and work with some decent people but that’s getting harder and harder to find. I say this is a professional. Ive been working in corporate for the past 30 years. I’m burnt and I’m getting out and I don’t care if I have to be an Instagram shopper to do it. I can’t see pushing my kids into this anymore.
Jennifer, your daughters appear to be on a great path. As far as your “professional friends” sometimes it’s best to not follow the heard... especially when it’s headed towards a cliff. One of my favorite and strongest female characters is Dagny Taggert, in Ayn Rand’s novel Atlas Shrugged. I remember her using her own rationale, own brain, her own logic to make decisions. While not a huge effect character, she was brave enough to trust her own logic. Your daughters seem to have a great understanding as well.
I loved reading your comment so much! It was not dark but rather REAL. Your daughters are lucky to have a parent that teaches them there is more than one path to success. Also that you are raising them to believe in themselves that they can be entrepreneurs and home owners and that day-to-day happiness and contentment is important. I think YOU are the one who's getting it right. Bravo Mom!
Before my current job, which is challenging and something I *REALLY* enjoy, I was in the corporate "ether"--so many managers had come and gone that nobody really knew what my job was or what I did so I pretty much had next to nothing to do. Sounds ideal, right? Well, not really. Having to sit at a desk for eight hours a day with nothing to do made the days drag on forever--it's not like I could openly read a book or surf the web because the cubicles were all open space so everyone could see what everyone else was doing.
I was in that situation for a couple years. I had an actual office with walls and window behind me, desk facing the door / glass front wall. So, there I was, spending hours a day on discussion forums about various hobbies, reading history, etc. On the plus side, when I did get work emails, I replied REALLY FAST.
A good friend of mine who graduated Wharton with 2 boys about to finish high school said the same thing. He doesn't even care if his kids go to college anymore.
It's funny hearing this from a Wharton grad. I went to Penn in the late 2000s. We always joked about how Wharton was the hardest school to get into and the easiest school to get out of because it was all group presentations, bullshit multiple choice exams, and networking. My Wharton friends cared very little about actually learning anything compared to those of us in the other three undergraduate schools and they were extremely open about it. They just wanted the credential that would get them into McKinsey or Goldman or Bain, exactly as the Penn student interviewed in the article describes; nothing has changed on that front. Wharton undergrads went to class as little as possible and constantly found ways to cheat even without the digital tools available to us today. Those of us studying the sciences, humanities or engineering typically cared a lot about actually learning the subject matter of our majors so we spent a lot more time actually working and studying (we all spent a lot of time partying though). It was an open secret that Wharton students were mercenaries, a mindset that no doubt serves grads well in their careers on Wall Street.
All of this to say: Wharton has never been about the education, not for undergrads and certainly not for MBAs.
My kid is applying to colleges right now. The prices are ridiculous, the politics are out of control. I have suggested she go to the local community college for a couple of years, for a fraction of the price. Other family members think she needs a “liberal arts education“ and are pushing her to go to a small (expensive) school. She herself just sees it as a social experience, and wants to attend with friends. The way I see it, as long as she doesn’t borrow money, she’ll probably get something out of it, maybe not a lot of knowledge but at least it’s an experience.
I get the social experience thing; I too “found myself” in college, but my tribe was very unique; but for most kids in this mindset, where socializing is more valued than learning anything, the people they are socializing with, the social experiences they’ll wind up with —what they remember—-…how do i put this…may not be of the best value for your daughter… What will she get out of it? College has become a very expensive extended adolescence summer camp. And she will be surrounded by extended adolescents. I wish you could steer her towards socializing with a new type of people. These are the people among whom she will likely find a husband and form a new family tree with.
(If this doesn’t apply to your daughter, don’t mind me. I hope people see the point I’m trying to make though.)
My son picked up German while we were over there, and I am heavily encouraging him to go to University there. A solid engineering education can be had at any of around 20 universities, there's no tuition cost, and the Universities don't have the funding to indulge in took much woke BS. For now.
An experience? Hiking Grand Canyon is an experience. Traveling the country is an experience. Volunteering at a soup kitchen or shelter is an experience. And ANY of these will cost far less and mean far more than any oversold, overpriced, corrupt university indoctrination.
Is that experience worth the price? For the same amount of money, she can travel the world and see what the world is really like.
With the way colleges are, young people are better off if they take some years after high school to learn a trade. Trade is in high demand. Yes even for women too, Save up the money and if the desire to go to college is really there, go when they have some money saved up for tuition. They'll be more mature by then too with some real life experiences and less prone to being indoctrinated.
I mean...I can think of many better uses for $250,000 than a four-year summer camp. Does she *really* need to go to college? Maybe a gap year to get herself together?
She has a college fund set up by the grandparents. I've told her she absolutely must not borrow money, and ideally would graduate with lots of funds left over, for graduate school or even just to cash out (at a penalty) for a car or her first downpayment on a property (which I'm encouraging her to purchase as soon as possible).
I feel one of my 2-3 biggest mistakes was not buying property when I was perfectly able to do so earlier in life. Also should have put more into an IRA, and start my own business early on... plenty of mistakes to talk about. But each person has to, and will, make their own mistakes before they learn.
As with everything you get out of it what you put into it.
I always ask accounting questions when I interview candidates. If they can't answer them then it's a hard pass of course. Then you wasted 4 years and a lot of money for no reason.
I will go so far as to say it’s an unnecessary filter for competence in the job market. If companies hired entry-level white-collar candidates with a HS degree, college attendance would dry up.
I would argue that the value of college has always been the contacts you make that help you (and you them) later in life. Everything I learned in college I could have learned on my own from reading books but I wouldn't have made the social connections that have helped my career and personal life.
That about sums it up. I believe that, gradually over time, university education will diminish in value and prestige to the point where it will almost be an embarrassment to even have it on your résumé.
I learned a lot from my History and China Studies professors. When I was in school (early 80s) the Socratic method still existed at least in some places.
That generation of professors, raised during WW2 and completed their education in the 1940s-50s, are long gone now. That generation of students some of whom actually respected their teachers are also gone.
I did too. I had close relationships with several professors and found myself while in college. I understand why some people would come out thinking it was all about the networking, and I think those people missed out. Sadly, I would never send my son to the liberal-arts college I attended now.
That's a HUGE change. If I got yelled at by a teacher, I would NEVER tell my parents because then they would discipline me. Nowadays, it seems most parents always take their kids' side and, worse, the kids KNOW it.
Yep this has a lot to do with parenting. I’m a big believer in natural consequences and at the start of every school year I tell my kids’ teachers such and that if one of my kids forget their lunch/homework/coat/permission slip/etc to not call me to save them and that I will support the teachers in whatever their consequence may be, whether that is not being allowed outside at recess to getting a bad grade or whatever. They will not die from missing a meal or a field trip or being cold this one time but they are likely to learn their lesson and not make the same mistake again. Teachers have told me I’m largely alone in this approach and I’ve been called several times over the years requesting I deliver a snack or a jacket or missing homework. I can only imagine the backlash if a teacher actually yelled at a child.
Yeah but the recent ones have had no contacts because of Covid lockdown and so many colleges isolating them in their dorm rooms even when they were let back onto campus. And even without Covid, how many spend more time online than with people they can hang with IRL?
Ivy League grad and former professor here.
At this point, all the problems in Higher Ed-- from rampant cheating and the devaluing of education to the plethora of DEI administrators looking for problems-- have made me seriously consider whether I want my grandchildren to attend college. I hate writing that, but I'd rather they learned an honest trade and worked with their hands than become cheaters and liars.
We are in the same exact boat with our sons. Despite the fact that I am a college professor, we are leaning toward directing them toward trades rather than university. The value and benefit has waned tremendously while the negative implications have increased.
It's heartbreaking, isn't it?
Thank you Adrienne, & my sentiments exactly.
As described to me by my trading floor manager, 'Money is a dirty filthy thing, that tends to attract dirty filthy people'. It looks like the multitrillions of dollars in education has reached this point of attracting the worst behavior.
I'm curious, what would you do to reform your Ivy League school if you had a magic wand? Is the money the problem or a symptom? By money I mean student loans, endowments, cost, the expense of the academic administrative state, and/or the price of the paper (dgree).
Thanks for the thoughtful question!
The education industry has done an excellent job convincing everyone that having a college degree signifies "intelligence" and "employability" even as colleges and universities have lowered standards significantly. First, we as a society must respect those who work with their hands and/or choose to pursue careers that do not require a college degree (and there should be more of those jobs).
If I had a magic wand, I would hire an ideologically diverse faculty and try to ensure an ideologically diverse student body. I would not tie scholarships to race but to parental income, ensuring a broader swath of people benefit. Finally, I would fire most administrators who do nothing but sit in their cushy offices and get in the way of good teaching.
That's very interesting and thank you for the response. Financial diversity, trades diversity and age diversity are the most important divides that I see in higher ed, and in the US society as a whole. Amen to the administrative purge.
I would suggest in high school to start hiring educators who did not get a college degree or a masters degree in education. This would help diversify thought and move away from the current intellectual incest that is systemically built into the education complex.
I just listened to Chris Rufo on Jordan Peterson's podcast from Feb 27. Chris addresses beautifully the issues of bringing mid- and higher education past the Woke/postmodern state it is currently in. I am so encouraged to hear him! And one of the proposals he mentions involves hiring people to teach who have BAs in REAL subjects - such as math or physics - rather than in "Education".
Hi Kate,
I'm unsure if the reply was to me or Adrienne, but Rufo's suggestions for a BA or a BS is on the money. The concept should actually be expanded. If you have a successful individual in business, business or cooking, or shop- contracting, who wants to teach- the school or the individual with the desire to teach their craft should not be restrained by a Masters of Ed requirement, or maybe not even with a college degree.
I completely agree.
Thanks for the civil, interesting discussion!
Well, at least properly learning to lie and cheat opens up a career in politics. There is that.
Trade school is the way for a lot of people. You'll have a good job, make good money and won't have the debt. College education was never meant for everyone but somehow we've gotten to the point that educated means you've gone to college. Even though most college graduates are dumber than your average plumber.
High school kids are not reading books anymore. I believe neither are college students. Honestly I'm having trouble understanding the point of a college "education" in the current era. You can learn pretty much all of mankind's knowledge at the touch of a button these days. Why pay a small fortune to have it spoonfed to you?
At this point, it's just a social delineator. You followed through and checked the box.
lol That last comment, though! HAHAHAHAHA
I tell my friends and their kids that a trade is more honorable and probably more lucrative than an undergrad degree.
I have two daughters in middle school. I also have a family member who is quite wealthy who has helped us put away for the college education and they should both have somewhere between $150k to $200k when they graduate high school for higher education.
The oldest plans on working with my husband in his multi family real estate business. That would require some certifications and marketing. My youngest wants to be a fitness instructor and open her own gym geared towards women. Also requires certifications, marketing and money down on gym space.
Once this is complete, both of them plan on taking the remaining money, which should be fairly substantial, and putting it down on a house. So I figure a couple years after graduation they both should be hopefully gainfully self-employed, starting to earn more money, and be homeowners. If they decide they do want to go into some sort of corporate environment in the future, their real world business experience will probably count for quite a bit. Certainly more than a four year business degree would with no experience.
Compare that with most college graduates, four years out with a useless marketing degree or some thing, who are now broke, and struggling to find basic employment. They also will be able to work for themselves and avoid the corporate hell scape, which I unfortunately have had to be a part of for a good portion of my career.
That said, a lot of our more liberal professional friends are pushing their kids to get into really good schools and get masters degrees and things like history or what not and they think we’re crazy. I’m not sure what the point of it all is. So they can be broke and working at Starbucks? Or maybe they can be well paid living in a corporate job, but honestly the corporate world is getting worse. I know this is hyperbolic but that’s a prison. It used to be that you could work corporate and do some interesting stuff and work with some decent people but that’s getting harder and harder to find. I say this is a professional. Ive been working in corporate for the past 30 years. I’m burnt and I’m getting out and I don’t care if I have to be an Instagram shopper to do it. I can’t see pushing my kids into this anymore.
Well, that took a dark turn. Ha ha.
Jennifer, your daughters appear to be on a great path. As far as your “professional friends” sometimes it’s best to not follow the heard... especially when it’s headed towards a cliff. One of my favorite and strongest female characters is Dagny Taggert, in Ayn Rand’s novel Atlas Shrugged. I remember her using her own rationale, own brain, her own logic to make decisions. While not a huge effect character, she was brave enough to trust her own logic. Your daughters seem to have a great understanding as well.
I loved reading your comment so much! It was not dark but rather REAL. Your daughters are lucky to have a parent that teaches them there is more than one path to success. Also that you are raising them to believe in themselves that they can be entrepreneurs and home owners and that day-to-day happiness and contentment is important. I think YOU are the one who's getting it right. Bravo Mom!
Thank you.
Before my current job, which is challenging and something I *REALLY* enjoy, I was in the corporate "ether"--so many managers had come and gone that nobody really knew what my job was or what I did so I pretty much had next to nothing to do. Sounds ideal, right? Well, not really. Having to sit at a desk for eight hours a day with nothing to do made the days drag on forever--it's not like I could openly read a book or surf the web because the cubicles were all open space so everyone could see what everyone else was doing.
I was in that situation for a couple years. I had an actual office with walls and window behind me, desk facing the door / glass front wall. So, there I was, spending hours a day on discussion forums about various hobbies, reading history, etc. On the plus side, when I did get work emails, I replied REALLY FAST.
A good friend of mine who graduated Wharton with 2 boys about to finish high school said the same thing. He doesn't even care if his kids go to college anymore.
It's funny hearing this from a Wharton grad. I went to Penn in the late 2000s. We always joked about how Wharton was the hardest school to get into and the easiest school to get out of because it was all group presentations, bullshit multiple choice exams, and networking. My Wharton friends cared very little about actually learning anything compared to those of us in the other three undergraduate schools and they were extremely open about it. They just wanted the credential that would get them into McKinsey or Goldman or Bain, exactly as the Penn student interviewed in the article describes; nothing has changed on that front. Wharton undergrads went to class as little as possible and constantly found ways to cheat even without the digital tools available to us today. Those of us studying the sciences, humanities or engineering typically cared a lot about actually learning the subject matter of our majors so we spent a lot more time actually working and studying (we all spent a lot of time partying though). It was an open secret that Wharton students were mercenaries, a mindset that no doubt serves grads well in their careers on Wall Street.
All of this to say: Wharton has never been about the education, not for undergrads and certainly not for MBAs.
My kid is applying to colleges right now. The prices are ridiculous, the politics are out of control. I have suggested she go to the local community college for a couple of years, for a fraction of the price. Other family members think she needs a “liberal arts education“ and are pushing her to go to a small (expensive) school. She herself just sees it as a social experience, and wants to attend with friends. The way I see it, as long as she doesn’t borrow money, she’ll probably get something out of it, maybe not a lot of knowledge but at least it’s an experience.
I get the social experience thing; I too “found myself” in college, but my tribe was very unique; but for most kids in this mindset, where socializing is more valued than learning anything, the people they are socializing with, the social experiences they’ll wind up with —what they remember—-…how do i put this…may not be of the best value for your daughter… What will she get out of it? College has become a very expensive extended adolescence summer camp. And she will be surrounded by extended adolescents. I wish you could steer her towards socializing with a new type of people. These are the people among whom she will likely find a husband and form a new family tree with.
(If this doesn’t apply to your daughter, don’t mind me. I hope people see the point I’m trying to make though.)
Yes, she’ll get something out of it. However, the chances are she’ll come out a worst person, morally, and socially.
Don’t discount the downsides to the “experience.” There are MANY.
My son picked up German while we were over there, and I am heavily encouraging him to go to University there. A solid engineering education can be had at any of around 20 universities, there's no tuition cost, and the Universities don't have the funding to indulge in took much woke BS. For now.
An experience? Hiking Grand Canyon is an experience. Traveling the country is an experience. Volunteering at a soup kitchen or shelter is an experience. And ANY of these will cost far less and mean far more than any oversold, overpriced, corrupt university indoctrination.
Agreed. There used to be some value in associating with lots of smart, highly educated people in a concentrated cauldron of learning.
I don't think there's much learning going on these days, certainly not much book learning.
Is that experience worth the price? For the same amount of money, she can travel the world and see what the world is really like.
With the way colleges are, young people are better off if they take some years after high school to learn a trade. Trade is in high demand. Yes even for women too, Save up the money and if the desire to go to college is really there, go when they have some money saved up for tuition. They'll be more mature by then too with some real life experiences and less prone to being indoctrinated.
I mean...I can think of many better uses for $250,000 than a four-year summer camp. Does she *really* need to go to college? Maybe a gap year to get herself together?
She has a college fund set up by the grandparents. I've told her she absolutely must not borrow money, and ideally would graduate with lots of funds left over, for graduate school or even just to cash out (at a penalty) for a car or her first downpayment on a property (which I'm encouraging her to purchase as soon as possible).
I feel one of my 2-3 biggest mistakes was not buying property when I was perfectly able to do so earlier in life. Also should have put more into an IRA, and start my own business early on... plenty of mistakes to talk about. But each person has to, and will, make their own mistakes before they learn.
And what’s the actual value of a college education now? I’d argue, if there is one at all, it’s most certainly not worth the sticker price.
As with everything you get out of it what you put into it.
I always ask accounting questions when I interview candidates. If they can't answer them then it's a hard pass of course. Then you wasted 4 years and a lot of money for no reason.
The value of a degree has been diluted by the number of people who have them.
I will go so far as to say it’s an unnecessary filter for competence in the job market. If companies hired entry-level white-collar candidates with a HS degree, college attendance would dry up.
I would argue that the value of college has always been the contacts you make that help you (and you them) later in life. Everything I learned in college I could have learned on my own from reading books but I wouldn't have made the social connections that have helped my career and personal life.
1. Standardized tests no longer required with lower admission requirements to ensure diversity.
2. Once admitted, cheating on tests permitted.
3. No more advanced classes that make those who don’t qualify feel excluded.
4. Equality of outcome the objective rather than equality of opportunity.
Do I have that right?
That about sums it up. I believe that, gradually over time, university education will diminish in value and prestige to the point where it will almost be an embarrassment to even have it on your résumé.
I learned a lot from my History and China Studies professors. When I was in school (early 80s) the Socratic method still existed at least in some places.
That generation of professors, raised during WW2 and completed their education in the 1940s-50s, are long gone now. That generation of students some of whom actually respected their teachers are also gone.
I did too. I had close relationships with several professors and found myself while in college. I understand why some people would come out thinking it was all about the networking, and I think those people missed out. Sadly, I would never send my son to the liberal-arts college I attended now.
That's a HUGE change. If I got yelled at by a teacher, I would NEVER tell my parents because then they would discipline me. Nowadays, it seems most parents always take their kids' side and, worse, the kids KNOW it.
Yep this has a lot to do with parenting. I’m a big believer in natural consequences and at the start of every school year I tell my kids’ teachers such and that if one of my kids forget their lunch/homework/coat/permission slip/etc to not call me to save them and that I will support the teachers in whatever their consequence may be, whether that is not being allowed outside at recess to getting a bad grade or whatever. They will not die from missing a meal or a field trip or being cold this one time but they are likely to learn their lesson and not make the same mistake again. Teachers have told me I’m largely alone in this approach and I’ve been called several times over the years requesting I deliver a snack or a jacket or missing homework. I can only imagine the backlash if a teacher actually yelled at a child.
Yeah but the recent ones have had no contacts because of Covid lockdown and so many colleges isolating them in their dorm rooms even when they were let back onto campus. And even without Covid, how many spend more time online than with people they can hang with IRL?