I am Jewish and support Israel, but I am sorry Bari, getting Condoleezza Rice or any one else from Bush Jr administration is not helping to build trust for anything.
Bush administration has lied us into Iraq war, we have wasted trillions of $$$, 1000s of Americans died and over 1 million of Iraqis, all based on a lie. By destroying Iraq we have, destroyed Irans biggest regional enemy.
We shouldn't under any case rehabilitate Condoleezza Rice or anyone who supported war in Iraq.
I have to agree. Ms. Rice, HRC, Bush, Biden, Obama, there’s little difference besides virtue signaling and rhetoric. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Clinton, Obama, etc, with the consent of the feckless US Senate, made a mess of the Middle East, North Africa, and Latin America.
I realize this is mostly about resources and bails of cash, but it is becoming quite clear that US foreign policy and our intelligence operations does far more harm than good.
We say we value democracy, then undermine the democratic processes in our own nation, overthrow democratically elected governments overseas, and install cruel tyrants who will do the bidding of our oligarchs.
The US government, just like the Catholic Church, has ceded any morals authority to dictate what anyone should do.
Where is the call for breaking the ties that have historically been counter to Americanism and the core principles of Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness that this nation was founded upon?
We need to break this two party duopoly that is running the nation into the ground and undermining the freedom and safety of countless innocents abroad.
Bush and Obama were the tipping point. They’ve broken the nation. Both financially and spiritually.
Trump was the bull in the china shop, though amoral himself, has turned back the curtain to expose a deeply troubled elite that is gorging on the blood of the serfs and then laughing and telling them it’s their own fault.
I can like something he said or did, or even a policy or two. It’s okay. Free your mind. The system is broken. The Dems and the media laid the groundwork to fuel Trump’s ascendency to power.
If the Dems actually gave a fig about workers, they’d win overwhelmingly every time.
They are captured by the donors. It’s their corruption, incompetence and callousness that makes Trump have a shot at another term. It should be no contest, but it isn’t.
And I like a thing or two he did, as well as a thing or two my Democratic governor has done. I agree with you that many Democrats have somehow gotten onto these foolish notions that mean absolutely nothing to the vast majority of people.
I found Trump amusing when he snatched Herschel Walker from under the noses of the NFL. Since then I've had no use for him. But in terms of shaking up foreign policy, sorry WAR policy, he was effective. I'm with Robert here.
Thank you! Please, only perfect people/politicians are be interviewed and consulted! C Rice has experience that few have. We all know there were mistakes in the Iraq war. You think Bari might want to know more about those mistakes... a view from the decision makers? Jesse! This is a time for Jews and their supporters to unite, defeat Hamas and soon enough Hezbollah and Iran. ALL resources should be used.
The problem is Rice was interviewed by John Stewart with Hillary Clinton recently and took no responsibility for the mistakes she made. Neither of the two women did. It was quite disgraceful.
I didn't ask about Iran. I asked if you were calling for war with Iran. Perhaps from your response, you feel that if Iran doesn't stop being, well, Iran, that they will FORCE us to attack them? Nice try.
After re-reading what I wrote, I said: time for Jews and their supporters to unite, defeat Hamas and soon enough Hezbollah and Iran. So yes. The problem will not go away until the problem is fixed.
Leezy doesn't call them mistakes. It's not a mistake to talk to the imperfect Rice, it's mistake not to press her harder for exactly what you ask about: WHY did we choose to make those "mistakes" and purposefully drive to war?
C Rice can defend herself. I remember many intelligence agencies thought Iraq had WMDs, Russia, France, Great Britain... if memory serves. In the rear view mirror the invasion was a big mistake, no doubt.
It was obvious to many at the time that the US Neocon class was purposefully driving to war based on lies and fearmongering. The UN inspectors were rating Iraq clean publicly. , Iraq had just had a major deliverable of information to the UN, and the UN declared it sufficient and clean, and we went in anyway citing our own BS evidence.
As history has recorded, the administration was simply looking for ways to justify it from January 2001, well before 9/11. This is not really debatable, the historical record shows well that it wasn't about them being mistaken, it was about them wanting to invade Iraq and after hitting Al Queda, pivoting to accomplish their goals by purposefully creating a narrative to misconstrue Iraq as part of the "War on Terror".
Obviously, it wasn't obvious to the majority of the public, which is why the war happened . It's also why Leezy and her colleagues were extra evil, because they purposefully snowed their own public to achieve nefarious ends.
It was these ideals that led to the creation of the FP.
It’s insane how antithetical to this premise many of the comment sections are on the articles.
Many folks come here for bias confirmation, and when something deviates from their echo chamber, they become unwired. You would think they would have some self awareness.
It is something we all struggle with. I admit that I too would have my limits and my mind only expands so far.
I struggle, too. I have to remind myself that I do not want to be in an echo chamber; I actually hope to learn something new each day. Something that increases my awareness and understanding.
I just would like to put it back out here, this is Raziel's OP comment that you are declaring "unwired" and a call for silencing or not talking to Rice. I see it as neither: "
Raziel
Oct 14
I am Jewish and support Israel, but I am sorry Bari, getting Condoleezza Rice or any one else from Bush Jr administration is not helping to build trust for anything.
Bush administration has lied us into Iraq war, we have wasted trillions of $$$, 1000s of Americans died and over 1 million of Iraqis, all based on a lie. By destroying Iraq we have, destroyed Irans biggest regional enemy.
We shouldn't under any case rehabilitate Condoleezza Rice or anyone who supported war in Iraq."
I fail to see how if someone does get interviewed, providing considered criticism of them as Raziel does becomes in your eyes an "unwired" call for silencing the person. I call BS.
How can a person who got us in this mess able to provide any insight how to fix it. We Americans need to start holding our politicians accountable, if you make a such disastrous mistake, then double down then you have no authority to give further input.
By giving anyone from Bush Admin pass, we are effectively doubling down on the insanity they have caused. I Bush and his cronies had any human decency, they would have withdrawn from political life altogether, and not be siting in Boards of Thinktanks, and still trying to infuence politics.
Or why not listen to it and then be free to comment about how BS it is for Bari to bring it here like it's logical to follow Rice's input in today's circumstances. Raziel is providing considered criticism, just as worthy of voicing as the interview itself.
She can talk all she wants. Humans with brains, who don't like being lied to--resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths--shouldn't be interested in interviewing her or listening to the interview. She lost any claim to talk about anything related to foreign policy like Harvey Weinstein has lost any claim to work in Hollywood.
You want Bush and Cheney interviewed too? Wait, let's get Reagan and ask him to describe how trickle-down economics work. And Nixon, to discuss integrity. And Clinton, to discuss marital fidelity.
OP didn't say that. Never said anything about not interviewing her or letting her speak. I think we needed to talk to her and interview her and simply ask her real questions about her record supporting the Trimuvirate of Evil. Then we can learn how not to be horrible human beings who create war with lies and never even own mistakes, instead doubling down as in this interview by saying that she owns "leading from fear". Clown show. Let's let her talk, just not about using her evil example in the circumstances of today's events.
Hey, here's a great idea, we could have Blinken go to the UN and lie about a bunch of shit so we can go to war with Iran! Should we be asking her how to do that, or how she can possibly defend what she and her administration did that was similar?
Spot on. I recommend reading “War is a Racket” by General Smedley Butler. My post on Tuesday will highlight the most poignant parts of that essay, which is even more relevant today than it was when published in 1935.
I think the point here is to bring two both points of view into focus. Condi and Packer. It's smart. If you eliminate one voice simply because you don't agree with it (for whatever reason) the other voice loses legitimacy. Just my thoughts, and why I subscribed to Bari. :)
This sounds like the "both sides" crap spouted by the NYT and WaPo. Sure, find an alternate voice to Packer. But can it be a voice with at least a shred of credibility?
"Bush administration has lied us into Iraq war, we have wasted trillions of $$$, 1000s of Americans died and over 1 million of Iraqis, all based on a lie. By destroying Iraq we have, destroyed Irans biggest regional enemy."
------------
Thank You! Someone is bringing some LOGIC into this situation. If we are not careful, we are about to go down the same rabbit hole as if we didn't learn anything.
People will try to justify it by saying, "we must do this" or "we must do that," no realizing we had the same emotional thinking 22 years ago and then realized, "hmm, maybe we should have handled that differently."
I'd post a link to an article I wrote, but don't want to spam the comments lol
If the Free Press was about ONLY having individuals who align exactly with us, then -- what's the point? That's what the mainstream media does. This is different. We should welcome all people into the fold so we can understand different perspectives and make up our own minds without being fed what one organization decides we should hear (to keep shareholders happy and revenues flowing). I hate when universities ban speakers (like at Berkeley)-- it's like they are afraid. Ms. Rice has a perspective that I welcome hearing, even if I disagreed wholeheartedly with going into Iraq.
Raziel didn't say we shouldn't have Rice on FP. She simply pointed out that doing so makes exactly no case for what Bari is trying to use it for, because Ms. Rice was a public official in an administration that was a Triumvirate of Evil and lied us into war.
I think it's perfectly fair criticism and it's not at all calling for censorship or cancelling of Rice to say "why bother having Ms. Rice on here, she has no ability to convince us of anything because she abandoned all morals while in office." It's certainly very far from saying "she should not speak". It's saying "I put no stock in her words".
Why? because 20+ years ago she was in the Bush administration? In fact, I think she is someone I would like to hear from. I'm sure her perspectives have changed since then-- like many people. (NOTE Robert McNamara/Vietnam). You can disagree but let's not jump to judgment before she opens her mouth.
Because Ms. Rice was a public official in an administration that was a Triumvirate of Evil and lied us into war. Proven liars are helpful in no conversations. Juries readily discount testimony of unreliable witnesses every day.
I think you might be a bit naive if you think that most public officials are 'without sin'. I hate to be cynical but history has proven again and again that lies or half-truths are more the norm. Some individuals may have lied because they don't know the whole truth; others may life for more nefarious reasons. Others lie because they think the ends justify the means.
The United States voting population reduced George Bush to the lowest approval of this century as the info came out about the lies leading to the Iraq war. They voted for Obama over McCain in part specifically as an anti-war vote. The lesson is taught in textbooks; Colin Powell called it "a lasting blot on his record". It is an absolutely well-accepted infamous case of government misleading its people. And you think I'm the naive one.
How soon we forget. Multiple nations, not thralls of the US, believed Iraq had WMD. The US Senate and House were given most of the intelligence data upon which the administration relied for the decision to invade. Only when no WMD was found did the Democrats seize upon a political stick to wield against the administration. The contortions they went through to justify their switch were weird but, given the comments here, effective.
Did it turn out to be the wrong decision? Yes. Was it a lie? No. Were the consequences bad? The Iraqis and the world are shut of Saddam at a huge cost. Even given Saddam's previous conduct (nerve gas on Kurds, an active nuclear program, depraved policies against his citizens), for the US I'm inclined to believe yes, especially because of the wide split engendered by the skillful use of the political stick.
Was it a lie, "no"? OMG. It was transparently false from the start.
You forget or never knew that because of the hullabaloo, the UN sent in a special investigative team in late 2002, let by Hans Blix, who did a lot of saber rattling towards Hussein and made a lot of public statements that he should not play games. Blix called him out on playing games in the past - but then during his inspection found that there wasn't significant game playing to deceive them, and that Hussein was clean.
The UN made serious demands on disclosure from Hussein, and he released much more information than ever in the past - because he didn't want to get invaded either. And then we invaded anyway.
We did that because the decision to invade was made in Jan 2001 when Bush ordered his team to find a way to take Saddam out. That is on the historical record, as attested by members of his Cabinet. They just needed to make up the justification. And they did. The "intelligence" you cite that was shared - the things that weren't shared were purposefully set aside, including that both the CIA and the German's intelligence service had determined that the sources for WMD claims were unreliable individuals.
It was transparent enough that half of the countries that went to Afghanistan refused to participate. That should tell you that it was more than a basic mistake - the hawks in the US and UK simply won the political argument, mostly by conflating everything with "terrorism" and 9/11, which is even more disgusting.
I'm stunned you think it was the Dem's propaganda that fooled the people. The people, especially our men and women who went to fight and found out how vacuous the logic was when they got there, simply saw through the original propaganda from the Triumvirate of Evil and their enablers such as Rice and Powell.
I think your assessment that Sadam Hussain cooperated is incorrect. Also, Iraq was a threat to US interests before Bush became president; after all, he'd invaded Kuwait, threatened to invade Saudi Arabia, hadn't renounced his extravagant claims to other countries oil, and was financing terror. You don't address the vote in the Congress supporting invasion; I don't view either party as a herd of sheep. Your evidence that half of the Afghanistan allies didn't participate in Iraq disregards two elements; Germany and France were pushing to resume trade with Iraq and Afghanistan was a NATO operation which Iraq wasn't.
In my judgment, the invasion was a rational decision supported by partial information. You cannot disregard the fact that Democrats supported the invasion and played it hard politically once it wasn't a success. How soon we forget.
Your point would make sense in a world where we didn't have perfect info, but we got the answer key after invading: there was nothing there. He said he had nothing; Hans Blix, after saying "you better cooperate for real" then said "he generally cooperated and there was nothing" then we invaded and there was nothing.
I can see that in your judgment that it was the case that the invasion was rational. I merely conclude that you don't have good judgment in these matters. NATO didn't participate because they collectively have better judgment, as evidenced by results.
Congress voted in favor because of the purposeful conflation with proper responses to 9/11. Not that complex. We were collectively stupid, and Bush and co were objectively evil in part because they purposefully snowed Congress and the people.
You are so wrong about all of this. Hans Blix and the IAEA never said anything even close to "Iraq is clean". After the Gulf War, when it was found that Iraq had mad surprising progress on weapons programs, they submitted to an inspection regime. In 2002 Iraq denied access to several sites. Numerous warnings were given, but to no avail. Yes, German and France (the former a chief weapons provider prior to the Gulf War, the latter a violator of the UN Oil for Food programme) were opposed to the invasion for self-interested purposes. Your whole view is totally skewed and wrong-headed.
My view is the view of the American public in retrospect. They lied us to war.
Your view has no evidence. My view has evidence like that above and this: "Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld saw Iraq through the prism of status and reputation, variously arguing in February and July 2001 that ousting Saddam would “enhance US credibility and influence throughout the region” and “demonstrate what US policy is all about”.
Right? She IS the face of evil. Remember 300,000 dead children being "worth it" to ths admin she served?? Those were lots and lots of little girls and boys just like your own. Do you think their parents loved them any less than you love yours?
I'm going to reserve judgement myself until I listen to see if Rice is talking about the errors they made, and admitting the errors they made including the issues you pointed out. Because if that is the case, we would want to know how to avoid those same errors.
I remember Ehud Barack, who was among other things a member of the raid on Beirut—one of the best special operations ever—saying “I’ve been a soldier all my life, and there is no military solution to this.”
I agree. This is a propaganda war war, and until the Western media starts telling the truth, the best that can be accomplished is keeping the pot from boiling over—if you are an Israeli—and keeping it on low boil if you are a Hamas leader who makes money off of all this; or who, worse, genuinely believes the destruction of the Jews is possible without the destruction of the whole of the refugees.; or worst of all, who believes that mass suicide is warranted if they can just “get” tgeir enemies.
I suppose all three types exist, but all would be weakened by a generalized fidelity to truth.
Aren't you the guy who posted the cultural sadeism link yesterday? If so, 1) it was very thought provoking and 2) I think you should post it again in this thread. It is not a simple read but I think it rang very true to me. Despite the bitchin' and moanin' about echo chambers and your--just-seeking-confirmation-bias and the you-just-don't-like-people-who-disagree-with-you as they clutch their pearls over either your opinion or they way you expressed it, I think we (TFP readers and commenters) all have more in common than not, barring a couple of notable exceptions. ICBW but I think we are seeking the why and how this particular place and time. I found your paper very helpful as to the philosophy. As I find Rob Henderson's luxury belief theory helpful as to the psychology. I discovered both of you on TFP. That's why I am here.
My blog is called Moderates United. I think most people are sane and want basically the same things—freedom from daily pain, a sense of safety, a sense of purpose, and a connection to a community that understands and values them. Left alone I think most of us would make common cause and fix our problems in varied creative ways.
But we are not left alone. If people tell dog lovers that this group over here hates dogs and people who live dogs, then even if it is not true the spontaneous emotionality that would come out makes it hard to listen for the dog lovers and outrage hard to manage for those falsely accused. If they then commence yelling at each other without any effirts at mutual understanding, then a whole has been broken, and cynical manipulators can push both sides in directions they would not have otherwise chosen.
Simone de Beauvoirs comments are particularly enlightening.
None of this is new. NVA troops and their proxies committed atrocities in Vietnam every bit as bad, and perhaps even worse, than what Hamas just committed. But our media refused to report on them, then and even now.
I’m a conservative that voted for and at the time supported those war mongers. You make such a valid point and I am ashamed I didn’t learn more about the Bush/Cheney machinery before I pulled that lever. God bless your people and the strength and the resolve of the Israelis
For an excellent discussion, the best I’ve heard so far on this, listen to Efrat Fenigson on The Dark Horse podcast. Very brave, insightful journalist.
I think at root the conflicts in Israel continue because, and only because. of Useful Idiots in Western media and the academic environments whose propaganda births and nurtures their Very Bad Ideas.
Israel can't and should not grant the Right of Return, which is really the core demand, which amounts to "Let's pretend the 1948 War didn't happen, we didn't root for the other side, the other side didn't lose, and we didn't leave in the meantime while rooting for them. Let's also pretend it is 1948 and we get a reset again, so we can work out better plans for killing all of you that will work this time."
Israel really can't give any more land back without creating a security nightmare. So there is really nothing they can do. There are no concessions they can make, and in practice the '48 refugees don't want any. They want to kill all the Jews in Israel, and go back to 1948.
Obviously, the Israelis cannot grant this, and the refugees cannot force it. Israel is much too powerful to be conquered militarily, particularly since it has nukes and if it had to would unquestionably use them.
So why don't the '48 refugees simply accept a peace deal? This is the billion dollar question. Their children would live better lives, this would lead immediately to economic progress, and in terms of what is physically possible, that is the shortest and best path to getting it.
But their leaders benefit from the situation. Every time they initiate violence and Israel responds, there is a chorus of support in Western media. If a '48 refugee punches an Israel in the nose, it only becomes news if the Israeli punches him back. The rest they don't care about.
If you doubt this, just look at the coverage of the one of the most horrific Horroristic--there is a neologism for you, Horrorism, which is terrorism with decapitated babies--attacks ever. Somehow the focus is STILL on the bombs that seem to have been dropped arbitrarily and for no reason.
So in my view, starting violence and creating violence in response gets people in the West to send money. Various governments send money to the Gazan and West Bank governments. These governments are corrupt, and siphon off much money like Zelensky does.
And the two can be usefully compared. Zelensky is sending tens of thousands of Ukrainian men into a meat grinder or shooting gallery, where they cannot hope either to gain ground or even survive. Why? He is being told to do this by the people sending him money. And if he stops getting money, he stops being able to fund the posh lifestyle that he and his friends have come to enjoy.
There is every reason to suspect the same of no doubt low grade charming and persuasive sociopaths who live in Qatar and elsewhere, whose mansions are funded by money that was sent to "help Palestinians". War is business. And their business is funded by Western governments that are duped by Western media, which refuses to even attempt moral clarity, honest history, or accurate reporting.
They’ve been brainwashed. It starts in earliest childhood. If you want to take the time, there are some good articles on the racist filth they teach their kids, starting before they can speak. They have anti-Jew cartoons and Muppet equivalents. Tgey grow up learning that martrys are heroes.
If it is a culture of death, it is one that has been created by conscious policy. No one is born, I dont think, a partisan of death. Babies and toddlers dont hate. They are simply sponges, who soak in what is around them, and in most cases try to make their parents proud.
It is a culture of death, but what the vast majority of non-Muslims do not understand is that the "religion" of militant/extremist/fundamentalist Muslims is a RELIGION OF DEATH. They cannot be reasoned out of it or appealed to on humanitarian grounds or bribed out of it with offers of anything. There is NOTHING that will pacify them. It's not just Israel they want gone, it is EVERYONE of ANY faith other than Islam. They say, and you can see and hear them on videos if you look, that The Prophet demands an Islamic world, with "infidels" allowed to live only in subjugation.
The children could be saved if they were taken away from their culture very, very early, but the adults cannot be reasoned or bargained with. They have to be kept in check by force.
It's very hard for most of us raised in civilized cultures to understand. I am not an expert on Islam by any means, but my family lived in Pakistan for two years, and it made a believer out of me.
Good points. I would be willing to wager that 99% of the Americans who participated in the pro Palestinian rallies yesterday do not understand anything about Islam. They likely have not read the Quran (in translation), they could not tell you the five pillars, and they certainly don’t understand the concept of jihad.
But they have opinions... just not based on any actual knowledge or facts. And they vote.
Oh, yes, they are ignorant, and they have opinions, and they vote. I lost a friend of decades over her freak-out about "what De Santis is doing to education" and my response. She told me "I know you know more than I do, and I can't back up my position, but . . . ." And I cannot say anything to my 47-year old daughter without her pulling away and saying, "Mom, please." She has also admitted she knows nothing and cannot back up her opinions, which are really just feelings. It's hard for me to comprehend.
I hear you. I wonder how many of us active on Substack have that same story to tell? I have lost almost all my old friends, and with what few I retain, we cannot talk about any “real” topics. I am not really a person for small talk and chitchat, so this has been particularly disorienting.
My oldest friend from grad school recently said that he “had” to move out of Florida because DeSantis is a “fascist” and it wasn’t “safe” for his son (now described as his daughter) to visit him there. (He moved to the urban center of Chicago, which CLEARLY isn’t “safe” for anyone!). Honestly, if it all weren’t so morally bankrupt and sad, I would have to laugh.
Another old friend from law school days said she couldn’t possibly visit me in the US because she is a gay woman (always was) and it’s not safe for gays in the USA. This is absolute claptrap,twaddle, panicky, baby idiocy. The US has millions of gay people living fabulous lives, thank you very much! The vast majority of Americans wholeheartedly approve of gay marriage, and the only gay bashing that takes place nowadays is in “ethnic” communities. I was thinking this morning that I am culturally stateless. Those who are similar to me in their sociocultural backgrounds and education are totally woke, and I am not. I suppose we could restrict ourselves to talk about sports or the weather, but really, what kind of friendship is that?
And to cap it all off, a childhood friend --a Jewish guy whose mother was a Holocaust survivor, if you can believe it-- two days after the massacre in Israel sent me a video of people doing the tango, with no other comments. WTF?
People have questioned whether I’m fabricating these absurdities, but seriously, my imagination is just not that good, or I’d have a career as a bestselling novelist/screenwriter! Ya can’t make this sh*t up!
You know the rest. The Long March through the institutions is complete. If ever you had a doubt, this week should have put it to rest once and for all.
Most of those 99% couldn't find Israel on a map any sooner than they could find Ukraine. FFS, half probably couldn't find their own state on a U.S. map.
Our education system -- which used to actually impart our children with the knowledge and skills to get through life and hopefully achieve success within it -- long ago abandoned academics in lieu of Neo-Marxist brainwashing. A college degree issued today doesn't say "I'm educated" it says "I've been indoctrinated."
The logical conclusions from that are that appeasement feeds war and containment and the curtailment of practical hope of achieving their objectived feeds peace.
Muslims were largely quiescent until the latter half of the twentieth century, when Communist agents decided that resurrecting narratives of glorious bloody deaths within a context of anti-Western narratives suited their own ideas of their own global conquest.
These people are tools. They will never win. But they have shown themselves to be very willing to fight as proxies with very little coaxing.
The supposed perfection of the Koran has in general both prevented most liberalization in their societies, and contributed directly to ignorance outside specific technical fields, like engineering.
I am glad you specified extremist factions because cannot say that I think Islam is uncivilized. I do think it is incompatible with Western values though.
One must recognize the difference between the extremist factions and those who do for the most part share our desire for peace, our desire to treat individuals with respect, and our love for our spouses and children. I think both the Bible (the Old Testament is also part of the Jewish Bible) and the Koran refer to God/Allah as sometimes fierce and punitive and sometimes gentle and loving. More Christians and Jews than Muslims see the gentler parts of their holy books as a guide to living, while understanding that the more violent parts are not to be taken literally.
I do agree that to a great extent, Islam is incompatible with Western values and with life in a post–Dark Ages world.
I agree. As far as what one takes from their religion I think that is a question of the individual's personality or character to an extent. So I believe there are peace-loving Muslims. But it is my understanding that Mohammed said that Jews and Christians both got the word of God wrong. And that he was sent to correct that. That in and of itself causes disdain and intolerance.
All of what you say can be verified at www.memri.org .
When the media showcases Palestinian women wailing, and clutching after their dead family members they are really displaying their anti-Israel bias, and are attempting to influence their consumers that Israel is responsible for the violence and death. Never do they report on how those grieving women have beed brainwashed by their leaders.
1000% agree. I don’t think the masses understand the concept of narratives and paradigms and how these are mental constructs that repeat themselves over and over until we 1) become aware of them and then 2) work to break them
I will add that it is long past the time to ask "Cui bono?".
To my main suspect, I will add the varied Arab governments that are able to distract from their own failures and tyranny by screaming constantly about "the Jews". Iran might be one example, although I think even that ruse stopped working and they have regressed to straight up mass arrests, torture, and execution.
What is little known is that the Arabs who fled the war their brethren created in 1948, which it seems reasonable to assume they in general supported, had counterparts who stayed. Those Arab Muslims even now constitute perhaps a fifth of Israel's population. In some respects they are second class citizens. They do not enjoy all the rights Jews possess, or so I understand, not least because many of them to some degree support the refugees and so are not fully trusted; but even so, they have more civil rights that Arabs in any other Arab nation, such as Syria or Saudi Arabia.
Secondly, I assume arms dealers benefit from this conflict, as they benefit from any conflict. It's like Big Pharma: all disease is good business, and here all shooting is good business.
But in both cases such external parties cannot directly force the leaders of the '48 Refugees to reject every honest peace deal, break every treaty they sign, commit atrocities without provocation, and to in every possible way work to ensure the continued immiseration of those for whom they have fought to speak, in some cases with literal bullets, making them more or less Arab Mafiosi.
I literally think that five years of Western media reporting honestly would be enough for long term peace, because the profit motive would disappear. That's my Peace Plan.
You have captured the situation in your post aptly. I think instead of George Packer’s crap he wrote today, Bari should perhaps give you the slot you have much more clarity and understanding of the Israeli situation.
I wouldn’t say no, but I doubt I will get the chance to say yes.
I’ve been on the internet a long time, and at some point I have said something somewhere to piss off pretty much every member of humanity.
To my mind, writing for an audience you need to take into account ruins the fun of thinking openly without filters, which in the long run is in my view the shortest path to consistently reasonable and probably mostly accurate perception.
Its interesting, too, watching “nice” people learn to lie and dissimulate in real time. They have good tutors, so the transmogrification into full blown Leftists wont take long. Its a well worn path into a dark hole.
And if the path in is lies, the path out becomes harder the more egregious the lies, because speaking truth to past deceit requires a large dose of humility.
The morons protesting on campuses and in the streets, when confronted with the slaughter of children, deny it is happening.
Watch this video of a father talking about the murder of his 8 year old daughter and tell me that HAMAS and the protester supporting HAMAS aren't the face of evil. This is hard to watch.
I saw a reporter confront one of the little snots, a young woman, protesting for HAMAS. The reporter said HAMAS is killing babies and little children. She said, "They are not!"
Her response didn't surprise me at all. I have said many times on this BBS, the left hates history and facts. They live in an ignorant left wing fantasy world full of hate..
The goal is perfect moral sanctity. They share an obsession with purity with the Nazis.
The real world ia complicated and all decisions rarely lack an almost equally good alternative.
But they want to live in a fantasy world in which doing easy things—like shouting slogans they didnt originate—counts as heroism and all of them get to go to bed either amazed at their own goodness, or infuriated at the unwillingnesd of the world to recognize and praise their amazing feats.
Its childish. I was at a Renaissance fair a few weekends where lots of people were wearing swords and playacting being basasses. I am very sure most or all of these people are horrified at this moment what ISRAEL is doing. Pretending is a form of lying and lying can easily be made habitual, particukarly by lazy weak people.
There currently probably are about 40,000 refugees remaining (all are at least 75 years old). The UN alone is giving more than $25,000 a year for the refugees, but they receive very little of it. The money goes to Hamas and Hizbollah.
When I am being optimally accurate I call them the descendants of the refugees, but that's a lot of words.
And yes, I think siphoning that money off is the game. It's a profitable racket, and I don't think the people at the top of it even live in Gaza or the West Bank. They have lieutenants to run things in those places.
Yes, descendants of a refugee are not refugees. Otherwise my children would be refugees, as my parents were both real refugees (from Nazi Germany in the 1930s).
Why? The Ukraine is run by corrupt kleptocrats. This does not make Russia innocent, but aa I understand the matter—the only thing I am sure of is that none of us know the whole story—they are in fact in the main “rescuing” ethnic Russians who want to be part of Russia.
As things stand, Russia has taken most of the territory it wants, fortified their lines, and is destroying, with much death, everything the Ukraine throws at them.
This is stupid. Russia was never trying to conquer all of Ukraine, never mind Western Europe.
We are sending them so much weaponry that is promotly destroyed it is hurting our OWN combat readiness. If I were China I would be paying the bills fir all of Ukraines lobbyists. And they may be, in addition to bribing Congress. And we have DOCUMENTED money they paid our President.
I may be. But has all this money, these armaments and Ukrainian deaths accomplished anything?
Is that not a reasonable question, particularly given the patent graft going on? Do you think at this point any Ukrainian parents are happy to see their children die in this lost cause? No parents are ever happy to lose their kids but this point the whole thing is a pointless slaughter that needs to end.
And Ukrainian soldiers and civilians treated like sacrificial.lambs at slaughter. I read that 2000 government officials were prevented recently from leaving.
I see many condemnations of Israel’s “cruel” treatment of Palestinians, but I want to hear real solutions. What can Israel do differently without compromising security? And why in the world should they stop building settlements in the hope of some theoretical peace deal that the Palestinians clearly do not want?
That is such a great point, and I would add that Israel gave back the Gaza Strip in a land for peace plan. The Gazans could govern themselves. And what happened? See what happened last Saturday. The people like Rice or Packer don't have to live with the consequences of their actions—the Israelis do. We should not run to past failures like Rice or listen to effete narcissists like Packer. Israel should follow the path that will work for them and not worry about the pain it will cause the enemy. Deep down, everyone in Gaza cheered and wanted Isreal dead. That needs to change before any peace, and sadly, you must break people of the habit rather than giving them peace offerings.
Hi Elizabeth! So I approach events (and ultimately history) from a conspiratorial perspective. I’d argue that we only get the “good” side of history and without looking at the conspiratorial nature, we’re only getting half the picture.
I say that to say that you make a great point in we “see celebrations.”
My point is this: who’s “showing” us these images? “Why” are they showing us these images? Is the point here to invoke an emotion in me, the viewer, so I support their mission?
Without this analysis, we simply follow along the narrative without logically looking at the situation.
I’m hoping this is making sense and here are a few articles for references to tie everything:
They are showing them to us. Just as any other group of people at a celebration, they pull out their phones and records themselves celebrating and upload it onto social media.
You nailed it and its simple. But deeper is the sick thinking that somehow Jews are not real people and killing them is justified. Some seriously sick thinking in the world.
Pulling war hungry neocon globalists like Condoleezza Rice into the discussion may not be the best look Bari. She's sharp, well informed and convincing, but keep in mind that she was also a huge part of the "yellowcake uranium from Niger" crew that was trotted out by the Bush administration to justify invading and occupying Iraq. Saddam Hussein was a tyrant and killer of his own people, but ask any family member who lost a loved one in Iraq if they think the US invasion was worth it......not to mention the 2.5 trillion it cost american tax payers. But hey.......at least ExxonMobile, 3 Chinese oil companies, & 2 Russian oil companies have a monopoly on the Iraqi oil fields today......so there's that.
That said, its clear you are emotional in your position and rightly so, but Rice is the wrong sounding board IMO.
Finally, when I read Zelensky state “It was very important not to be alone,” I almost laughed out loud. Zelensky has never given two sh*ts about Israel or peace in the middle east. If he didn't think that cuddling up to the Israel cause right now wouldn't get him another huge war chest of US taxpayer funds, you wouldn't hear a mouse fart out of the guy. Oh.......and I'm guessing his Azov commanders are not all that impressed with his new found friend.....just sayin.
To what point would we have to ask that, "wait, is the FP showing some propoganda?" I'm sure many follow Alex on Unreported Truths and I'm finding that a lot of reporters are choosing not to apply the same critical skills to covid to this topic.
So I don't believe TFP is posting any "propaganda", but clearly there is bias and I would almost expect that from Bari. She's passionate and unapologetic of her religion, the Jewish people/state and their safety. And rightly so, I must say.
I did read Berenson's stack last night. He has always been a level headed heterodox writer and I think makes strong points. I also listen to Dave Smiths 'Part Of The Problem' podcast. Like Alex, Dave makes solid arguments and is worth following IMO.
I can agree with this! It’s not “propaganda” per se, but a bias that would be expected. That’s fair! Thanks for that callout!
I just found this excellent Substack talking about: atrocity propaganda. Turns out the whole “they’re killing and rapping women and children” has been around for A WHILE:
Re: Zelensky - what would you propose him to do? Western governments have the option to not fund him. He has little power leverage over them - this idea that he is supposed to turn away foreign aid on a moral basis because of the taxpayer is laughable. Any leader would do the same. The responsibility lies with those giving aid, not with Zelensky.
He would be smart to negotiate a peace deal similar to what he had in March 2022 before Boris flushed it down the drain via the Biden administration. American will abandon continued funding and supplies in the not to distant future. Europe hasn't provided a fraction of what they should have even though its in their back yard. That won't change once the US piggybank goes empty. NATO is impotent and won't lift a finger. So instead of pushing his own people into the Russian meat grinder any further, he should end it. He's never going to give up aid on a moral basis ever........no corrupt leaders have ever done that, and he's no different. I never implied that & you clearly missed my point as to why he's now mysteriously interested in Israel's well being. He should give up b/c he's 110% going to lose regardless of how much funding he might get. So again, he should settle for peace.......he won't get back territory, but 50% of a buck is better than zero.
Sorry but I’m not going to lay blame on someone for trying to regain their sovereignty. That doesn’t mean Western allies are void of blame here And I understand why people would be upset with tax payer funding.
He’s corrupt because he’s accepting aid? Of course he is going to accept aid and supplies - that’s just common sense. “No, we don’t want billions of dollars in aid and ammunition and artillery!”.
Has nothing to do with morals. Ukraine has a long history of corruption, no doubt, but to suggest that a leader in a war should refuse aid based on some moral compass you believe he should have is… completely out of touch with reality.
I have nothing but contempt for the George Packers of the world. Yes, Isreal, you have a festering problem with a group that wants to kill all of you, shoots rockets into your country, and hides among civilians, but let's tie your hands when dealing with the existential threat. In TGIF, one blurb was on the idiot progressive professors and the idiocy that spews from them. George is a student who more than likely learned at their feet.
Hamas, when planning this assault, counted on the George Packer's of the world. We can act with impunity and hide out. Israel will do what they always do, hit a few buildings, and then pull back because if they come after us, the cost will be too much for the George Packers of the world to handle. And the George Packers are the world's most intelligent people, and if their sensibilities get hurt, we win.
Sadly, the people of Gaza did nothing to create or stop this, but they are in the middle of it. Who will be to blame? Hamas. When civilians die, its because of Hamas; when they starve or die of disease, it's because of Hamas. Every last member of Hamas must either have a conversion to modernity or die. It is for the people of Gaza to see the futility of acting like barbarians and change. We must not go to the Bush years but rather the Truman years. The Allies crushed the Germans and Japanese. Yes, we killed civilians, but those left created new societies from the old ones. For any new peace to happen, the same pattern must occur. Hamas must be utterly destroyed, and the people who are left must see that the old way is no longer viable and change. This policy might hurt George Packer's feelings but is the only path forward.
The most important lesson we can take from 9 11 is that governments will use events to convince people that they need less freedom and the government needs more power.
Trump was masterfully resolving this issue isolating and diminishing Iran and sidelining the Palestinians until a fraudulent election removed him. The uniparty of war is now firmly back in control
In 2006, just as Israel was about to annihilate Hezbollah in Lebanon, Condoleeza Rice swooped in to impose a peace deal. This stupid policy allowed the terrorists to retrench and rebuild.
Then there was Iraq.
Rice, who reminds her audience of her blackness in every speech, is done. She’s done more than enough damage for a lifetime.
Regarding Packer's article, it's hard to avoid killing Palestinian civilians in a gunfight when their terrorist husbands, fathers, and sons are hiding behind them in the midst of it... Terrorists choose not to be bound by the Geneva Convention. They should be treated according to their choices.
We should never have gone into Iraq. Saddam Hussein was a monster but then all of the Islamic dictators in the Middle East are monsters. It's what they do. And it has been that way for thousands of years.
Supposedly intelligence pointed to Hussein having WMDs. This intelligence was, I believe, credible.
Hussein had used, at least twice, nerve gas on the Kurds.
However, entering Iraq was like entering a snake pit.
There are no easy answers to complex problems. Nothing is black or white. The truth lies somewhere in between.
I like Rice. She is very smart and I believe a straight shooter.
Saddam Hussein wasn't Islamist, he and many other dictators we removed in middle east was secular dictator. We, by advice of our Saudi "fiends" have removed secular dictators that were fighting against Islamist in their countries. Biggest mistake we made, was listening to Saudis and other rich Theocracies in middle East
You are correct......he expelled, jailed & killed jailed Islamists by the thousands. If ya look back at post 9/11, we clearly invaded the wrong country. Our sites should have always been squarely on Saudi Arabia.
I take the Carole King approach: I've been to Canaan and I want to go back again. In my lifetime the only presidents (or alleged president) who didn't start a new war during their tenures were Dwight Eisenhower and Donald Trump; one understood in the most personal way what war means and the second understood that Continuous War is the most efficient way to convince a free people to give up their rights - and he was having none of it.
The Orange Man's first move was to announce to the world that his administration was "not interested in any regime changes," which meant that he could interact with foreign heads of state without their worrying he was going to have their literal heads via the usual CIA meddling. Where Condi fit in all that during the Bush and Shrub admins is still open to debate. I would like to see what she has to say though. Too bad about the lack of transcript. Onward. Other fish to fry....
Condi should keep in mind Jews were there before Christianity and Islam existed. And sure there are “descent” PA authorities but if they will not end Hamas et al then they have no intention of stopping the next attempted genocide.
I’m watching our own government already pressuring Israel for restraint.
But I hope Israel instead decimates enemies entirely.
I believe Condoleeza Rice has a fundamental grasp of the intricacies of middle east politics. I particularly appreciated her comment that the first thing on your mind after a horrific attack is not finding blame but keeping your people safe from further damage. I have always admired her.
In contrast to many of the commenters, I appreciated the interview with Dr. Rice. I heard her admit that they did not handle everything perfectly, but no one is perfect. I appreciated her thoughtful perspective on middle eastern history past and present. Based on her intelligence and experience, I think her opinions are beneficial. She led during a very difficult time, and it is easy for people to second guess those actions 20+ years later. Based on many of the comments here, I guess most of the hateful, bloviating people didn’t listen to the interview.
During the Bush years, I was adamantly against anyone in his administration because I was anti-war. I evolved and I like Condeleeza Rice. Thank you for interviewing her on Honestly.
There can be no peace as long as one side cares about humanity and its people and the other see their own people as useful for being killed and hiding among them as targets to further the worldwide propaganda of the idiots in news organizations.
One cares for its people and the other could care less. There is no moral ground for peace.
I am Jewish and support Israel, but I am sorry Bari, getting Condoleezza Rice or any one else from Bush Jr administration is not helping to build trust for anything.
Bush administration has lied us into Iraq war, we have wasted trillions of $$$, 1000s of Americans died and over 1 million of Iraqis, all based on a lie. By destroying Iraq we have, destroyed Irans biggest regional enemy.
We shouldn't under any case rehabilitate Condoleezza Rice or anyone who supported war in Iraq.
I have to agree. Ms. Rice, HRC, Bush, Biden, Obama, there’s little difference besides virtue signaling and rhetoric. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Clinton, Obama, etc, with the consent of the feckless US Senate, made a mess of the Middle East, North Africa, and Latin America.
I realize this is mostly about resources and bails of cash, but it is becoming quite clear that US foreign policy and our intelligence operations does far more harm than good.
We say we value democracy, then undermine the democratic processes in our own nation, overthrow democratically elected governments overseas, and install cruel tyrants who will do the bidding of our oligarchs.
The US government, just like the Catholic Church, has ceded any morals authority to dictate what anyone should do.
Where is the call for breaking the ties that have historically been counter to Americanism and the core principles of Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness that this nation was founded upon?
We need to break this two party duopoly that is running the nation into the ground and undermining the freedom and safety of countless innocents abroad.
Bush and Obama were the tipping point. They’ve broken the nation. Both financially and spiritually.
Trump was the bull in the china shop, though amoral himself, has turned back the curtain to expose a deeply troubled elite that is gorging on the blood of the serfs and then laughing and telling them it’s their own fault.
well put!!
Robert-- Trump. Really? You give him more credit than he deserves. And FYI-- he IS one of those elites he so hates.
I can like something he said or did, or even a policy or two. It’s okay. Free your mind. The system is broken. The Dems and the media laid the groundwork to fuel Trump’s ascendency to power.
If the Dems actually gave a fig about workers, they’d win overwhelmingly every time.
They are captured by the donors. It’s their corruption, incompetence and callousness that makes Trump have a shot at another term. It should be no contest, but it isn’t.
And I like a thing or two he did, as well as a thing or two my Democratic governor has done. I agree with you that many Democrats have somehow gotten onto these foolish notions that mean absolutely nothing to the vast majority of people.
I found Trump amusing when he snatched Herschel Walker from under the noses of the NFL. Since then I've had no use for him. But in terms of shaking up foreign policy, sorry WAR policy, he was effective. I'm with Robert here.
Doesn’t mean she doesn’t have good insight.
Stop with this idea that no one is allowed to talk.
Thank you! Please, only perfect people/politicians are be interviewed and consulted! C Rice has experience that few have. We all know there were mistakes in the Iraq war. You think Bari might want to know more about those mistakes... a view from the decision makers? Jesse! This is a time for Jews and their supporters to unite, defeat Hamas and soon enough Hezbollah and Iran. ALL resources should be used.
The problem is Rice was interviewed by John Stewart with Hillary Clinton recently and took no responsibility for the mistakes she made. Neither of the two women did. It was quite disgraceful.
100%
Frank-- absolutely.
Did you just call for war with Iran?
Iran will make that decision.
I didn't ask about Iran. I asked if you were calling for war with Iran. Perhaps from your response, you feel that if Iran doesn't stop being, well, Iran, that they will FORCE us to attack them? Nice try.
After re-reading what I wrote, I said: time for Jews and their supporters to unite, defeat Hamas and soon enough Hezbollah and Iran. So yes. The problem will not go away until the problem is fixed.
Leezy doesn't call them mistakes. It's not a mistake to talk to the imperfect Rice, it's mistake not to press her harder for exactly what you ask about: WHY did we choose to make those "mistakes" and purposefully drive to war?
C Rice can defend herself. I remember many intelligence agencies thought Iraq had WMDs, Russia, France, Great Britain... if memory serves. In the rear view mirror the invasion was a big mistake, no doubt.
It was obvious to many at the time that the US Neocon class was purposefully driving to war based on lies and fearmongering. The UN inspectors were rating Iraq clean publicly. , Iraq had just had a major deliverable of information to the UN, and the UN declared it sufficient and clean, and we went in anyway citing our own BS evidence.
As history has recorded, the administration was simply looking for ways to justify it from January 2001, well before 9/11. This is not really debatable, the historical record shows well that it wasn't about them being mistaken, it was about them wanting to invade Iraq and after hitting Al Queda, pivoting to accomplish their goals by purposefully creating a narrative to misconstrue Iraq as part of the "War on Terror".
https://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/
Obviously, it wasn't obvious to the majority of the public, which is why the war happened . It's also why Leezy and her colleagues were extra evil, because they purposefully snowed their own public to achieve nefarious ends.
let's just agree to disagree
Agreed. What are we to be-- a news organization that only allows people we agree with to speak?
It was these ideals that led to the creation of the FP.
It’s insane how antithetical to this premise many of the comment sections are on the articles.
Many folks come here for bias confirmation, and when something deviates from their echo chamber, they become unwired. You would think they would have some self awareness.
It is something we all struggle with. I admit that I too would have my limits and my mind only expands so far.
I struggle, too. I have to remind myself that I do not want to be in an echo chamber; I actually hope to learn something new each day. Something that increases my awareness and understanding.
I just would like to put it back out here, this is Raziel's OP comment that you are declaring "unwired" and a call for silencing or not talking to Rice. I see it as neither: "
Raziel
Oct 14
I am Jewish and support Israel, but I am sorry Bari, getting Condoleezza Rice or any one else from Bush Jr administration is not helping to build trust for anything.
Bush administration has lied us into Iraq war, we have wasted trillions of $$$, 1000s of Americans died and over 1 million of Iraqis, all based on a lie. By destroying Iraq we have, destroyed Irans biggest regional enemy.
We shouldn't under any case rehabilitate Condoleezza Rice or anyone who supported war in Iraq."
I fail to see how if someone does get interviewed, providing considered criticism of them as Raziel does becomes in your eyes an "unwired" call for silencing the person. I call BS.
💯
How can a person who got us in this mess able to provide any insight how to fix it. We Americans need to start holding our politicians accountable, if you make a such disastrous mistake, then double down then you have no authority to give further input.
By giving anyone from Bush Admin pass, we are effectively doubling down on the insanity they have caused. I Bush and his cronies had any human decency, they would have withdrawn from political life altogether, and not be siting in Boards of Thinktanks, and still trying to infuence politics.
So the Bush administration got us into this mess? That’s an inane statement.
Just… don’t listen to the interview??
Or why not listen to it and then be free to comment about how BS it is for Bari to bring it here like it's logical to follow Rice's input in today's circumstances. Raziel is providing considered criticism, just as worthy of voicing as the interview itself.
Who knows more about this topic? Some people, but certainly not anyone commenting here
Do you feel the same way about Obama? He probably has more to do with this "mess" than anyone.
She can talk all she wants. Humans with brains, who don't like being lied to--resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths--shouldn't be interested in interviewing her or listening to the interview. She lost any claim to talk about anything related to foreign policy like Harvey Weinstein has lost any claim to work in Hollywood.
You want Bush and Cheney interviewed too? Wait, let's get Reagan and ask him to describe how trickle-down economics work. And Nixon, to discuss integrity. And Clinton, to discuss marital fidelity.
Here is a shocking revelation:
You don’t have to listen to the interviews!
Wild how that works.
I just want to make sure weak-minded individuals don't listen to her...again.
“I want to make sure people don’t listen to someone I disagree with”.
No need to infantilize anyone. Let people have their autonomy and make their own decisions.
If it wasn't weak-mindedness, please explain post-9/11 for us.
As is the case with many commenters, you are revealing more about weak-mindedness than you think.
So your comment is "I know you are, but what am I?"
Strong argument.
OP didn't say that. Never said anything about not interviewing her or letting her speak. I think we needed to talk to her and interview her and simply ask her real questions about her record supporting the Trimuvirate of Evil. Then we can learn how not to be horrible human beings who create war with lies and never even own mistakes, instead doubling down as in this interview by saying that she owns "leading from fear". Clown show. Let's let her talk, just not about using her evil example in the circumstances of today's events.
Hey, here's a great idea, we could have Blinken go to the UN and lie about a bunch of shit so we can go to war with Iran! Should we be asking her how to do that, or how she can possibly defend what she and her administration did that was similar?
I honestly don’t really care and am too tired to read all of this but continue to rant if you’d like. It can be therapeutic.
Enjoy your sleep!
Spot on. I recommend reading “War is a Racket” by General Smedley Butler. My post on Tuesday will highlight the most poignant parts of that essay, which is even more relevant today than it was when published in 1935.
100000% agree with this!!!! If people understood his story, people would see war COMPLETELY different!
I wanna post the link to an article on him as well, but don’t wanna spam folks lol
Butler won the Medal of honor three or four times. He refused the one he won at Veracruz.
I think the point here is to bring two both points of view into focus. Condi and Packer. It's smart. If you eliminate one voice simply because you don't agree with it (for whatever reason) the other voice loses legitimacy. Just my thoughts, and why I subscribed to Bari. :)
This sounds like the "both sides" crap spouted by the NYT and WaPo. Sure, find an alternate voice to Packer. But can it be a voice with at least a shred of credibility?
"Bush administration has lied us into Iraq war, we have wasted trillions of $$$, 1000s of Americans died and over 1 million of Iraqis, all based on a lie. By destroying Iraq we have, destroyed Irans biggest regional enemy."
------------
Thank You! Someone is bringing some LOGIC into this situation. If we are not careful, we are about to go down the same rabbit hole as if we didn't learn anything.
People will try to justify it by saying, "we must do this" or "we must do that," no realizing we had the same emotional thinking 22 years ago and then realized, "hmm, maybe we should have handled that differently."
I'd post a link to an article I wrote, but don't want to spam the comments lol
If the Free Press was about ONLY having individuals who align exactly with us, then -- what's the point? That's what the mainstream media does. This is different. We should welcome all people into the fold so we can understand different perspectives and make up our own minds without being fed what one organization decides we should hear (to keep shareholders happy and revenues flowing). I hate when universities ban speakers (like at Berkeley)-- it's like they are afraid. Ms. Rice has a perspective that I welcome hearing, even if I disagreed wholeheartedly with going into Iraq.
Raziel didn't say we shouldn't have Rice on FP. She simply pointed out that doing so makes exactly no case for what Bari is trying to use it for, because Ms. Rice was a public official in an administration that was a Triumvirate of Evil and lied us into war.
I think it's perfectly fair criticism and it's not at all calling for censorship or cancelling of Rice to say "why bother having Ms. Rice on here, she has no ability to convince us of anything because she abandoned all morals while in office." It's certainly very far from saying "she should not speak". It's saying "I put no stock in her words".
Why? because 20+ years ago she was in the Bush administration? In fact, I think she is someone I would like to hear from. I'm sure her perspectives have changed since then-- like many people. (NOTE Robert McNamara/Vietnam). You can disagree but let's not jump to judgment before she opens her mouth.
Because Ms. Rice was a public official in an administration that was a Triumvirate of Evil and lied us into war. Proven liars are helpful in no conversations. Juries readily discount testimony of unreliable witnesses every day.
I think you might be a bit naive if you think that most public officials are 'without sin'. I hate to be cynical but history has proven again and again that lies or half-truths are more the norm. Some individuals may have lied because they don't know the whole truth; others may life for more nefarious reasons. Others lie because they think the ends justify the means.
The United States voting population reduced George Bush to the lowest approval of this century as the info came out about the lies leading to the Iraq war. They voted for Obama over McCain in part specifically as an anti-war vote. The lesson is taught in textbooks; Colin Powell called it "a lasting blot on his record". It is an absolutely well-accepted infamous case of government misleading its people. And you think I'm the naive one.
Condi’s advice to Israel would be to attack Iceland. She’s pretty sure they have WMDs.
I second that emotion.
How soon we forget. Multiple nations, not thralls of the US, believed Iraq had WMD. The US Senate and House were given most of the intelligence data upon which the administration relied for the decision to invade. Only when no WMD was found did the Democrats seize upon a political stick to wield against the administration. The contortions they went through to justify their switch were weird but, given the comments here, effective.
Did it turn out to be the wrong decision? Yes. Was it a lie? No. Were the consequences bad? The Iraqis and the world are shut of Saddam at a huge cost. Even given Saddam's previous conduct (nerve gas on Kurds, an active nuclear program, depraved policies against his citizens), for the US I'm inclined to believe yes, especially because of the wide split engendered by the skillful use of the political stick.
Was it a lie, "no"? OMG. It was transparently false from the start.
You forget or never knew that because of the hullabaloo, the UN sent in a special investigative team in late 2002, let by Hans Blix, who did a lot of saber rattling towards Hussein and made a lot of public statements that he should not play games. Blix called him out on playing games in the past - but then during his inspection found that there wasn't significant game playing to deceive them, and that Hussein was clean.
The UN made serious demands on disclosure from Hussein, and he released much more information than ever in the past - because he didn't want to get invaded either. And then we invaded anyway.
We did that because the decision to invade was made in Jan 2001 when Bush ordered his team to find a way to take Saddam out. That is on the historical record, as attested by members of his Cabinet. They just needed to make up the justification. And they did. The "intelligence" you cite that was shared - the things that weren't shared were purposefully set aside, including that both the CIA and the German's intelligence service had determined that the sources for WMD claims were unreliable individuals.
It was transparent enough that half of the countries that went to Afghanistan refused to participate. That should tell you that it was more than a basic mistake - the hawks in the US and UK simply won the political argument, mostly by conflating everything with "terrorism" and 9/11, which is even more disgusting.
I'm stunned you think it was the Dem's propaganda that fooled the people. The people, especially our men and women who went to fight and found out how vacuous the logic was when they got there, simply saw through the original propaganda from the Triumvirate of Evil and their enablers such as Rice and Powell.
I think your assessment that Sadam Hussain cooperated is incorrect. Also, Iraq was a threat to US interests before Bush became president; after all, he'd invaded Kuwait, threatened to invade Saudi Arabia, hadn't renounced his extravagant claims to other countries oil, and was financing terror. You don't address the vote in the Congress supporting invasion; I don't view either party as a herd of sheep. Your evidence that half of the Afghanistan allies didn't participate in Iraq disregards two elements; Germany and France were pushing to resume trade with Iraq and Afghanistan was a NATO operation which Iraq wasn't.
In my judgment, the invasion was a rational decision supported by partial information. You cannot disregard the fact that Democrats supported the invasion and played it hard politically once it wasn't a success. How soon we forget.
Your point would make sense in a world where we didn't have perfect info, but we got the answer key after invading: there was nothing there. He said he had nothing; Hans Blix, after saying "you better cooperate for real" then said "he generally cooperated and there was nothing" then we invaded and there was nothing.
I can see that in your judgment that it was the case that the invasion was rational. I merely conclude that you don't have good judgment in these matters. NATO didn't participate because they collectively have better judgment, as evidenced by results.
Congress voted in favor because of the purposeful conflation with proper responses to 9/11. Not that complex. We were collectively stupid, and Bush and co were objectively evil in part because they purposefully snowed Congress and the people.
You are so wrong about all of this. Hans Blix and the IAEA never said anything even close to "Iraq is clean". After the Gulf War, when it was found that Iraq had mad surprising progress on weapons programs, they submitted to an inspection regime. In 2002 Iraq denied access to several sites. Numerous warnings were given, but to no avail. Yes, German and France (the former a chief weapons provider prior to the Gulf War, the latter a violator of the UN Oil for Food programme) were opposed to the invasion for self-interested purposes. Your whole view is totally skewed and wrong-headed.
My view is the view of the American public in retrospect. They lied us to war.
Your view has no evidence. My view has evidence like that above and this: "Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld saw Iraq through the prism of status and reputation, variously arguing in February and July 2001 that ousting Saddam would “enhance US credibility and influence throughout the region” and “demonstrate what US policy is all about”.
Right? She IS the face of evil. Remember 300,000 dead children being "worth it" to ths admin she served?? Those were lots and lots of little girls and boys just like your own. Do you think their parents loved them any less than you love yours?
That was actually Bill Clinton’s Sec of State Madeleine Albright, and it was 500,000.
But I do agree with you about BOTH of them.
I'm going to reserve judgement myself until I listen to see if Rice is talking about the errors they made, and admitting the errors they made including the issues you pointed out. Because if that is the case, we would want to know how to avoid those same errors.
I remember Ehud Barack, who was among other things a member of the raid on Beirut—one of the best special operations ever—saying “I’ve been a soldier all my life, and there is no military solution to this.”
I agree. This is a propaganda war war, and until the Western media starts telling the truth, the best that can be accomplished is keeping the pot from boiling over—if you are an Israeli—and keeping it on low boil if you are a Hamas leader who makes money off of all this; or who, worse, genuinely believes the destruction of the Jews is possible without the destruction of the whole of the refugees.; or worst of all, who believes that mass suicide is warranted if they can just “get” tgeir enemies.
I suppose all three types exist, but all would be weakened by a generalized fidelity to truth.
Aren't you the guy who posted the cultural sadeism link yesterday? If so, 1) it was very thought provoking and 2) I think you should post it again in this thread. It is not a simple read but I think it rang very true to me. Despite the bitchin' and moanin' about echo chambers and your--just-seeking-confirmation-bias and the you-just-don't-like-people-who-disagree-with-you as they clutch their pearls over either your opinion or they way you expressed it, I think we (TFP readers and commenters) all have more in common than not, barring a couple of notable exceptions. ICBW but I think we are seeking the why and how this particular place and time. I found your paper very helpful as to the philosophy. As I find Rob Henderson's luxury belief theory helpful as to the psychology. I discovered both of you on TFP. That's why I am here.
My blog is called Moderates United. I think most people are sane and want basically the same things—freedom from daily pain, a sense of safety, a sense of purpose, and a connection to a community that understands and values them. Left alone I think most of us would make common cause and fix our problems in varied creative ways.
But we are not left alone. If people tell dog lovers that this group over here hates dogs and people who live dogs, then even if it is not true the spontaneous emotionality that would come out makes it hard to listen for the dog lovers and outrage hard to manage for those falsely accused. If they then commence yelling at each other without any effirts at mutual understanding, then a whole has been broken, and cynical manipulators can push both sides in directions they would not have otherwise chosen.
That is our present world in a nutshell.
And yes, that was my piece. Here it is again: https://goodnessmovement.com/files/Download/cultural%20sadeism.pdf
Simone de Beauvoirs comments are particularly enlightening.
None of this is new. NVA troops and their proxies committed atrocities in Vietnam every bit as bad, and perhaps even worse, than what Hamas just committed. But our media refused to report on them, then and even now.
Thank you. The dog analogy is very good.
We'll look forward to your report-out. I'm sure she'll cop to all the mistakes that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of human beings.
That's HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS.
Novel idea. Listen to the podcast first. Make your assessment second. Very basic.
Saudi Arabia was the real villain of 9-11! Follow the oil!
I’m a conservative that voted for and at the time supported those war mongers. You make such a valid point and I am ashamed I didn’t learn more about the Bush/Cheney machinery before I pulled that lever. God bless your people and the strength and the resolve of the Israelis
Agreed.
In addition, I thought I remember reading how Rice was privy to information that may have prevented 9/11 and she chose to ignore it.
For an excellent discussion, the best I’ve heard so far on this, listen to Efrat Fenigson on The Dark Horse podcast. Very brave, insightful journalist.
https://youtu.be/F_IAH7PnS_E?si=4-jNvyV_47yGeorP
I think at root the conflicts in Israel continue because, and only because. of Useful Idiots in Western media and the academic environments whose propaganda births and nurtures their Very Bad Ideas.
Israel can't and should not grant the Right of Return, which is really the core demand, which amounts to "Let's pretend the 1948 War didn't happen, we didn't root for the other side, the other side didn't lose, and we didn't leave in the meantime while rooting for them. Let's also pretend it is 1948 and we get a reset again, so we can work out better plans for killing all of you that will work this time."
Israel really can't give any more land back without creating a security nightmare. So there is really nothing they can do. There are no concessions they can make, and in practice the '48 refugees don't want any. They want to kill all the Jews in Israel, and go back to 1948.
Obviously, the Israelis cannot grant this, and the refugees cannot force it. Israel is much too powerful to be conquered militarily, particularly since it has nukes and if it had to would unquestionably use them.
So why don't the '48 refugees simply accept a peace deal? This is the billion dollar question. Their children would live better lives, this would lead immediately to economic progress, and in terms of what is physically possible, that is the shortest and best path to getting it.
But their leaders benefit from the situation. Every time they initiate violence and Israel responds, there is a chorus of support in Western media. If a '48 refugee punches an Israel in the nose, it only becomes news if the Israeli punches him back. The rest they don't care about.
If you doubt this, just look at the coverage of the one of the most horrific Horroristic--there is a neologism for you, Horrorism, which is terrorism with decapitated babies--attacks ever. Somehow the focus is STILL on the bombs that seem to have been dropped arbitrarily and for no reason.
So in my view, starting violence and creating violence in response gets people in the West to send money. Various governments send money to the Gazan and West Bank governments. These governments are corrupt, and siphon off much money like Zelensky does.
And the two can be usefully compared. Zelensky is sending tens of thousands of Ukrainian men into a meat grinder or shooting gallery, where they cannot hope either to gain ground or even survive. Why? He is being told to do this by the people sending him money. And if he stops getting money, he stops being able to fund the posh lifestyle that he and his friends have come to enjoy.
There is every reason to suspect the same of no doubt low grade charming and persuasive sociopaths who live in Qatar and elsewhere, whose mansions are funded by money that was sent to "help Palestinians". War is business. And their business is funded by Western governments that are duped by Western media, which refuses to even attempt moral clarity, honest history, or accurate reporting.
"So why don't the '48 refugees simply accept a peace deal?
Because they love death more than life!
They’ve been brainwashed. It starts in earliest childhood. If you want to take the time, there are some good articles on the racist filth they teach their kids, starting before they can speak. They have anti-Jew cartoons and Muppet equivalents. Tgey grow up learning that martrys are heroes.
If it is a culture of death, it is one that has been created by conscious policy. No one is born, I dont think, a partisan of death. Babies and toddlers dont hate. They are simply sponges, who soak in what is around them, and in most cases try to make their parents proud.
It is a culture of death, but what the vast majority of non-Muslims do not understand is that the "religion" of militant/extremist/fundamentalist Muslims is a RELIGION OF DEATH. They cannot be reasoned out of it or appealed to on humanitarian grounds or bribed out of it with offers of anything. There is NOTHING that will pacify them. It's not just Israel they want gone, it is EVERYONE of ANY faith other than Islam. They say, and you can see and hear them on videos if you look, that The Prophet demands an Islamic world, with "infidels" allowed to live only in subjugation.
The children could be saved if they were taken away from their culture very, very early, but the adults cannot be reasoned or bargained with. They have to be kept in check by force.
It's very hard for most of us raised in civilized cultures to understand. I am not an expert on Islam by any means, but my family lived in Pakistan for two years, and it made a believer out of me.
Good points. I would be willing to wager that 99% of the Americans who participated in the pro Palestinian rallies yesterday do not understand anything about Islam. They likely have not read the Quran (in translation), they could not tell you the five pillars, and they certainly don’t understand the concept of jihad.
But they have opinions... just not based on any actual knowledge or facts. And they vote.
Oh, yes, they are ignorant, and they have opinions, and they vote. I lost a friend of decades over her freak-out about "what De Santis is doing to education" and my response. She told me "I know you know more than I do, and I can't back up my position, but . . . ." And I cannot say anything to my 47-year old daughter without her pulling away and saying, "Mom, please." She has also admitted she knows nothing and cannot back up her opinions, which are really just feelings. It's hard for me to comprehend.
I hear you. I wonder how many of us active on Substack have that same story to tell? I have lost almost all my old friends, and with what few I retain, we cannot talk about any “real” topics. I am not really a person for small talk and chitchat, so this has been particularly disorienting.
My oldest friend from grad school recently said that he “had” to move out of Florida because DeSantis is a “fascist” and it wasn’t “safe” for his son (now described as his daughter) to visit him there. (He moved to the urban center of Chicago, which CLEARLY isn’t “safe” for anyone!). Honestly, if it all weren’t so morally bankrupt and sad, I would have to laugh.
Another old friend from law school days said she couldn’t possibly visit me in the US because she is a gay woman (always was) and it’s not safe for gays in the USA. This is absolute claptrap,twaddle, panicky, baby idiocy. The US has millions of gay people living fabulous lives, thank you very much! The vast majority of Americans wholeheartedly approve of gay marriage, and the only gay bashing that takes place nowadays is in “ethnic” communities. I was thinking this morning that I am culturally stateless. Those who are similar to me in their sociocultural backgrounds and education are totally woke, and I am not. I suppose we could restrict ourselves to talk about sports or the weather, but really, what kind of friendship is that?
And to cap it all off, a childhood friend --a Jewish guy whose mother was a Holocaust survivor, if you can believe it-- two days after the massacre in Israel sent me a video of people doing the tango, with no other comments. WTF?
People have questioned whether I’m fabricating these absurdities, but seriously, my imagination is just not that good, or I’d have a career as a bestselling novelist/screenwriter! Ya can’t make this sh*t up!
I feel your pain. I tread lightly with my 45 year old uber liberal, BLM supporting, TDS daughter.
Feelings are fact
Truth is mis/disinformation
War is peace
Freedom is slavery
You know the rest. The Long March through the institutions is complete. If ever you had a doubt, this week should have put it to rest once and for all.
Don’t give up, they were brainwashed by evil opinions, those false beliefs can be undone
Most of those 99% couldn't find Israel on a map any sooner than they could find Ukraine. FFS, half probably couldn't find their own state on a U.S. map.
Our education system -- which used to actually impart our children with the knowledge and skills to get through life and hopefully achieve success within it -- long ago abandoned academics in lieu of Neo-Marxist brainwashing. A college degree issued today doesn't say "I'm educated" it says "I've been indoctrinated."
The logical conclusions from that are that appeasement feeds war and containment and the curtailment of practical hope of achieving their objectived feeds peace.
Muslims were largely quiescent until the latter half of the twentieth century, when Communist agents decided that resurrecting narratives of glorious bloody deaths within a context of anti-Western narratives suited their own ideas of their own global conquest.
These people are tools. They will never win. But they have shown themselves to be very willing to fight as proxies with very little coaxing.
The supposed perfection of the Koran has in general both prevented most liberalization in their societies, and contributed directly to ignorance outside specific technical fields, like engineering.
I think they were pretty quiescent until Charlie Wilson won his war.
I am glad you specified extremist factions because cannot say that I think Islam is uncivilized. I do think it is incompatible with Western values though.
One must recognize the difference between the extremist factions and those who do for the most part share our desire for peace, our desire to treat individuals with respect, and our love for our spouses and children. I think both the Bible (the Old Testament is also part of the Jewish Bible) and the Koran refer to God/Allah as sometimes fierce and punitive and sometimes gentle and loving. More Christians and Jews than Muslims see the gentler parts of their holy books as a guide to living, while understanding that the more violent parts are not to be taken literally.
I do agree that to a great extent, Islam is incompatible with Western values and with life in a post–Dark Ages world.
I agree. As far as what one takes from their religion I think that is a question of the individual's personality or character to an extent. So I believe there are peace-loving Muslims. But it is my understanding that Mohammed said that Jews and Christians both got the word of God wrong. And that he was sent to correct that. That in and of itself causes disdain and intolerance.
All of what you say can be verified at www.memri.org .
When the media showcases Palestinian women wailing, and clutching after their dead family members they are really displaying their anti-Israel bias, and are attempting to influence their consumers that Israel is responsible for the violence and death. Never do they report on how those grieving women have beed brainwashed by their leaders.
1000% agree. I don’t think the masses understand the concept of narratives and paradigms and how these are mental constructs that repeat themselves over and over until we 1) become aware of them and then 2) work to break them
The masses do not seem to understand anything at all. And they are not the least bit interested in gaining any understanding, or knowledge.
I just have to post this link about education:
https://unorthodoxy.substack.com/p/origins-of-modern-education
They hate us more than they love their children.
I will add that it is long past the time to ask "Cui bono?".
To my main suspect, I will add the varied Arab governments that are able to distract from their own failures and tyranny by screaming constantly about "the Jews". Iran might be one example, although I think even that ruse stopped working and they have regressed to straight up mass arrests, torture, and execution.
What is little known is that the Arabs who fled the war their brethren created in 1948, which it seems reasonable to assume they in general supported, had counterparts who stayed. Those Arab Muslims even now constitute perhaps a fifth of Israel's population. In some respects they are second class citizens. They do not enjoy all the rights Jews possess, or so I understand, not least because many of them to some degree support the refugees and so are not fully trusted; but even so, they have more civil rights that Arabs in any other Arab nation, such as Syria or Saudi Arabia.
Secondly, I assume arms dealers benefit from this conflict, as they benefit from any conflict. It's like Big Pharma: all disease is good business, and here all shooting is good business.
But in both cases such external parties cannot directly force the leaders of the '48 Refugees to reject every honest peace deal, break every treaty they sign, commit atrocities without provocation, and to in every possible way work to ensure the continued immiseration of those for whom they have fought to speak, in some cases with literal bullets, making them more or less Arab Mafiosi.
I literally think that five years of Western media reporting honestly would be enough for long term peace, because the profit motive would disappear. That's my Peace Plan.
You have captured the situation in your post aptly. I think instead of George Packer’s crap he wrote today, Bari should perhaps give you the slot you have much more clarity and understanding of the Israeli situation.
I wouldn’t say no, but I doubt I will get the chance to say yes.
I’ve been on the internet a long time, and at some point I have said something somewhere to piss off pretty much every member of humanity.
To my mind, writing for an audience you need to take into account ruins the fun of thinking openly without filters, which in the long run is in my view the shortest path to consistently reasonable and probably mostly accurate perception.
Its interesting, too, watching “nice” people learn to lie and dissimulate in real time. They have good tutors, so the transmogrification into full blown Leftists wont take long. Its a well worn path into a dark hole.
And if the path in is lies, the path out becomes harder the more egregious the lies, because speaking truth to past deceit requires a large dose of humility.
The morons protesting on campuses and in the streets, when confronted with the slaughter of children, deny it is happening.
Watch this video of a father talking about the murder of his 8 year old daughter and tell me that HAMAS and the protester supporting HAMAS aren't the face of evil. This is hard to watch.
https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2023/10/12/3966105595287456361/1024x576_MP4_3966105595287456361.mp4
Compro claims to be a college prof. I bet he is out on his campus with a bullhorn supporting HAMAS and cursing Israel. What do you think?
I’ve seen the clip I couldn’t watch it again.
It brought more than a tear to my eye. That beautiful little girl.
Yip it’s heart breaking 💔
Not to the vile morons protesting Israel or the Dem members of congress.
I saw a reporter confront one of the little snots, a young woman, protesting for HAMAS. The reporter said HAMAS is killing babies and little children. She said, "They are not!"
Her response didn't surprise me at all. I have said many times on this BBS, the left hates history and facts. They live in an ignorant left wing fantasy world full of hate..
They would call this Israeli propaganda, lies:
https://news.yahoo.com/israeli-babies-children-pictured-chilling-202827801.html
I call it horrific, disgusting. Any civilized person would think the same thing but not the left, the Dem/Socs.
The goal is perfect moral sanctity. They share an obsession with purity with the Nazis.
The real world ia complicated and all decisions rarely lack an almost equally good alternative.
But they want to live in a fantasy world in which doing easy things—like shouting slogans they didnt originate—counts as heroism and all of them get to go to bed either amazed at their own goodness, or infuriated at the unwillingnesd of the world to recognize and praise their amazing feats.
Its childish. I was at a Renaissance fair a few weekends where lots of people were wearing swords and playacting being basasses. I am very sure most or all of these people are horrified at this moment what ISRAEL is doing. Pretending is a form of lying and lying can easily be made habitual, particukarly by lazy weak people.
Very well said!
There currently probably are about 40,000 refugees remaining (all are at least 75 years old). The UN alone is giving more than $25,000 a year for the refugees, but they receive very little of it. The money goes to Hamas and Hizbollah.
When I am being optimally accurate I call them the descendants of the refugees, but that's a lot of words.
And yes, I think siphoning that money off is the game. It's a profitable racket, and I don't think the people at the top of it even live in Gaza or the West Bank. They have lieutenants to run things in those places.
Yes, descendants of a refugee are not refugees. Otherwise my children would be refugees, as my parents were both real refugees (from Nazi Germany in the 1930s).
I was with you until you switched to the Ukraine.
Why? The Ukraine is run by corrupt kleptocrats. This does not make Russia innocent, but aa I understand the matter—the only thing I am sure of is that none of us know the whole story—they are in fact in the main “rescuing” ethnic Russians who want to be part of Russia.
As things stand, Russia has taken most of the territory it wants, fortified their lines, and is destroying, with much death, everything the Ukraine throws at them.
This is stupid. Russia was never trying to conquer all of Ukraine, never mind Western Europe.
We are sending them so much weaponry that is promotly destroyed it is hurting our OWN combat readiness. If I were China I would be paying the bills fir all of Ukraines lobbyists. And they may be, in addition to bribing Congress. And we have DOCUMENTED money they paid our President.
Wake up.
I suppose your belief that Russia only sought the Donbas sees the initial thrust to Kiev as part of that strategy. I think you're wrong.
I may be. But has all this money, these armaments and Ukrainian deaths accomplished anything?
Is that not a reasonable question, particularly given the patent graft going on? Do you think at this point any Ukrainian parents are happy to see their children die in this lost cause? No parents are ever happy to lose their kids but this point the whole thing is a pointless slaughter that needs to end.
I think that choice should remain with the Ukrainian people. I also think US interests are served in supporting them.
The Ukraine is not a democracy. They are censoring dissidents and in many cases arresting and incarcerating them. The people are not being consulted.
What US interests? The military industrial complex?
And Ukrainian soldiers and civilians treated like sacrificial.lambs at slaughter. I read that 2000 government officials were prevented recently from leaving.
Arafat died a BILLIONAIRE
I see many condemnations of Israel’s “cruel” treatment of Palestinians, but I want to hear real solutions. What can Israel do differently without compromising security? And why in the world should they stop building settlements in the hope of some theoretical peace deal that the Palestinians clearly do not want?
That is such a great point, and I would add that Israel gave back the Gaza Strip in a land for peace plan. The Gazans could govern themselves. And what happened? See what happened last Saturday. The people like Rice or Packer don't have to live with the consequences of their actions—the Israelis do. We should not run to past failures like Rice or listen to effete narcissists like Packer. Israel should follow the path that will work for them and not worry about the pain it will cause the enemy. Deep down, everyone in Gaza cheered and wanted Isreal dead. That needs to change before any peace, and sadly, you must break people of the habit rather than giving them peace offerings.
It wasn’t even deep down. The celebrations were out in the open for everyone to see.
And a question that jumped into my mind: if you give aid and comfort to a mortal enemy, are you really innocent civilians?
Hi Elizabeth! So I approach events (and ultimately history) from a conspiratorial perspective. I’d argue that we only get the “good” side of history and without looking at the conspiratorial nature, we’re only getting half the picture.
I say that to say that you make a great point in we “see celebrations.”
My point is this: who’s “showing” us these images? “Why” are they showing us these images? Is the point here to invoke an emotion in me, the viewer, so I support their mission?
Without this analysis, we simply follow along the narrative without logically looking at the situation.
I’m hoping this is making sense and here are a few articles for references to tie everything:
1. Why we need to be careful what we see on tv:
https://unorthodoxy.substack.com/p/how-to-tell-whats-real-in-the-land
2. How billionaires really shape industries (including war):
https://unorthodoxy.substack.com/p/donating-to-a-good-cause-how-billionaires
Let me know if there are any questions!
They are showing them to us. Just as any other group of people at a celebration, they pull out their phones and records themselves celebrating and upload it onto social media.
"And why in the world should they stop building settlements in the hope of some theoretical peace deal that the Palestinians clearly do not want?"
That is it, in a nutshell!
You nailed it and its simple. But deeper is the sick thinking that somehow Jews are not real people and killing them is justified. Some seriously sick thinking in the world.
Pulling war hungry neocon globalists like Condoleezza Rice into the discussion may not be the best look Bari. She's sharp, well informed and convincing, but keep in mind that she was also a huge part of the "yellowcake uranium from Niger" crew that was trotted out by the Bush administration to justify invading and occupying Iraq. Saddam Hussein was a tyrant and killer of his own people, but ask any family member who lost a loved one in Iraq if they think the US invasion was worth it......not to mention the 2.5 trillion it cost american tax payers. But hey.......at least ExxonMobile, 3 Chinese oil companies, & 2 Russian oil companies have a monopoly on the Iraqi oil fields today......so there's that.
That said, its clear you are emotional in your position and rightly so, but Rice is the wrong sounding board IMO.
Finally, when I read Zelensky state “It was very important not to be alone,” I almost laughed out loud. Zelensky has never given two sh*ts about Israel or peace in the middle east. If he didn't think that cuddling up to the Israel cause right now wouldn't get him another huge war chest of US taxpayer funds, you wouldn't hear a mouse fart out of the guy. Oh.......and I'm guessing his Azov commanders are not all that impressed with his new found friend.....just sayin.
Hear hear on the Zelensky comments.
To what point would we have to ask that, "wait, is the FP showing some propoganda?" I'm sure many follow Alex on Unreported Truths and I'm finding that a lot of reporters are choosing not to apply the same critical skills to covid to this topic.
Here's the comment I made:
https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/it-is-not-too-early-to-discuss-israels/comments
So I don't believe TFP is posting any "propaganda", but clearly there is bias and I would almost expect that from Bari. She's passionate and unapologetic of her religion, the Jewish people/state and their safety. And rightly so, I must say.
I did read Berenson's stack last night. He has always been a level headed heterodox writer and I think makes strong points. I also listen to Dave Smiths 'Part Of The Problem' podcast. Like Alex, Dave makes solid arguments and is worth following IMO.
I can agree with this! It’s not “propaganda” per se, but a bias that would be expected. That’s fair! Thanks for that callout!
I just found this excellent Substack talking about: atrocity propaganda. Turns out the whole “they’re killing and rapping women and children” has been around for A WHILE:
https://intelligiblenoise.substack.com/p/israel-hamas-war-youre-being-manipulated?r=19qd1i&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
Re: Zelensky - what would you propose him to do? Western governments have the option to not fund him. He has little power leverage over them - this idea that he is supposed to turn away foreign aid on a moral basis because of the taxpayer is laughable. Any leader would do the same. The responsibility lies with those giving aid, not with Zelensky.
He would be smart to negotiate a peace deal similar to what he had in March 2022 before Boris flushed it down the drain via the Biden administration. American will abandon continued funding and supplies in the not to distant future. Europe hasn't provided a fraction of what they should have even though its in their back yard. That won't change once the US piggybank goes empty. NATO is impotent and won't lift a finger. So instead of pushing his own people into the Russian meat grinder any further, he should end it. He's never going to give up aid on a moral basis ever........no corrupt leaders have ever done that, and he's no different. I never implied that & you clearly missed my point as to why he's now mysteriously interested in Israel's well being. He should give up b/c he's 110% going to lose regardless of how much funding he might get. So again, he should settle for peace.......he won't get back territory, but 50% of a buck is better than zero.
Sorry but I’m not going to lay blame on someone for trying to regain their sovereignty. That doesn’t mean Western allies are void of blame here And I understand why people would be upset with tax payer funding.
He’s corrupt because he’s accepting aid? Of course he is going to accept aid and supplies - that’s just common sense. “No, we don’t want billions of dollars in aid and ammunition and artillery!”.
Has nothing to do with morals. Ukraine has a long history of corruption, no doubt, but to suggest that a leader in a war should refuse aid based on some moral compass you believe he should have is… completely out of touch with reality.
The US will fight the Ukraine war to the last Ukrainian!
I have nothing but contempt for the George Packers of the world. Yes, Isreal, you have a festering problem with a group that wants to kill all of you, shoots rockets into your country, and hides among civilians, but let's tie your hands when dealing with the existential threat. In TGIF, one blurb was on the idiot progressive professors and the idiocy that spews from them. George is a student who more than likely learned at their feet.
Hamas, when planning this assault, counted on the George Packer's of the world. We can act with impunity and hide out. Israel will do what they always do, hit a few buildings, and then pull back because if they come after us, the cost will be too much for the George Packers of the world to handle. And the George Packers are the world's most intelligent people, and if their sensibilities get hurt, we win.
Sadly, the people of Gaza did nothing to create or stop this, but they are in the middle of it. Who will be to blame? Hamas. When civilians die, its because of Hamas; when they starve or die of disease, it's because of Hamas. Every last member of Hamas must either have a conversion to modernity or die. It is for the people of Gaza to see the futility of acting like barbarians and change. We must not go to the Bush years but rather the Truman years. The Allies crushed the Germans and Japanese. Yes, we killed civilians, but those left created new societies from the old ones. For any new peace to happen, the same pattern must occur. Hamas must be utterly destroyed, and the people who are left must see that the old way is no longer viable and change. This policy might hurt George Packer's feelings but is the only path forward.
The most important lesson we can take from 9 11 is that governments will use events to convince people that they need less freedom and the government needs more power.
Sadly hardly anyone has learned that lesson
Trump was masterfully resolving this issue isolating and diminishing Iran and sidelining the Palestinians until a fraudulent election removed him. The uniparty of war is now firmly back in control
In 2006, just as Israel was about to annihilate Hezbollah in Lebanon, Condoleeza Rice swooped in to impose a peace deal. This stupid policy allowed the terrorists to retrench and rebuild.
Then there was Iraq.
Rice, who reminds her audience of her blackness in every speech, is done. She’s done more than enough damage for a lifetime.
Regarding Packer's article, it's hard to avoid killing Palestinian civilians in a gunfight when their terrorist husbands, fathers, and sons are hiding behind them in the midst of it... Terrorists choose not to be bound by the Geneva Convention. They should be treated according to their choices.
Darn. No transcript. And I'm a big fan of Miss Rice. Next.
So am I.
We should never have gone into Iraq. Saddam Hussein was a monster but then all of the Islamic dictators in the Middle East are monsters. It's what they do. And it has been that way for thousands of years.
Supposedly intelligence pointed to Hussein having WMDs. This intelligence was, I believe, credible.
Hussein had used, at least twice, nerve gas on the Kurds.
However, entering Iraq was like entering a snake pit.
There are no easy answers to complex problems. Nothing is black or white. The truth lies somewhere in between.
I like Rice. She is very smart and I believe a straight shooter.
Saddam Hussein wasn't Islamist, he and many other dictators we removed in middle east was secular dictator. We, by advice of our Saudi "fiends" have removed secular dictators that were fighting against Islamist in their countries. Biggest mistake we made, was listening to Saudis and other rich Theocracies in middle East
You are correct......he expelled, jailed & killed jailed Islamists by the thousands. If ya look back at post 9/11, we clearly invaded the wrong country. Our sites should have always been squarely on Saudi Arabia.
That is not what the internet says.
I take the Carole King approach: I've been to Canaan and I want to go back again. In my lifetime the only presidents (or alleged president) who didn't start a new war during their tenures were Dwight Eisenhower and Donald Trump; one understood in the most personal way what war means and the second understood that Continuous War is the most efficient way to convince a free people to give up their rights - and he was having none of it.
The Orange Man's first move was to announce to the world that his administration was "not interested in any regime changes," which meant that he could interact with foreign heads of state without their worrying he was going to have their literal heads via the usual CIA meddling. Where Condi fit in all that during the Bush and Shrub admins is still open to debate. I would like to see what she has to say though. Too bad about the lack of transcript. Onward. Other fish to fry....
i'd rather have rice-aroni
Condi should keep in mind Jews were there before Christianity and Islam existed. And sure there are “descent” PA authorities but if they will not end Hamas et al then they have no intention of stopping the next attempted genocide.
I’m watching our own government already pressuring Israel for restraint.
But I hope Israel instead decimates enemies entirely.
Good to see Condaleeza Rice speaking, an intelligent and thoughtful woman.
I believe Condoleeza Rice has a fundamental grasp of the intricacies of middle east politics. I particularly appreciated her comment that the first thing on your mind after a horrific attack is not finding blame but keeping your people safe from further damage. I have always admired her.
In contrast to many of the commenters, I appreciated the interview with Dr. Rice. I heard her admit that they did not handle everything perfectly, but no one is perfect. I appreciated her thoughtful perspective on middle eastern history past and present. Based on her intelligence and experience, I think her opinions are beneficial. She led during a very difficult time, and it is easy for people to second guess those actions 20+ years later. Based on many of the comments here, I guess most of the hateful, bloviating people didn’t listen to the interview.
During the Bush years, I was adamantly against anyone in his administration because I was anti-war. I evolved and I like Condeleeza Rice. Thank you for interviewing her on Honestly.
Jon, thank you for evolving. It seems many here have not.
There can be no peace as long as one side cares about humanity and its people and the other see their own people as useful for being killed and hiding among them as targets to further the worldwide propaganda of the idiots in news organizations.
One cares for its people and the other could care less. There is no moral ground for peace.
"One cares for its people and the other could care less." You do mean could "NOT" care less, don't you, Terry?