Bari, it took courage and fairness to run this story. You are a good person and a truth seeker. Thank you. I deeply respect and appreciate you and Free Press. And to the author, I send love and prayers for you, for the family you lost, for Palestinians, for Jews. For the world.
I’m sure somebody has a book that compiles a bunch of sad stories from Germany. I’m also sure they didn’t release the book during the war unless they wanted to help the Germans.
Or maybe we should send the remaining WWII veterans to The Hague for war crimes and pay reparations to Germany. I’m sure their electricity went out at one point during the war.
I hope Biden lets in 700,000 ‘Palestinian’ refugees so everyone learns their lesson the hard way.
My family was extremely lucky, both sides fled from forces that wanted to butcher them, from China and Germany (an example of Jews wandering the earth and knowing they are never safe). The strangest story is my Aunt who was a nurse, a Jew, and a lesbian who worked for the Red Cross and was in Berlin throughout WWII. I think she told us where she worked was across from Gestapo HQ in Berlin. I visited her in Berlin in the early 70's and she introduced me to her friends Maria and her husband. Maria was her friend and helped her throughout the war. I suppose Aunt Erna helped her too. Maria's husband was in the Wehrmacht and fought in WWII. I hope these bright lights in the darkness are there today in Israel and Gaza. https://www.holocaustcenter.org/berlins-jewish-hospital/
Yes, thanks Bari for giving us a glimpse from the other side of the fence. A mad dog is a mad dog, still one can ask where and how it contracted rabies. One must shoot it just the same, but if you know that it was deliberately infected, the morality of the situation changes somewhat.
Neither the author nor the children in his family who died this week are mad dogs who need to be killed. Nor is any Israeli. How presumptuous and poor spirited. Morality? Perhaps start by taking a page out of Bari's book and finding your own humanity.
I was referring to Hamas. But that is far from clear in context, thanks for pointing it out. Sheesh! it does sound like I'm referring to the author, my bad. Yes, mea maxima culpa.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I actually make that mistake rather often -- I broaden out the topic but is sounds like I'm talking about the specific.
Very, very perfectly said, Liora, thank you. As much as I sympathize with the writer's plight--no one should lose family like that--the tone of the piece enrages me. Israel had cleared out of Gaza and left it for Palestinians to run like the state they insisted they wanted. They had what they claimed they wanted in their hands.
They went the rocket, invasion, and slaughter route instead.
I agree - I hear no acknowledgement of the atrocities perpetrated by his people just last week, nor of the nearly 200 people kidnapped and being tortured this very moment within Gaza: not one mention of Hamas.
Exactly. Bari ran two pieces. One by a Jew who expressed empathy for the Palestinians and a dream of peace for both, and one by a Palestinian who expressed neither. I don’t know any Jews who don’t feel for the people in Gaza or the West Bank. If the rest of the world really felt for those people too, then the rest of the world would disband Hamas and the PLO and demand that the Palestinian people give up their homicidal intent and actually build a functioning civil society with the billions the world gives them annually. If Arabs renounce violence and commit to real peace, the fences will come down. It’s that simple.
From the article: "I love the Jewish people. My issue has always been with the state of Israel." The author left Gaza at 19 and moved to the United States, where he could live in peace with Jewish people.
Hamas knew what it was triggering when it attacked Israel. Hamas slaughtered Israeli children and used Palestinian children as a human shield. There really aren't any good options left for Israel, and that is entirely the fault of Hamas.
This author isn't Hamas. He's an American was once a child in Gaza. He's a man grieving family members killed in the crossfire between Hamas and Israel. His story matters too.
There are 7.6 million Jewish people in the US. Do you consider them all to be disempowered? Lacking in self-actualization? Not full participants in the Democratic process?
I will certainly concede that he did not make explicit whether he objected to the policies of Israel or the existence of Israel. It could be interpreted either way.
I support the existence of Israel, but not all of their policies. Same as any other nation.
As an expat Israeli I can tell tell you that while many want peace, the percent of people who give a damn about Palestinian lives dwindled significantly since Saturday.
Nobody wants to deal with the fact that, on average, the Palestinians are full-time victims who have no notion of building, work and responsibility, nor of considering anyone else's plight. And that's not even mentioning the genocidal religion. Tragically, though, the people now in charge in Israel insist on empowering the same type of hoodlums in Jewish uniforms by building them one illegal settlement after another to make sure the Palestinians can't have a contiguous state. Now let's flatten Northern Gaza and kill thousands of civilians, and that's the smart response? Or rather stepping into the trap set by the Arabs and Iran?
It is important to approach this issue honestly and with nuance, avoiding oversimplified comparisons and false moral equivalence. It's important to recognize that the Palestinian community has been extended offers for statehood on multiple occasions—sometimes even before the widespread adoption of the term "Palestinian." Notably, the UN Partition Plan in 1948 proposed providing the Arab population with the most arable and fertile territories, leaving the Jewish population with primarily desert regions and coastal lands. Had this offer been accepted, there is no question that not a single settlement would have been built in the West Bank. Moreover, Israel has shown, more than once, its readiness to evacuate its citizens from settlements to advance peace (Gaza 2005, Yamit 1982), even in the face of considerable internal challenges. Regrettably, the historical record indicates a consistent pattern of hostility towards Israel from Palestinian factions and their Arab allies. This recurrent stance has, over time, weakened their position and deteriorated the likelihood of a viable solution. Yet, the blame is often shifted to the Israeli government, specific groups within Israel, western powers, or other external factors...but never their own leadership, never the organizations that force their plight, never themselves.
You can't start thinking of the plight of others until you are comfortable yourself. For example, is a homeless mother of two kids going to think about the plight of other people--no, she's going to do what she needs to do for her and her children to survive. It's only when your own basic needs (food, clothes, shelter) are met that you can start to think of others.
Israel absolutely has the right to root out Hamas and the slaughter that occurred last weekend was evil in the purest sense in that many in Hamas were LAUGHING as they killed people which I don't think has happened in Israel or much in the U.S. (though Abu Graib made me question that).
That doesn't mean someone with family in Gaza isn't going to feel sad when their relatives are killed or wounded.
Where the rubber meets the road, he put 5000 miles of ocean between himself; his family; and toxicity. He walked away from Omelas. Several million more people need to do the same.
While I agree in concept, he was in a position to do so. Many others aren't and are stuck there. That said, there needs to be a general uprising against the toxicity of the regime they elected. Even if Hamas was "elected" at the point of a gun, 2 million people can take out that regime should they so choose. So far, I see nothing that indicates they even care about running their own lives peacefully. They had the chance before Hamas came in ... and nothing changed.
I was reading Kevin Williamson in The Dispatch this morning. He wrote:
"The Palestinian people have legitimate grievances, and I myself have tried my very best to give a damn about them. But you only get to blow up so many pizza shops. You start beheading children and murdering young mothers and torturing people so viciously and inhumanely that parents pray that their children will be found dead (link to https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/11/israel-father-reaction-daughter-killed-kibbutz-hamas-attack-clarissa-ward-dnt-nn-vpx.cnn) rather than discovered to have been taken hostage into Gaza, then you and your legitimate grievances and any United Nations resolution you want to cite can all go rot. There aren’t two sides to this story. We ought not pretend that there are.
Before he became … whatever it is he has become … J. D. Vance wrote an interesting and useful book, which you may remember, called "Hillbilly Elegy." He ended it with an exasperated but sympathetic plea to his hillbilly people: "Come on, already. Get it together, people. You’ve been through hard times, I know, but now, you have to take care of yourselves and do it for yourselves. Stop making excuses. Take control of your lives." Not in those words, of course; this is my paraphrase. [...]
History moves on, and, if you get left behind—it may not be your *fault*, but it is still your *problem*. The Israeli forces should be the least of the mortal worries afflicting those Hamas killers—if the Palestinians had any self-respect, it would be *them* taking the lead in putting an end to the power of these monsters, who are homicidal maniacs when it comes to the Jews but who haven’t done the Palestinians a lick of good, either. But, unhappily, the one almost universally shared assumption of modern diplomatic discourse is that the Palestinian Arabs are something less than whole and complete human beings, that they are not advanced enough to be true moral actors because they do not have the strength of national character to bear the moral weight that falls exclusively upon the shoulders of the Israelis and the peoples of the other liberal democratic states. The Palestinians, according to this line of thought, just bounce around like windup toys, and only the Israelis, the Americans, and the Europeans can be expected to behave like responsible adults. Nobody ever puts it exactly that way, of course, but that’s the upshot. The Palestinians are treated by their so-called advocates and benefactors as though they were a nation of people who have no agency and, hence, no responsibility."
Thanks for this, jhc. I love me some Kevin Williamson; even when we don't agree, he's such a good reporter and interpreter he makes me think about WHY I disagree. I'll check it out.
To your main point, yes. We're treating Palestinians with the "soft bigotry of low expectations," as if they are children who need minding rather than adults who should have been three generations into their new lives by now. Israel literally set them free in Gaza and they wrecked the joint pouting instead of rubbing their hands and saying, "I'm gonna double revenue by this time next year, Bro. Get all the village kids over here, I have paying jobs for 'em."
Great points jhc. Couldn't agree more. This is exactly why the Palestinians fit into the left's "victim" box and garner sympathy and protests even after committing barbaric acts.
Thank you for that link to the video on CNN. That father's story affected me much more than all the pictures and videos I've seen so far, including the pictures of the headless babies. My mind just couldn't seem to grasp or relate to photos of bloody homes, burned infants or beheaded children. Even videos of people being taken hostage or shot at seemed surreal. But as a mother, this father's story really broke through my numbness. Thank you!
It’s rather like the black inner city in America that continually votes for Democrats who do not facilitate sane policies - like policing, education etc - leaving their communities in a constant state of disarray. A political ideology that perpetuates ‘victimhood’ will never actually cure the believer and bring him or her to a good life. We say to the Palestinians, leave your dysfunctional life, seek peace and a healthier environment. But we should also be saying that to the captured black American inner cities as well.
Just made that exact point in my text group after pasting in part of the KDW quote above. American liberals very much treat black people the same way - agency-less driftwood being tossed around by the currents who can only be saved by White Knights.
Agree.. but on the same hand, about 40% of the Gazan population is under 18. They don't have political power much less maturity for that sort of organizing? That said, the adults that do live in Gaza.. and those abroad.. need to get the "religion" that Hamas/Hezbollah/etc are the causes of their miseries, not Israel. If Gaza and other Palestinian territories - and the Arab sponsor states - would stop pressing an eliminationist rhetoric against Israel, and of course, sponsoring terroristic acts, the Palestinian people would have more freedom, more prosperity, and more bargaining power.
I appreciated the publishing of this essay, and do think it's important to hear and understand Palestinian voices, but what was missing (for me) was the condemnation of Hamas and these acts of violence, and any sort of acknowledgement that so many Gazans live in poverty is due to the ideology that Hamas promotes, where youth spend more time "protesting" Israel than they do in building Gaza into a livable region, which is 100% tied to how much Palestinians continue to support extremism and seem to prefer this "oppression" that comes as a result. Acknowledge Israel's right to exist, accept the "two state" solution, and the blockades and the rest will recede into history, and Palestinians can focus on their own society rather than trying to destroy another one.
Thanks for this, 'Cat. Definitely agree on the importance of this essay and most of what Bari publishes. I like to see as many views as possible to refine my own.
I believe Israelis and Palestinians could settle their differences IF Palis had a strong and visionary leader. Palestinians need a new Saladin, one who's smart, charismatic, powerful, and commands respect of the people, in order to negotiate a deal that both Palis and Israelis can live with. Hamas and PA/PLO aren't it, the latter being weak and corrupt tea and the former a 7th Century fundamentalist death cult for Islam.
I'm not sure I understand these comments. They are written as if Gazans can vote for who they choose. Hamas has been running it not as a political party, but as a military oligarchy with total control. This has been the case since 2007. There have not been elections since.
Taking out a military oligarchy sounds nice, but try it when you have funding from countries with 50x+ your GDP supporting the oligarchy, and a strong right wing party in Israel (100x+ your GDP) choosing to foster that oligarchy's success as well.
Just curious, who should take them? We have already seen across Europe that middle eastern refugees have caused huge social issues, as those group are not assimilating and instead are bringing many of the same cultural issues that they fled from.
Similar to people here fleeing blue cities and then voting for the same policies that caused them to have to flee, I suspect there are a number of folks from Palestine that might want the prosperity of another country, but are not looking to change to fit that new country.
Jordan out and out refused to take any Gazan refugees. The Gazans currently living in Jordan had their citizenship revoked some time ago and they will not be allowed citizenship ever again. Other Palestinians living in Jordan are systematically and slowly having their citizenship revoked and they only find out when they go to renew their driver's licenses and find they cannot.
By far my favourite Science Fiction author in the round; and Earthsea only has peers in Middle Earth and the Discworld as far as I'm concerned. My favourite shorts are 'Winter's King'. and 'Darkness Box'. 'Left-Hand of Darkness' and 'The Disposessed' for the novels. She had far more philosophical and moral bottom than even the cream of the field in the round. YMMV.
Not buying that, Theresa, at least not entirely. Hamas represents the deepest feelings of Palestinians more than we want to believe.
The Gaza pullout by Israel was the closest thing they had to a state. Unlike West Bank, the land is a single piece and contiguous, with defined borders and a long seafront. They had billion-dollar businesses in Gaza, handed to them by Israel on departure. The land was stripped of all its Jews and soldiers BY Jews and soldiers. Gaza was exactly what they'd demanded Israel give them--freedom.
Instead of prospering, they shot themselves in the head and whined it was the Jews's fault.
I strongly believe that most (not all) Palestinians hate themselves for their self-inflicted calamities in 1948, 1967, 1973, two broken Intifadas, and failure to take back any of the land they forfeited by those losses. They didn't even try in Gaza. It's hard to sympathize with people who refuse to dig a foundation when handed the shovels, concrete, and wood for free.
I just read somewhere they were handed all these beautiful high tech greenhouses in Gaza, and the Palestinians just came and looted them all after the Israeli pullout.
Yep, that's exactly what happened. Gaza had a thriving, multimillion-dollar industry growing flowers for export. Also produce, lots of it. When Israel pulled out, they left all those businesses intact and contracts open. Pals destroyed everything.
Just like civilian Gazans followed the terrorists into at least one kibbutz (there is a video showing that) -- one of these civilians was an old man using a cane, so cannot argue that he is a "militant". Of course, they went to the kibbutz to loot what was left after homes were burned to the ground.
Seventy five percent of the people in Gaza voted for Hamas (1.5 million) knowing they were ruthless butchers. Israel has not been in Gaza since 2005. All you have heard is propaganda.
First of all I am not listening to propaganda. I'm trying to make sense of all this tragedy. Secondly maybe the Palestinians didn't feel they had any other choice but to vote for Hamas.
"Maybe the Krauts didn't feel they had any choice but Adolf" That would be a *'king stupid thing to say but that is where you have wound up: with your ethics and morals in the crapper.
Fatah who also applauded the massacres last week. Political parties and leaders are born out of the character and ethos of the communities who create them.
They had been given many choices but accepted none. If you are trying to understand why this happened watch “ They are lying about the land” ( w/Robert Spenser) on YouTube. Hamas is compare able to ISSI. Far as long as I can remember there has alway been conflict in the Middle East. These are radical people who believe killing your children for Allah is a good thing. They are kinda like the leftist here in America. The UN, America and even Israel have given money to support these people. Israel even supplied utilities so go figure.
When they had a vote in 2006, 90% of Palestinians voted for Hamas. Instead of trying to improve the lot of their people, Hamas buys rockets, bulldozers, motorized paragliders and weapons to murder and kidnap Isrealis and Americans. As President Obama said, elections have consequences.
"Palestinian" is someone who was attracted to Israel by their prosperity. Before Jews returned to their ancient homeland, it was a barren no-mans land. Jews were the ones to fulfil the prophecy "the desert shall blossom like a rose." (I heard it said that Jews became the victim of their own prosperity).
Jews were named for the word "praise". When their King is revealed as the Messiah they rejected, the tribes of Israel will mourn for him. What a day that will be!
Except it's a bit more complicated than that. 'You' first told the psychopaths that you intended to dispossess them of all that they owned and take over their country. Prior to that, you had lived among them more or less unmolested for 2000 years -- little butchering of you or your children. Very few people are born psychopaths, but one can certainly cultivate them given enough brutality and humiliation. Even now I suspect the majority of Palestinians would rather just live and let live given half a chance to exist as normal people of a normal country. But there is something about the boot of the occupier that makes people rather nasty. And yes, some would be nasty anyway.
well, I guess the odd pogrom here and there doesn't mean that the dhimmi Jews who lived among the Moslems (who invaded and occupied the land beginning in about the year 700 CE) were "more or less unmolested". I guess a pogrom here and there qualifies as "little butchering". And the Arabs have been in the Land of Israel for less than 1000 years. Oh well, what's 1000 years between friends!
Yes, the odd pogrom here and there is par for the course isn't it? Humans have historically butchered each other so often that in the past it took a death toll in the hundreds of thousands to be even worthy of note. Now, a mere few hundred make the news -- that's progress.
And since, historically, *everyone* discriminated against everyone else, dhimmi status was -- by the standards of the time -- rather enlightened. Contrast the treatment of the Jews, in the same era, by the Catholics for some idea what I'm trying to say. Bottom line is that Jews have a small but extant continuity in Palestine throughout the domination of the Muslims. Persecuted, yes, exterminated, no.
Less than a thousand years you say? That's hardly time to get unpacked, is it? Obviously another people, who have been mostly living elsewhere for two thousand years are the real owners, yes? Ah, wait ... the Hebrews were themselves conquerors, and the Bible cheerfully relates their complete extermination of one city after another (even the animals). Joshua and Hamas had similar attitudes, no? The place really belongs to the Philistines, if any of them can still be found. But wait ... the Philistines weren't the first, either.
In my opinion, religious title is an idea fit for the middle ages, especially when invoked by atheists. You know who owns the land? Why, it's the individual title holders, that's who. Who owns Mr. Aziz's orange grove? The Philistines? The Jews? The Ottomans? The British? The Zionists? ... nope ... Mr. Aziz owns his orange grove, he has the title-deed to prove it, and if he's driven off his land, he should either get it back, or be compensated for it notwithstanding the race or religion or nationality or favorite color of the people dispossessing him.
Yes, Muslims today think that dhimmi status is the proper status for Jews and Christians even today.
I am not suggesting that those who have been here for generations be transferred out (as loser populations have been until the Jews won a war that might have justified transfer -- another improvement in the modern age, eh?). In fact, many of the Muslims in Judea-Samaria are Jew who were Islamized upon the Arab Conquest. A small number of them have bravely asked to rejoin the Jewish People. If Israel actually wins against Hamas=PLO=ISIS, I wonder how many others will rise up and as to convert back to their Jewish roots.
Do you know that the UN declared as a refugee any Arab who was in the Land of Israel for two years and who left under whatever conditions they left before the declaration of Israeli independence as a modern state? Why only two years? That would include all those who migrated to this land since the beginning of the waves of Jews who came here at the turn of the last century. They cannot claim to be indigenous to the land. That's about 100 years. And even then, Israel is not looking to send the descendents of those migrants.
The problem is not that Arabs live here among us. The problem is those who think Jews have no right to reclaim our sovereignty even though we won every war waged against us since 1948 and the League of Nations recognized our indigenous rights to the land.
We are not talking about individual land ownership. Of course, there are deeds to land owned by private individuals, Arabs and Jews. That is not the issue. Nobody is stealing private land from anyone. There is plenty of public land that was managed by the Ottomans and the Ottoman land laws were still in effect during the British Mandate. When the modern state of Israel was declared the public lands passed over to Israel. Not private lands. If there are ownership issues, these are handled in the courts.
The issue is one of indigenous status. Yes, The Israelites invaded Canaan and was instructed, according to the Torah, to slaughter all the Canaanites. The Israelites did not do that. But the Canaanites were defeated to such an extent that they then either eventually disappeared or became absorbed into the Israelite tribes. Since the Israelites (Jews) are the earliest still living People who were never totally absent from the land, the Jews are the indigenous population of the Land of Israel. Just like the Maori in NZ, the Amazigh in Morocco, the First Nations in Canada, etc.
The Philistines are a people that came from the Mediterranean Sea and they were not Arabs. They lived only along the Mediterranean coast and they disappeared already in Biblical times. Did you know that the name "Philistines" is not their real name, what they would have called themselves. It is a Hebrew word that means "invaders."
Jordan was never a country before the UK turned it into one. The Hashemites are from Saudi Arabia and they were transplanted into the region as a reward for help during WWII. Jordan has its own problems with Palestinians who are the majority population in the towns. They are systematically taking away their citizenship and no Gazans have citizenship there. There is so much to know, to learn, about this part of the world.
> Yes, Muslims today think that dhimmi status is the proper status for Jews and Christians even today.
In fact dhimmi status is enforced exactly nowhere. Please correct me if there are exceptions.
> I am not suggesting that those who have been here for generations be transferred out
Glad to hear it. Myself, I'm not so much worried about population transfers as I am about just compensation. Israel HAD to be Jewish majority didn't it? Everyone knows this.
> In fact, many of the Muslims in Judea-Samaria are Jew who were Islamized upon the Arab Conquest.
No doubt, so what 'are' they? IMHO they are ... people. And people have rights that attach to personhood irrespective of religion or race.
> ... They cannot claim to be indigenous to the land.
Sorting all that out won't be easy but I take your point. No question that a great many Arabs 'wandered in' as the saying goes and they can hardly claim compensation.
> The problem is not that Arabs live here among us. The problem is those who think Jews have no right to reclaim our sovereignty even though we won every war waged against us since 1948 and the League of Nations recognized our indigenous rights to the land.
I'm not sure that anyone has the 'right' to reclaim something that hasn't been real for 2000 years. No one else would dream of making such a claim. Nevertheless one should deal with reality -- Palestine has been conquered by the Zionists and they aren't going away. Yes, international law recognizes Israel. Nuts, the PA recognizes Israel. That's my starting point -- the legal boundaries of Israel.
> We are not talking about individual land ownership. Of course, there are deeds to land owned by private individuals, Arabs and Jews. That is not the issue. Nobody is stealing private land from anyone.
Actually that is *exactly* what I'm talking about. You do know that when the new state of Israel was formed they parceled out land to the invaders using the existing land titles? It wasn't a 'land rush' like in Oklahoma, that would be far to chaotic. Nope, Itzahk was given title to Mr. Aziz's farm within it's surveyed and legal borders. Schlomo got Mr. Abdullah's place. Very orderly. They even kept the Ottoman unit for area, the 'dunam'.
> There is plenty of public land that was managed by the Ottomans and the Ottoman land laws were still in effect during the British Mandate. When the modern state of Israel was declared the public lands passed over to Israel.
Yeah, that's acceptable. Public lands are the property of the state.
> Not private lands. If there are ownership issues, these are handled in the courts.
Not true, see above.
> The issue is one of indigenous status.
No, IMHO the issue is one of legal title.
> Yes, The Israelites invaded Canaan and was instructed, according to the Torah, to slaughter all the Canaanites. The Israelites did not do that. But the Canaanites were defeated to such an extent that they then either eventually disappeared or became absorbed into the Israelite tribes. Since the Israelites (Jews) are the earliest still living People who were never totally absent from the land, the Jews are the indigenous population of the Land of Israel. Just like the Maori in NZ, the Amazigh in Morocco, the First Nations in Canada, etc.
So then the surviving Celts can push everyone else out of Britain? Indians can 'reclaim' all of the Americas? Your summary above is not inaccurate but what it boils down to is that you are claiming that a people who have lived in Poland for 1500 years can dispossess the people who have lived in Palestine for 1000 years based on the former's sense of racial/religious continuity with a tribe who have *not* controlled Palestine for 2000 years -- half a dozen empires have owned it sequentially since. Nope, using your logic I'd say the Edomites have a stronger claim than Polish Ashkenazim.
> The Philistines are a people that came from the Mediterranean Sea and they were not Arabs.
True, I should have said 'Canaanites' as you did.
> They lived only along the Mediterranean coast and they disappeared already in Biblical times.
That's simply incorrect. Half of the OT is the story of the Hebrews fighting with them. The Bible *claims* that under Solomon they were finally defeated, but even that's debatable. Seems they didn't really cease to exist until the Persians conquered the place. The Romans still used their name for the territory.
But isn't the point that trying to figure out who the 'real' owners of some patch of land that's changed hands a dozen times is not really doable based on ancient tribal history? Religion? So in the 21st century we have religious title, exercised by atheists? Race? Again, the Arabs are more full blooded Semites than the Ashkenazim. It simply doesn't work.
> It is a Hebrew word that means "invaders."
There are a dozen derivatives. They were there before the Hebrews, so who is the 'invader' is debatable. As you admit, there can be no question that the Hebrews were themselves invaders. Everyone is a stinking invader. This entire approach is absurd! You can't find the 'real' owners of any land except for those who hold legal title to it! You want my land? Easy, buy it from me.
> Jordan was never a country before the UK turned it into one.
Nowhere was a country until someone turned it into one. It's nearly as impossible to figure out who has the legitimate polity over the place as it is to figure out which tribe owns it. I say let's try law: Israel is the legitimate polity within it's legitimate borders. Want more land? Buy it. But please don't tell me that Yahweh gave it to you or that your 2000 year old tribal-title is still valid. Celts! Arise and drive out the: Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Normans, Germans, and (now) the Negros and Muslims and Poles and Lithuanians. Really?
>In fact dhimmi status is enforced exactly nowhere. Please correct me if there are exceptions.
>>As Hillel Neuer asked in his famous speech in the UN: Algeria, where are your Jews? etc etc etc
>Glad to hear it. Myself, I'm not so much worried about population transfers as I am about just compensation. Israel HAD to be Jewish majority didn't it? Everyone knows this.
>>Of course Israel has to have a Jewish majority in order to be a Jewish state. The partition plan was for the purpose of having Israel in areas that already had a Jewish majority and an Arab state in areas where there was an Arab majority. The Arabs did not call themselves Palestinians back then even though they held British Mandate passports that called them Palestinians because back then the Palestinians were the Jews. Anyway, when the Arabs rejected the partition plan that the Jews accepted, they began a war against the Jews, not against Israel, but against the Jews. Had the Arabs accepted the partition plan, Israel would be a far smaller place than it is today. So what compensation do we need to give to those who started a war against us and lost?
> In fact, many of the Muslims in Judea-Samaria are Jew who were Islamized upon the Arab Conquest. ...people have rights that attach to personhood irrespective of religion or race.
>>They have rights. The Arabs in the Palestinian Authority are citizens of the PA, vote there when the PA deems it okay to have elections, their affairs are run by the PA -- education, health, welfare ministries, for example. What rights do the PA citizens not have? Well, they don't have the right to vote in Israeli elections. Apartheid? No, they are citizens of the PA, not Israel. That is what the Oslo Accords were all about -- creating a new political entity called the Palestinian Authority. Had they just got to the business of building a state, then the PA would have been the State of Palestine decades ago. Instead, they regard ALL of Israel as occupied territories. They want me out of Haifa. I have been told that to my face.
> I'm not sure that anyone has the 'right' to reclaim something that hasn't been real for 2000 years. No one else would dream of making such a claim. Nevertheless one should deal with reality -- Palestine has been conquered by the Zionists and they aren't going away. Yes, international law recognizes Israel. Nuts, the PA recognizes Israel. That's my starting point -- the legal boundaries of Israel.
>>Palestine was not conquered by anyone because there was never a country called Palestine. And the PA does NOT recognize Israel. One item in the Oslo Accords was the stipulation that the PLO change its charter to include recognition of Israel. They never did. And there is no legal boundary between Israel and what Jordan called the west bank. There is the green line which is an armistice line, in other words, where everyone was when the War of Independence ended. Jordan occupied Judea-Samaria, killed and ethnically cleansed the entire area of Jews, including the Old City of Jerusalem, until 1967. The green line was never recognized as a border. That was what the Oslo Accords were supposed to do -- define the border between Israel and the PA. We never got that far for various reasons. You want to blame Israel for that? Go ahead, we're used to that.
> Actually that is *exactly* what I'm talking about. You do know that when the new state of Israel was formed they parceled out land to the invaders using the existing land titles? Itzahk was given title to Mr. Aziz's farm within it's surveyed and legal borders. Schlomo got Mr. Abdullah's place. Very orderly. They even kept the Ottoman unit for area, the 'dunam'.
>>You call us invaders? We've been called worse. And no, nobody was given title to Arab privately owned land. There was plenty of public land, registered as public land under Ottoman land laws. And Jews bought land from Arabs and either it became privately owned Jewish land or, if bought with funds raised by Jewish communities around the world, it was added to public land.
>Yeah, that's acceptable. Public lands are the property of the state.
>>Glad you accept that idea. That is the great bulk of the land. Don't believe those little green maps that show so-called Jewish take-over of private land. The maps lie.
> Not private lands. If there are ownership issues, these are handled in the courts. Not true, see above.
>>Yes true, as I explained above.
> So then the surviving Celts can push everyone else out of Britain? Indians can 'reclaim' all of the Americas? Your summary above is not inaccurate but what it boils down to is that you are claiming that a people who have lived in Poland for 1500 years can dispossess the people who have lived in Palestine for 1000 years based on the former's sense of racial/religious continuity with a tribe who have *not* controlled Palestine for 2000 years -- half a dozen empires have owned it sequentially since. Nope, using your logic I'd say the Edomites have a stronger claim than Polish Ashkenazim.
>>There are no more Edomites. I don't know about Celts. The Native Peoples of North America are comprised of various tribes who had specific areas they controlled. Not the entire countries. I won't tell them what they should or can do. The Amazigh are fighting for their rights in Morocco. They want to regain sovereignty over their land that was eaten up by the Arab Conquest. Have you even heard about that? Would you support their fight? I do. And if the Amazigh diaspora around the world came back to the land to fight alongside those who never left, would you call them invaders? After all, the Arab Conquest happened in about the year 700 CE, the point at which they lost their sovereignty.
> They lived only along the Mediterranean coast and they disappeared already in Biblical times.
That's simply incorrect. Half of the OT is the story of the Hebrews fighting with them. The Bible *claims* that under Solomon they were finally defeated, but even that's debatable. Seems they didn't really cease to exist until the Persians conquered the place. The Romans still used their name for the territory.
>> Solomon's time is still Biblical times. As was the time of the Babylonian Conquest, at which time the Philistines are believed to have ceased to exist. And the Greeks used the name Palestine before the Romans did. You just don't hear about that.
>The Arabs are more full blooded Semites than the Ashkenazim. It simply doesn't work.
>> We Jews are a People, not a religion. We are not a blood-determined ethnic group because we accept (but do not seek) converts. And the Palestinians are made up not just of Arabs but also Bosnian Muslims, Kurds, and more
> Nowhere was a country until someone turned it into one. It's nearly as impossible to figure out who has the legitimate polity over the place as it is to figure out which tribe owns it. . . . Negros and Muslims and Poles and Lithuanians. Really?
>> I never once referred to God in anything I wrote. Our archaeology shows that the Jews are indigenous to this land. We did not ask for more land. When the war ended in 1948, we got to busy building a country. We would not started any war and certainly not for land. We would still not be in Judea-Samaria and not even in the Old City of Jerusalem had our neighbours not tried to exterminate us. Remember -- for them ALL of Israel is occupied territory.
The Palestinians do not fight us over land -- they fight us because they don't believe we have any right to be here at all unless it is under Islam. Dar al Islam -- heard of that? This is a religious war. Any land that was once under Islamic rule must remain under Islamic rule.
It is strange that you would leave out the fact that Ariel Sharon sent 50,000 troops into Gaza in 2005 to forcibly remove every Israeli settler and to give Gaza to the Palistinians, unconditionally.
Surely you remember that little detail? Because I remember. I also remember all of the demonstrations back then with people holding signs saying "FREE GAZA". Well, what did Gaza do with all that freedom? It elected Hamas.
Hm. Hamas runs a lot the way cartels run. They provided food, healthcare, "protection" etc when there wasn't any to be had. That's why they got elected.
Peace is in the hands of the Gazans and inhabitants of the West Bank. If you WANT peace, work for it. Earn it.
As long as you are preaching about killing Jews, working to kill Jews, and actually DOING it, why would any sane nation do anything but fence you in and point guns at you?
And this would apply to ANY people, but it applies particularly to the Jews, who have known oppression everywhere they have gone for 2,000 years, who even now are exempt from the "tolerance" of the Left, and who lost millions dead in horrible ways less than a hundred years ago.
I feel no pity for you people. You are stupid. If you love your kids, you will build peace. You will teach your kids peace. You will practice peace. And much good will come of it.
But as long as you choose death, why would it not come to you in torrents?
I will also wonder aloud if the Nakba created a crisis of faith for many Muslims, at least at a deep, unconscious level. If God exists, is named Allah, and is all powerful and on the side of Muslims, how did the Jews win in 1948? I doubt anyone would have gotten even a hundred to one odds they would survive. They had no Army, no Navy, no government worth mentioning, few weapons, lesser numbers, and they were invaded by professional Armies on literally every side with no real chance to prepare. How did they survive?
If we believe in a God who intervenes in history and picks sides, is it not obvious God chose the Jews? That has to be a very, very sore spot for many Muslims, and I will wonder aloud if there is not some quasi-theological underpinnings to much of this conflict, in the sense of needing to prove something to validate their religious beliefs.
Jews aren't supposed to speak or even write the name of their God (often written a "G-d") while Muslims are certain to scream out the name of theirs as they pull the firing pin on a grenade and hurl it at a group of Israeli children.
Both pray a lot, though. If prayer were a scientific hypothesis, the test in 1948 yielded a strong positive for one side and a profound negative for the other.
My point is that reconquering Israel arguably has come to be seen as a validation of Islam itself. If their Allah could not win for them an easy victory, in what was purportedly a righteous cause, what is the point of any of it? I doubt many have asked this openly, but I suspect it is on their minds.
And of course I would point out that perhaps it was NOT a righteous cause, then or now, and that Allah in fact IS just and merciful. That's a possibility too.
I understood your point and it seems a very valid one. Good luck posing the question though. "Perhaps Allah does not intend for you to be victorious in wiping out the State of Israel and all within it? After 75 years of continuous failure maybe it's time to reevaluate."
From my perspective, I see Muslims using their religion more as an excuse for blind hatred and warmongering than necessarily the principal motivation for it. These are not mutually exclusive of course.
"Professional armies"; You mean like Putin's? Like Saddam Insane's? Like that of Antiochos Epiphanes? Not to mention the significant numbers of Jewish soldiers like Dayan who fought with the British and American armies just a few years before. Being good at war seems to be in their their genes. Three times Rome had to muster armies of equivalent of six legions and change before they did for the Jews. Rome FFS. Even Hannibal pales; and in those three wars the Jews weren't exactly united. Talk about 'Cast a Giant Shadow'.
They were at least organized, had logistical organizations, leadership, and the like.
Yes, they were patently mediocre. They should have won easily. And yes, much of the Bible is Jews kicking ass against all odds.
But what interests me is that in the same sense the Holocaust caused the Jews in many cases to doubt the benevolence of God, so too did the Nakba--probably--for at least more thoughtful Muslims, making their own reconquista a necessary imperative to revalidate and reenergize their own faith.
See now: Yonatan Adler; The Origins of Judaism: An Archaeological-Historical Reappraisal.
We can say from the Elephantine Papyrii, Monotheism let alone Judaism as such didn't exist at 406BC; nor was there any split between the temples at Gerizim and Jerusalem. Ezra/Nehemiah is thus falsified.
Much of the core of the TaNaKh now seems to be dependent on Plato.
At this point in time nothing remotely reliable can be found before around c.160BC and the advent of the Hasmonean kingdom on the collapse of Seleukid power in Syria-Palestine.
Only 1 & 2 Macabees and Daniel might record anything real; and Macabees has dropped out of Judeo-Xtian scripture as deutero-canonical.
I think most writers believe that much older stories were collated in the late BC's. Job for example may be 3,000 years old, or older. It's impossible to know.
I don't know the history you speak of, but it seems reasonable to think that Judaism per se was codified and standardized some time in the few centuries before the birth of Christ. The tribes involved, though, and their stories, are almost certainly vastly older.
Most scholars think the oldest Vedas date to 1.500 BC or so, but none were written down before about 0 AD, plus or minus maybe 500 years. They were oral traditions, and much of literature from before 0 AD or so falls in that category.
I'm extremely sorry your extended family died in the air strikes. The extended families of Israelis who died by Hamas butchery surely feel the same way you do.
But honestly? The darkness descending upon Gaza is YOUR doing, not Israel's. Not you personally, of course, but you the Palestinian people and your murder cult Hamas.
Gaza was PALESTINE. It has been free of Jews for decades, after Israel decided unilaterally to move every Jew out of Gaza and relocate them to the rest of Israel, then leave the place to Palestinians. Israel gave you everything you needed to live well, from land to buildings to functioning businesses generating millions in annual revenue. Why did Israel do this?
Because you insisted that's what you wanted: a place of your own that you, not Israel, managed and governed and ran. Israel gave it to you for free.
Had the residents of Gaza accepted that gift and lived in peace--i.e., not firing rockets into Israel, not digging tunnels through which to invade Israel and kidnap its citizens, not building bombs from material diverted from humanitarian aid shipments, not put millions of dollars into government officials' slush funds instead of spending it on everyday Palis--Israel would not have bothered to build a "security fence," It would not have bothered to keep hundreds of troops around that wall 24/7/365 to gar your terrorists from Israel. It would not have bothered to build bomb shelters throughout Israel to keep every citizen safe from your rocket attacks. It would not have spent the billions of shekels it takes to provide security from a hostile Gaza that had zero Jews in its midst.
To repeat: Israel pulled every single Jew and IDF soldier out of Gaza years ago. It left you the keys to all the factories, vineyards, farms, equipment, and high-revenue businesses like flower exports and produce. It cleared all the homes and apartment buildings of Jews so you could move in. You elected your own people to your own government. After the pullout, your people waltzed through border security with little effort so you could work in and visit Israel freely. That tightened drastically as Hamas rained rockets into Israel, but for the past several months, it had loosened, and your people were working in Israel again. You had the Palestinian dream in your hands--your own homeland, which could have become the State of Gaza if played right.
What did you do instead?
You elected Hamas, a 7th Century fundamentalist Islamic terror group, as your government. The rockets, bombs, and murders began. Israel was forced to tighten the border. You killed still more Jews. More tightening. You rioted and kidnapped. Still more tightening. Then a bit of loosening as the terror shrank back . . .
Then the slaughter of last weekend by Hamas.
Nakba II in 2023, like Nakba I in 1948, is ENTIRELY Palestinians' doing. "Open-air prison" my ass. Jews were leaving you alone to do your thing and instead of responding in kind you started blowing them up. You murdered their children and raped their women and kidnapped foreign visitors and slaughtered any Jew who got within AK range.
Israel is going to annihilate Hamas and kill a lot of your families in the process, even though it doesn't want to do the latter, only the former. You could have avoided that by living in Gaza in peace. You chose otherwise.
Thanks, Boris. This has been building up in me for awhile and it was time to put it into words. Palestinians had the opportunity to prove to the world they could handle a state. They had Gaza all to themselves, stripped of Jews and Israeli soldiers, and containing a strong economic base, a 100-mile seafront, land, and free housing and commercial property thanks to the Israeli abandonment. What did they do with it?
And why are these things mutually exclusive? Why is living in peace alongside Israelis not an option? Because they hate Jews. Not hard to follow these breadcrumbs.
Have you visited Israel and the Middle East? Really hard to distinguish what’s going on without first hand knowledge. Hold your hate; it’s just not productive.
You can love Israel and be critical of the people leading it. Some are critical precisely because they so badly want it to succeed and are anguished when they see it going astray. The opposite of what you think.
Nor the fact that Israel pulled out completely 18 years ago, and there was no secure border until Hamas - with genocide against Jews in its public charter - took over 2 years later.
And no mention either of the missing billions in international aid. Perhaps that would account for the poor living conditions?
Also no mention of the fact that Egypt despises them and the president of Egypt also told the Gazans to stay. It is only ISRAEL that gives them the hope of a better life with work visas and for some reason he thinks they shouldn’t go to Israel. He doesn’t realize that ISRAEL does not need them, they need ISRAEL.
Amjad has chosen his side; just as all first-gen Americans have done. They've come to America to escape the "Two Tribes Go To War" bullshit of wherever they've egressed from. He is quite obviously more of an "us" than a "them".
No one has to pay cult to such a simple-minded trope as to have to continuously re-affirm that every other sentence. Just as I do not have to preface for any Leftist fucktard any comment I make on the politics du jour with boiler-plate "I am NOT a Nazi. Can I please suck your dick?".
Or closer to home, because I'm of English Catholic heritage, if I make criticism of the DUP or the Northern Ireland Office, I do not have to say I've no truck with the feckin' Provos or Sin Fein every five minutes. Grow up.
But in this case it's relevant. What is happening right now in Gaza is a direct result of Hamas's terrorism and its ideological hold on Gaza and Palestinian territories. It *is* somewhat incumbent on Palestinians, there and abroad, to acknowledge the role that Hamas has played in their oppression and poverty.
Mr. Abukwaik, you write a touching memoir about the Gaza you grew up in. What you don't reveal is whether or not you support the recent Hamas action and why. That is something I would want to know so I can understand the Palestinian viewpoint from what appears to be an average Palestinian. Please respond. Thank you.
I feel terribly for this man. I also feel terribly for the people in Cuba and Venezuela who live under oppressive regimes that, like Hamas in Gaza, hold them as slaves for the benefit of the upper classes.
However, it was their support that allowed the horrible monsters - Sinwar, Castro, and Chavez - to take over. Stein's Law states that if something cannot go on forever, it will stop. And hate and evil can never go on forever. These regimes have always had an expiration date.
It appears that Hamas and Gaza will be the first of these to fall. Hamas' leaders have carried their people to the precipice of disaster based on a combination of hate, pride, and religious madness. The price will be most horrendous, and as is always the case in history, it is the poorest and least able to pay, the lowest, who will foot the bill.
If these people can take the opportunity now to rise up and overthrow their leaders, now is the time. Otherwise, they must suffer their fate.
Without Iran there is no Hamas . Imagine how much better off the Palestinians would be if it were not for Iran and it’s willingness to spread radical ideology.
Iran didn't start Hamas. Hamas began in the 90s as an offshoot of the Suni Muslim Brotherhood which is deeply hostile to Iran. Iran made a strategic decision in the oughts to coopt Hamas in order to create another proxy on Israel's border.
Zero support in the rest of the Arab world which fears the Muslim Brotherhood. They were always a threat to cause violence and mayhem but not as great a threat as since Iran got involved.
This was a very interesting piece on several levels. But above all, the lack of any mention whatsoever, let alone a condemnation, of the barbaric atrocities committed inside Israel I found most interesting. There’s more to say, but I’ll leave it at that.
The Palestinian's piece was emotive but not substantive. Why are children living amongst rats in a territory where money pours in from all sides? Why does their government permit this? We know why. The millions of aid money goes for priorities like terror tunnels and UNRWA does not provide for these children because they are corrupt and do Hamas's bidding. I am sorry for his losses, but he makes no connection between Hamas strategies of using their people as human shields and the need for Israel to retaliate for the genocidal attack on them. It was "kitsch", sorry to say, and also sorry to say that it is typically Arab - poor us, the blame for our rotten situation totally lies with others. Who allowed Hamas to assume leadership? Who still supports them? Latest poll on Gaza 50%. I understand the Free Press is trying to be "balanced" but there must be someone better than this as a representative of the Gazan perspective.
I found it interesting that the writer accidently substantiated the fact that parents in Gaza send their children to harass soldiers. His own mother woke him up in the middle of the night and sent him out into a situation where he could easily have been hurt or killed. What changed her mind from earlier that day? Who pressured her to risk her son's life?
Since 2005, the Arabs living in Gaza have had the right of self determination, the ability to define who they want to be as a people and a nation. They chose violence, murder and destruction, rather than peaceful coexistence. The blame for the death of your nine family members, as well as the impoverished lives you describe, lies 100% at the feet of Hamas and residents of Gaza and the rest of the Arab world that enable Hamas to exist and flourish.
He made it clear his "problem" is with the state of Israel, not with the psychopathic terrorists who spend their money on bombs while their people live among rats.
Bari, it took courage and fairness to run this story. You are a good person and a truth seeker. Thank you. I deeply respect and appreciate you and Free Press. And to the author, I send love and prayers for you, for the family you lost, for Palestinians, for Jews. For the world.
I know a German guy who owns a pharmacy.
I’m sure somebody has a book that compiles a bunch of sad stories from Germany. I’m also sure they didn’t release the book during the war unless they wanted to help the Germans.
Or maybe we should send the remaining WWII veterans to The Hague for war crimes and pay reparations to Germany. I’m sure their electricity went out at one point during the war.
I hope Biden lets in 700,000 ‘Palestinian’ refugees so everyone learns their lesson the hard way.
My family was extremely lucky, both sides fled from forces that wanted to butcher them, from China and Germany (an example of Jews wandering the earth and knowing they are never safe). The strangest story is my Aunt who was a nurse, a Jew, and a lesbian who worked for the Red Cross and was in Berlin throughout WWII. I think she told us where she worked was across from Gestapo HQ in Berlin. I visited her in Berlin in the early 70's and she introduced me to her friends Maria and her husband. Maria was her friend and helped her throughout the war. I suppose Aunt Erna helped her too. Maria's husband was in the Wehrmacht and fought in WWII. I hope these bright lights in the darkness are there today in Israel and Gaza. https://www.holocaustcenter.org/berlins-jewish-hospital/
Thank you so much for sharing your family's stories. ❤️
Seems like Nikki Haley is on board 🙄
This.
Yes, thanks Bari for giving us a glimpse from the other side of the fence. A mad dog is a mad dog, still one can ask where and how it contracted rabies. One must shoot it just the same, but if you know that it was deliberately infected, the morality of the situation changes somewhat.
Neither the author nor the children in his family who died this week are mad dogs who need to be killed. Nor is any Israeli. How presumptuous and poor spirited. Morality? Perhaps start by taking a page out of Bari's book and finding your own humanity.
I was referring to Hamas. But that is far from clear in context, thanks for pointing it out. Sheesh! it does sound like I'm referring to the author, my bad. Yes, mea maxima culpa.
I understood you
Thanks for clarifying! :)
Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I actually make that mistake rather often -- I broaden out the topic but is sounds like I'm talking about the specific.
I couldn't have said it better.
A succinct summary of the situation, in case it seems too complicated to understand:
A group of psychopaths say "we will butcher you and your children."
So you put up a fence.
People cry: "You've put these poor things in a cage!"
Then they break down the fence and butcher us and our children.
And people cry: "What did you expect?! You put them in a cage!"
Very, very perfectly said, Liora, thank you. As much as I sympathize with the writer's plight--no one should lose family like that--the tone of the piece enrages me. Israel had cleared out of Gaza and left it for Palestinians to run like the state they insisted they wanted. They had what they claimed they wanted in their hands.
They went the rocket, invasion, and slaughter route instead.
I agree - I hear no acknowledgement of the atrocities perpetrated by his people just last week, nor of the nearly 200 people kidnapped and being tortured this very moment within Gaza: not one mention of Hamas.
Exactly. Bari ran two pieces. One by a Jew who expressed empathy for the Palestinians and a dream of peace for both, and one by a Palestinian who expressed neither. I don’t know any Jews who don’t feel for the people in Gaza or the West Bank. If the rest of the world really felt for those people too, then the rest of the world would disband Hamas and the PLO and demand that the Palestinian people give up their homicidal intent and actually build a functioning civil society with the billions the world gives them annually. If Arabs renounce violence and commit to real peace, the fences will come down. It’s that simple.
From the article: "I love the Jewish people. My issue has always been with the state of Israel." The author left Gaza at 19 and moved to the United States, where he could live in peace with Jewish people.
Hamas knew what it was triggering when it attacked Israel. Hamas slaughtered Israeli children and used Palestinian children as a human shield. There really aren't any good options left for Israel, and that is entirely the fault of Hamas.
This author isn't Hamas. He's an American was once a child in Gaza. He's a man grieving family members killed in the crossfire between Hamas and Israel. His story matters too.
He loves disempowered Jewish people. Dhimmis, if you will. Self-actualized, self-governing Jews not so much.
There are 7.6 million Jewish people in the US. Do you consider them all to be disempowered? Lacking in self-actualization? Not full participants in the Democratic process?
I will certainly concede that he did not make explicit whether he objected to the policies of Israel or the existence of Israel. It could be interpreted either way.
I support the existence of Israel, but not all of their policies. Same as any other nation.
As an expat Israeli I can tell tell you that while many want peace, the percent of people who give a damn about Palestinian lives dwindled significantly since Saturday.
Gee I wonder why.
Look, I understand them. But it's important to not lose our humanity, even in grief.
they can't: the Koran demands it
Nobody wants to deal with the fact that, on average, the Palestinians are full-time victims who have no notion of building, work and responsibility, nor of considering anyone else's plight. And that's not even mentioning the genocidal religion. Tragically, though, the people now in charge in Israel insist on empowering the same type of hoodlums in Jewish uniforms by building them one illegal settlement after another to make sure the Palestinians can't have a contiguous state. Now let's flatten Northern Gaza and kill thousands of civilians, and that's the smart response? Or rather stepping into the trap set by the Arabs and Iran?
It is important to approach this issue honestly and with nuance, avoiding oversimplified comparisons and false moral equivalence. It's important to recognize that the Palestinian community has been extended offers for statehood on multiple occasions—sometimes even before the widespread adoption of the term "Palestinian." Notably, the UN Partition Plan in 1948 proposed providing the Arab population with the most arable and fertile territories, leaving the Jewish population with primarily desert regions and coastal lands. Had this offer been accepted, there is no question that not a single settlement would have been built in the West Bank. Moreover, Israel has shown, more than once, its readiness to evacuate its citizens from settlements to advance peace (Gaza 2005, Yamit 1982), even in the face of considerable internal challenges. Regrettably, the historical record indicates a consistent pattern of hostility towards Israel from Palestinian factions and their Arab allies. This recurrent stance has, over time, weakened their position and deteriorated the likelihood of a viable solution. Yet, the blame is often shifted to the Israeli government, specific groups within Israel, western powers, or other external factors...but never their own leadership, never the organizations that force their plight, never themselves.
Right. And although I can appreciate Uwe’s comment, he offers Israel no solution to the murderous cult intent on killing every Jew in the world.
Agree. Well said.
You can't start thinking of the plight of others until you are comfortable yourself. For example, is a homeless mother of two kids going to think about the plight of other people--no, she's going to do what she needs to do for her and her children to survive. It's only when your own basic needs (food, clothes, shelter) are met that you can start to think of others.
Israel absolutely has the right to root out Hamas and the slaughter that occurred last weekend was evil in the purest sense in that many in Hamas were LAUGHING as they killed people which I don't think has happened in Israel or much in the U.S. (though Abu Graib made me question that).
That doesn't mean someone with family in Gaza isn't going to feel sad when their relatives are killed or wounded.
Nope. Not one. And Hamas wouldn't touch him here. So he could say that if he wanted to.
Where the rubber meets the road, he put 5000 miles of ocean between himself; his family; and toxicity. He walked away from Omelas. Several million more people need to do the same.
While I agree in concept, he was in a position to do so. Many others aren't and are stuck there. That said, there needs to be a general uprising against the toxicity of the regime they elected. Even if Hamas was "elected" at the point of a gun, 2 million people can take out that regime should they so choose. So far, I see nothing that indicates they even care about running their own lives peacefully. They had the chance before Hamas came in ... and nothing changed.
I was reading Kevin Williamson in The Dispatch this morning. He wrote:
"The Palestinian people have legitimate grievances, and I myself have tried my very best to give a damn about them. But you only get to blow up so many pizza shops. You start beheading children and murdering young mothers and torturing people so viciously and inhumanely that parents pray that their children will be found dead (link to https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/11/israel-father-reaction-daughter-killed-kibbutz-hamas-attack-clarissa-ward-dnt-nn-vpx.cnn) rather than discovered to have been taken hostage into Gaza, then you and your legitimate grievances and any United Nations resolution you want to cite can all go rot. There aren’t two sides to this story. We ought not pretend that there are.
Before he became … whatever it is he has become … J. D. Vance wrote an interesting and useful book, which you may remember, called "Hillbilly Elegy." He ended it with an exasperated but sympathetic plea to his hillbilly people: "Come on, already. Get it together, people. You’ve been through hard times, I know, but now, you have to take care of yourselves and do it for yourselves. Stop making excuses. Take control of your lives." Not in those words, of course; this is my paraphrase. [...]
History moves on, and, if you get left behind—it may not be your *fault*, but it is still your *problem*. The Israeli forces should be the least of the mortal worries afflicting those Hamas killers—if the Palestinians had any self-respect, it would be *them* taking the lead in putting an end to the power of these monsters, who are homicidal maniacs when it comes to the Jews but who haven’t done the Palestinians a lick of good, either. But, unhappily, the one almost universally shared assumption of modern diplomatic discourse is that the Palestinian Arabs are something less than whole and complete human beings, that they are not advanced enough to be true moral actors because they do not have the strength of national character to bear the moral weight that falls exclusively upon the shoulders of the Israelis and the peoples of the other liberal democratic states. The Palestinians, according to this line of thought, just bounce around like windup toys, and only the Israelis, the Americans, and the Europeans can be expected to behave like responsible adults. Nobody ever puts it exactly that way, of course, but that’s the upshot. The Palestinians are treated by their so-called advocates and benefactors as though they were a nation of people who have no agency and, hence, no responsibility."
Article at https://thedispatch.com/newsletter/wanderland/left-behind-by-history (It's probably behind their paywall.)
Thanks for this, jhc. I love me some Kevin Williamson; even when we don't agree, he's such a good reporter and interpreter he makes me think about WHY I disagree. I'll check it out.
To your main point, yes. We're treating Palestinians with the "soft bigotry of low expectations," as if they are children who need minding rather than adults who should have been three generations into their new lives by now. Israel literally set them free in Gaza and they wrecked the joint pouting instead of rubbing their hands and saying, "I'm gonna double revenue by this time next year, Bro. Get all the village kids over here, I have paying jobs for 'em."
Great points jhc. Couldn't agree more. This is exactly why the Palestinians fit into the left's "victim" box and garner sympathy and protests even after committing barbaric acts.
They're Kevin Williamson's points, of course. I think they're good ones.
I recommend reading his entire column, if you're able to access it.
Thank you for that link to the video on CNN. That father's story affected me much more than all the pictures and videos I've seen so far, including the pictures of the headless babies. My mind just couldn't seem to grasp or relate to photos of bloody homes, burned infants or beheaded children. Even videos of people being taken hostage or shot at seemed surreal. But as a mother, this father's story really broke through my numbness. Thank you!
I understand. I'm a grandfather and found that CNN video painful to watch.
(Credit for including the CNN link should go to Kevin Williamson, of course.)
It’s rather like the black inner city in America that continually votes for Democrats who do not facilitate sane policies - like policing, education etc - leaving their communities in a constant state of disarray. A political ideology that perpetuates ‘victimhood’ will never actually cure the believer and bring him or her to a good life. We say to the Palestinians, leave your dysfunctional life, seek peace and a healthier environment. But we should also be saying that to the captured black American inner cities as well.
Just made that exact point in my text group after pasting in part of the KDW quote above. American liberals very much treat black people the same way - agency-less driftwood being tossed around by the currents who can only be saved by White Knights.
Agree.. but on the same hand, about 40% of the Gazan population is under 18. They don't have political power much less maturity for that sort of organizing? That said, the adults that do live in Gaza.. and those abroad.. need to get the "religion" that Hamas/Hezbollah/etc are the causes of their miseries, not Israel. If Gaza and other Palestinian territories - and the Arab sponsor states - would stop pressing an eliminationist rhetoric against Israel, and of course, sponsoring terroristic acts, the Palestinian people would have more freedom, more prosperity, and more bargaining power.
I appreciated the publishing of this essay, and do think it's important to hear and understand Palestinian voices, but what was missing (for me) was the condemnation of Hamas and these acts of violence, and any sort of acknowledgement that so many Gazans live in poverty is due to the ideology that Hamas promotes, where youth spend more time "protesting" Israel than they do in building Gaza into a livable region, which is 100% tied to how much Palestinians continue to support extremism and seem to prefer this "oppression" that comes as a result. Acknowledge Israel's right to exist, accept the "two state" solution, and the blockades and the rest will recede into history, and Palestinians can focus on their own society rather than trying to destroy another one.
Thanks for this, 'Cat. Definitely agree on the importance of this essay and most of what Bari publishes. I like to see as many views as possible to refine my own.
I believe Israelis and Palestinians could settle their differences IF Palis had a strong and visionary leader. Palestinians need a new Saladin, one who's smart, charismatic, powerful, and commands respect of the people, in order to negotiate a deal that both Palis and Israelis can live with. Hamas and PA/PLO aren't it, the latter being weak and corrupt tea and the former a 7th Century fundamentalist death cult for Islam.
I'm not sure I understand these comments. They are written as if Gazans can vote for who they choose. Hamas has been running it not as a political party, but as a military oligarchy with total control. This has been the case since 2007. There have not been elections since.
Taking out a military oligarchy sounds nice, but try it when you have funding from countries with 50x+ your GDP supporting the oligarchy, and a strong right wing party in Israel (100x+ your GDP) choosing to foster that oligarchy's success as well.
Just curious, who should take them? We have already seen across Europe that middle eastern refugees have caused huge social issues, as those group are not assimilating and instead are bringing many of the same cultural issues that they fled from.
Similar to people here fleeing blue cities and then voting for the same policies that caused them to have to flee, I suspect there are a number of folks from Palestine that might want the prosperity of another country, but are not looking to change to fit that new country.
Good question. And it's been an awkward question for decades why Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt wouldn't take the Palestinians in.
Jordan out and out refused to take any Gazan refugees. The Gazans currently living in Jordan had their citizenship revoked some time ago and they will not be allowed citizenship ever again. Other Palestinians living in Jordan are systematically and slowly having their citizenship revoked and they only find out when they go to renew their driver's licenses and find they cannot.
"He walked away from Omelas."
Ursula must be smiling. And kudos for the post.
By far my favourite Science Fiction author in the round; and Earthsea only has peers in Middle Earth and the Discworld as far as I'm concerned. My favourite shorts are 'Winter's King'. and 'Darkness Box'. 'Left-Hand of Darkness' and 'The Disposessed' for the novels. She had far more philosophical and moral bottom than even the cream of the field in the round. YMMV.
The writer doesn't even mention this.
However it's not the Palestinian people. It's Hamas that is doing this. The people are stuck under Hamas rule.
Not buying that, Theresa, at least not entirely. Hamas represents the deepest feelings of Palestinians more than we want to believe.
The Gaza pullout by Israel was the closest thing they had to a state. Unlike West Bank, the land is a single piece and contiguous, with defined borders and a long seafront. They had billion-dollar businesses in Gaza, handed to them by Israel on departure. The land was stripped of all its Jews and soldiers BY Jews and soldiers. Gaza was exactly what they'd demanded Israel give them--freedom.
Instead of prospering, they shot themselves in the head and whined it was the Jews's fault.
I strongly believe that most (not all) Palestinians hate themselves for their self-inflicted calamities in 1948, 1967, 1973, two broken Intifadas, and failure to take back any of the land they forfeited by those losses. They didn't even try in Gaza. It's hard to sympathize with people who refuse to dig a foundation when handed the shovels, concrete, and wood for free.
I just read somewhere they were handed all these beautiful high tech greenhouses in Gaza, and the Palestinians just came and looted them all after the Israeli pullout.
Yep, that's exactly what happened. Gaza had a thriving, multimillion-dollar industry growing flowers for export. Also produce, lots of it. When Israel pulled out, they left all those businesses intact and contracts open. Pals destroyed everything.
Just like civilian Gazans followed the terrorists into at least one kibbutz (there is a video showing that) -- one of these civilians was an old man using a cane, so cannot argue that he is a "militant". Of course, they went to the kibbutz to loot what was left after homes were burned to the ground.
I hadn't seen that, Sheri. Damn. Poisonous.
Seventy five percent of the people in Gaza voted for Hamas (1.5 million) knowing they were ruthless butchers. Israel has not been in Gaza since 2005. All you have heard is propaganda.
First of all I am not listening to propaganda. I'm trying to make sense of all this tragedy. Secondly maybe the Palestinians didn't feel they had any other choice but to vote for Hamas.
"Maybe the Krauts didn't feel they had any choice but Adolf" That would be a *'king stupid thing to say but that is where you have wound up: with your ethics and morals in the crapper.
What a rude condescending comment. I am not in support of the Palestinians or Hamas. Just trying to understand the entire situation. So GTH
They could have voted for Fattah
Fatah preaches Jew hatred just the same as Hamas. They just pretend to he moderate.
Fatah who also applauded the massacres last week. Political parties and leaders are born out of the character and ethos of the communities who create them.
not much better
They had been given many choices but accepted none. If you are trying to understand why this happened watch “ They are lying about the land” ( w/Robert Spenser) on YouTube. Hamas is compare able to ISSI. Far as long as I can remember there has alway been conflict in the Middle East. These are radical people who believe killing your children for Allah is a good thing. They are kinda like the leftist here in America. The UN, America and even Israel have given money to support these people. Israel even supplied utilities so go figure.
When they had a vote in 2006, 90% of Palestinians voted for Hamas. Instead of trying to improve the lot of their people, Hamas buys rockets, bulldozers, motorized paragliders and weapons to murder and kidnap Isrealis and Americans. As President Obama said, elections have consequences.
Unfortunately yes.
"Palestinian" is someone who was attracted to Israel by their prosperity. Before Jews returned to their ancient homeland, it was a barren no-mans land. Jews were the ones to fulfil the prophecy "the desert shall blossom like a rose." (I heard it said that Jews became the victim of their own prosperity).
Jews were named for the word "praise". When their King is revealed as the Messiah they rejected, the tribes of Israel will mourn for him. What a day that will be!
Why does no one talk about Egypt’s wall?
Why indeed....
It's actually pretty simple. Jews are news, and no Jews are no news and therefore completely uninteresting.
Absolutely!
Except it's a bit more complicated than that. 'You' first told the psychopaths that you intended to dispossess them of all that they owned and take over their country. Prior to that, you had lived among them more or less unmolested for 2000 years -- little butchering of you or your children. Very few people are born psychopaths, but one can certainly cultivate them given enough brutality and humiliation. Even now I suspect the majority of Palestinians would rather just live and let live given half a chance to exist as normal people of a normal country. But there is something about the boot of the occupier that makes people rather nasty. And yes, some would be nasty anyway.
well, I guess the odd pogrom here and there doesn't mean that the dhimmi Jews who lived among the Moslems (who invaded and occupied the land beginning in about the year 700 CE) were "more or less unmolested". I guess a pogrom here and there qualifies as "little butchering". And the Arabs have been in the Land of Israel for less than 1000 years. Oh well, what's 1000 years between friends!
Yes, the odd pogrom here and there is par for the course isn't it? Humans have historically butchered each other so often that in the past it took a death toll in the hundreds of thousands to be even worthy of note. Now, a mere few hundred make the news -- that's progress.
And since, historically, *everyone* discriminated against everyone else, dhimmi status was -- by the standards of the time -- rather enlightened. Contrast the treatment of the Jews, in the same era, by the Catholics for some idea what I'm trying to say. Bottom line is that Jews have a small but extant continuity in Palestine throughout the domination of the Muslims. Persecuted, yes, exterminated, no.
Less than a thousand years you say? That's hardly time to get unpacked, is it? Obviously another people, who have been mostly living elsewhere for two thousand years are the real owners, yes? Ah, wait ... the Hebrews were themselves conquerors, and the Bible cheerfully relates their complete extermination of one city after another (even the animals). Joshua and Hamas had similar attitudes, no? The place really belongs to the Philistines, if any of them can still be found. But wait ... the Philistines weren't the first, either.
Of course you've seen this:
https://blog.ninapaley.com/2012/10/01/this-land-is-mine/
In my opinion, religious title is an idea fit for the middle ages, especially when invoked by atheists. You know who owns the land? Why, it's the individual title holders, that's who. Who owns Mr. Aziz's orange grove? The Philistines? The Jews? The Ottomans? The British? The Zionists? ... nope ... Mr. Aziz owns his orange grove, he has the title-deed to prove it, and if he's driven off his land, he should either get it back, or be compensated for it notwithstanding the race or religion or nationality or favorite color of the people dispossessing him.
Yes, Muslims today think that dhimmi status is the proper status for Jews and Christians even today.
I am not suggesting that those who have been here for generations be transferred out (as loser populations have been until the Jews won a war that might have justified transfer -- another improvement in the modern age, eh?). In fact, many of the Muslims in Judea-Samaria are Jew who were Islamized upon the Arab Conquest. A small number of them have bravely asked to rejoin the Jewish People. If Israel actually wins against Hamas=PLO=ISIS, I wonder how many others will rise up and as to convert back to their Jewish roots.
Do you know that the UN declared as a refugee any Arab who was in the Land of Israel for two years and who left under whatever conditions they left before the declaration of Israeli independence as a modern state? Why only two years? That would include all those who migrated to this land since the beginning of the waves of Jews who came here at the turn of the last century. They cannot claim to be indigenous to the land. That's about 100 years. And even then, Israel is not looking to send the descendents of those migrants.
The problem is not that Arabs live here among us. The problem is those who think Jews have no right to reclaim our sovereignty even though we won every war waged against us since 1948 and the League of Nations recognized our indigenous rights to the land.
We are not talking about individual land ownership. Of course, there are deeds to land owned by private individuals, Arabs and Jews. That is not the issue. Nobody is stealing private land from anyone. There is plenty of public land that was managed by the Ottomans and the Ottoman land laws were still in effect during the British Mandate. When the modern state of Israel was declared the public lands passed over to Israel. Not private lands. If there are ownership issues, these are handled in the courts.
The issue is one of indigenous status. Yes, The Israelites invaded Canaan and was instructed, according to the Torah, to slaughter all the Canaanites. The Israelites did not do that. But the Canaanites were defeated to such an extent that they then either eventually disappeared or became absorbed into the Israelite tribes. Since the Israelites (Jews) are the earliest still living People who were never totally absent from the land, the Jews are the indigenous population of the Land of Israel. Just like the Maori in NZ, the Amazigh in Morocco, the First Nations in Canada, etc.
The Philistines are a people that came from the Mediterranean Sea and they were not Arabs. They lived only along the Mediterranean coast and they disappeared already in Biblical times. Did you know that the name "Philistines" is not their real name, what they would have called themselves. It is a Hebrew word that means "invaders."
Jordan was never a country before the UK turned it into one. The Hashemites are from Saudi Arabia and they were transplanted into the region as a reward for help during WWII. Jordan has its own problems with Palestinians who are the majority population in the towns. They are systematically taking away their citizenship and no Gazans have citizenship there. There is so much to know, to learn, about this part of the world.
> Yes, Muslims today think that dhimmi status is the proper status for Jews and Christians even today.
In fact dhimmi status is enforced exactly nowhere. Please correct me if there are exceptions.
> I am not suggesting that those who have been here for generations be transferred out
Glad to hear it. Myself, I'm not so much worried about population transfers as I am about just compensation. Israel HAD to be Jewish majority didn't it? Everyone knows this.
> In fact, many of the Muslims in Judea-Samaria are Jew who were Islamized upon the Arab Conquest.
No doubt, so what 'are' they? IMHO they are ... people. And people have rights that attach to personhood irrespective of religion or race.
> ... They cannot claim to be indigenous to the land.
Sorting all that out won't be easy but I take your point. No question that a great many Arabs 'wandered in' as the saying goes and they can hardly claim compensation.
> The problem is not that Arabs live here among us. The problem is those who think Jews have no right to reclaim our sovereignty even though we won every war waged against us since 1948 and the League of Nations recognized our indigenous rights to the land.
I'm not sure that anyone has the 'right' to reclaim something that hasn't been real for 2000 years. No one else would dream of making such a claim. Nevertheless one should deal with reality -- Palestine has been conquered by the Zionists and they aren't going away. Yes, international law recognizes Israel. Nuts, the PA recognizes Israel. That's my starting point -- the legal boundaries of Israel.
> We are not talking about individual land ownership. Of course, there are deeds to land owned by private individuals, Arabs and Jews. That is not the issue. Nobody is stealing private land from anyone.
Actually that is *exactly* what I'm talking about. You do know that when the new state of Israel was formed they parceled out land to the invaders using the existing land titles? It wasn't a 'land rush' like in Oklahoma, that would be far to chaotic. Nope, Itzahk was given title to Mr. Aziz's farm within it's surveyed and legal borders. Schlomo got Mr. Abdullah's place. Very orderly. They even kept the Ottoman unit for area, the 'dunam'.
> There is plenty of public land that was managed by the Ottomans and the Ottoman land laws were still in effect during the British Mandate. When the modern state of Israel was declared the public lands passed over to Israel.
Yeah, that's acceptable. Public lands are the property of the state.
> Not private lands. If there are ownership issues, these are handled in the courts.
Not true, see above.
> The issue is one of indigenous status.
No, IMHO the issue is one of legal title.
> Yes, The Israelites invaded Canaan and was instructed, according to the Torah, to slaughter all the Canaanites. The Israelites did not do that. But the Canaanites were defeated to such an extent that they then either eventually disappeared or became absorbed into the Israelite tribes. Since the Israelites (Jews) are the earliest still living People who were never totally absent from the land, the Jews are the indigenous population of the Land of Israel. Just like the Maori in NZ, the Amazigh in Morocco, the First Nations in Canada, etc.
So then the surviving Celts can push everyone else out of Britain? Indians can 'reclaim' all of the Americas? Your summary above is not inaccurate but what it boils down to is that you are claiming that a people who have lived in Poland for 1500 years can dispossess the people who have lived in Palestine for 1000 years based on the former's sense of racial/religious continuity with a tribe who have *not* controlled Palestine for 2000 years -- half a dozen empires have owned it sequentially since. Nope, using your logic I'd say the Edomites have a stronger claim than Polish Ashkenazim.
> The Philistines are a people that came from the Mediterranean Sea and they were not Arabs.
True, I should have said 'Canaanites' as you did.
> They lived only along the Mediterranean coast and they disappeared already in Biblical times.
That's simply incorrect. Half of the OT is the story of the Hebrews fighting with them. The Bible *claims* that under Solomon they were finally defeated, but even that's debatable. Seems they didn't really cease to exist until the Persians conquered the place. The Romans still used their name for the territory.
But isn't the point that trying to figure out who the 'real' owners of some patch of land that's changed hands a dozen times is not really doable based on ancient tribal history? Religion? So in the 21st century we have religious title, exercised by atheists? Race? Again, the Arabs are more full blooded Semites than the Ashkenazim. It simply doesn't work.
> It is a Hebrew word that means "invaders."
There are a dozen derivatives. They were there before the Hebrews, so who is the 'invader' is debatable. As you admit, there can be no question that the Hebrews were themselves invaders. Everyone is a stinking invader. This entire approach is absurd! You can't find the 'real' owners of any land except for those who hold legal title to it! You want my land? Easy, buy it from me.
> Jordan was never a country before the UK turned it into one.
Nowhere was a country until someone turned it into one. It's nearly as impossible to figure out who has the legitimate polity over the place as it is to figure out which tribe owns it. I say let's try law: Israel is the legitimate polity within it's legitimate borders. Want more land? Buy it. But please don't tell me that Yahweh gave it to you or that your 2000 year old tribal-title is still valid. Celts! Arise and drive out the: Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Normans, Germans, and (now) the Negros and Muslims and Poles and Lithuanians. Really?
>In fact dhimmi status is enforced exactly nowhere. Please correct me if there are exceptions.
>>As Hillel Neuer asked in his famous speech in the UN: Algeria, where are your Jews? etc etc etc
>Glad to hear it. Myself, I'm not so much worried about population transfers as I am about just compensation. Israel HAD to be Jewish majority didn't it? Everyone knows this.
>>Of course Israel has to have a Jewish majority in order to be a Jewish state. The partition plan was for the purpose of having Israel in areas that already had a Jewish majority and an Arab state in areas where there was an Arab majority. The Arabs did not call themselves Palestinians back then even though they held British Mandate passports that called them Palestinians because back then the Palestinians were the Jews. Anyway, when the Arabs rejected the partition plan that the Jews accepted, they began a war against the Jews, not against Israel, but against the Jews. Had the Arabs accepted the partition plan, Israel would be a far smaller place than it is today. So what compensation do we need to give to those who started a war against us and lost?
> In fact, many of the Muslims in Judea-Samaria are Jew who were Islamized upon the Arab Conquest. ...people have rights that attach to personhood irrespective of religion or race.
>>They have rights. The Arabs in the Palestinian Authority are citizens of the PA, vote there when the PA deems it okay to have elections, their affairs are run by the PA -- education, health, welfare ministries, for example. What rights do the PA citizens not have? Well, they don't have the right to vote in Israeli elections. Apartheid? No, they are citizens of the PA, not Israel. That is what the Oslo Accords were all about -- creating a new political entity called the Palestinian Authority. Had they just got to the business of building a state, then the PA would have been the State of Palestine decades ago. Instead, they regard ALL of Israel as occupied territories. They want me out of Haifa. I have been told that to my face.
> I'm not sure that anyone has the 'right' to reclaim something that hasn't been real for 2000 years. No one else would dream of making such a claim. Nevertheless one should deal with reality -- Palestine has been conquered by the Zionists and they aren't going away. Yes, international law recognizes Israel. Nuts, the PA recognizes Israel. That's my starting point -- the legal boundaries of Israel.
>>Palestine was not conquered by anyone because there was never a country called Palestine. And the PA does NOT recognize Israel. One item in the Oslo Accords was the stipulation that the PLO change its charter to include recognition of Israel. They never did. And there is no legal boundary between Israel and what Jordan called the west bank. There is the green line which is an armistice line, in other words, where everyone was when the War of Independence ended. Jordan occupied Judea-Samaria, killed and ethnically cleansed the entire area of Jews, including the Old City of Jerusalem, until 1967. The green line was never recognized as a border. That was what the Oslo Accords were supposed to do -- define the border between Israel and the PA. We never got that far for various reasons. You want to blame Israel for that? Go ahead, we're used to that.
> Actually that is *exactly* what I'm talking about. You do know that when the new state of Israel was formed they parceled out land to the invaders using the existing land titles? Itzahk was given title to Mr. Aziz's farm within it's surveyed and legal borders. Schlomo got Mr. Abdullah's place. Very orderly. They even kept the Ottoman unit for area, the 'dunam'.
>>You call us invaders? We've been called worse. And no, nobody was given title to Arab privately owned land. There was plenty of public land, registered as public land under Ottoman land laws. And Jews bought land from Arabs and either it became privately owned Jewish land or, if bought with funds raised by Jewish communities around the world, it was added to public land.
>Yeah, that's acceptable. Public lands are the property of the state.
>>Glad you accept that idea. That is the great bulk of the land. Don't believe those little green maps that show so-called Jewish take-over of private land. The maps lie.
> Not private lands. If there are ownership issues, these are handled in the courts. Not true, see above.
>>Yes true, as I explained above.
> So then the surviving Celts can push everyone else out of Britain? Indians can 'reclaim' all of the Americas? Your summary above is not inaccurate but what it boils down to is that you are claiming that a people who have lived in Poland for 1500 years can dispossess the people who have lived in Palestine for 1000 years based on the former's sense of racial/religious continuity with a tribe who have *not* controlled Palestine for 2000 years -- half a dozen empires have owned it sequentially since. Nope, using your logic I'd say the Edomites have a stronger claim than Polish Ashkenazim.
>>There are no more Edomites. I don't know about Celts. The Native Peoples of North America are comprised of various tribes who had specific areas they controlled. Not the entire countries. I won't tell them what they should or can do. The Amazigh are fighting for their rights in Morocco. They want to regain sovereignty over their land that was eaten up by the Arab Conquest. Have you even heard about that? Would you support their fight? I do. And if the Amazigh diaspora around the world came back to the land to fight alongside those who never left, would you call them invaders? After all, the Arab Conquest happened in about the year 700 CE, the point at which they lost their sovereignty.
> They lived only along the Mediterranean coast and they disappeared already in Biblical times.
That's simply incorrect. Half of the OT is the story of the Hebrews fighting with them. The Bible *claims* that under Solomon they were finally defeated, but even that's debatable. Seems they didn't really cease to exist until the Persians conquered the place. The Romans still used their name for the territory.
>> Solomon's time is still Biblical times. As was the time of the Babylonian Conquest, at which time the Philistines are believed to have ceased to exist. And the Greeks used the name Palestine before the Romans did. You just don't hear about that.
>The Arabs are more full blooded Semites than the Ashkenazim. It simply doesn't work.
>> We Jews are a People, not a religion. We are not a blood-determined ethnic group because we accept (but do not seek) converts. And the Palestinians are made up not just of Arabs but also Bosnian Muslims, Kurds, and more
> Nowhere was a country until someone turned it into one. It's nearly as impossible to figure out who has the legitimate polity over the place as it is to figure out which tribe owns it. . . . Negros and Muslims and Poles and Lithuanians. Really?
>> I never once referred to God in anything I wrote. Our archaeology shows that the Jews are indigenous to this land. We did not ask for more land. When the war ended in 1948, we got to busy building a country. We would not started any war and certainly not for land. We would still not be in Judea-Samaria and not even in the Old City of Jerusalem had our neighbours not tried to exterminate us. Remember -- for them ALL of Israel is occupied territory.
The Palestinians do not fight us over land -- they fight us because they don't believe we have any right to be here at all unless it is under Islam. Dar al Islam -- heard of that? This is a religious war. Any land that was once under Islamic rule must remain under Islamic rule.
For example: https://www.aclu.org/wp-content/uploads/legal-documents/ACLURM001331.pdf
Good summary..
It is strange that you would leave out the fact that Ariel Sharon sent 50,000 troops into Gaza in 2005 to forcibly remove every Israeli settler and to give Gaza to the Palistinians, unconditionally.
Surely you remember that little detail? Because I remember. I also remember all of the demonstrations back then with people holding signs saying "FREE GAZA". Well, what did Gaza do with all that freedom? It elected Hamas.
…. And lobbed bombs for 18 years and slaughtered Jews and beheaded babies. Free Gaza indeed.
Hm. Hamas runs a lot the way cartels run. They provided food, healthcare, "protection" etc when there wasn't any to be had. That's why they got elected.
Peace is in the hands of the Gazans and inhabitants of the West Bank. If you WANT peace, work for it. Earn it.
As long as you are preaching about killing Jews, working to kill Jews, and actually DOING it, why would any sane nation do anything but fence you in and point guns at you?
And this would apply to ANY people, but it applies particularly to the Jews, who have known oppression everywhere they have gone for 2,000 years, who even now are exempt from the "tolerance" of the Left, and who lost millions dead in horrible ways less than a hundred years ago.
I feel no pity for you people. You are stupid. If you love your kids, you will build peace. You will teach your kids peace. You will practice peace. And much good will come of it.
But as long as you choose death, why would it not come to you in torrents?
Golda Meir said when they love their children more than they hate the Jews there will be peace.
I will also wonder aloud if the Nakba created a crisis of faith for many Muslims, at least at a deep, unconscious level. If God exists, is named Allah, and is all powerful and on the side of Muslims, how did the Jews win in 1948? I doubt anyone would have gotten even a hundred to one odds they would survive. They had no Army, no Navy, no government worth mentioning, few weapons, lesser numbers, and they were invaded by professional Armies on literally every side with no real chance to prepare. How did they survive?
If we believe in a God who intervenes in history and picks sides, is it not obvious God chose the Jews? That has to be a very, very sore spot for many Muslims, and I will wonder aloud if there is not some quasi-theological underpinnings to much of this conflict, in the sense of needing to prove something to validate their religious beliefs.
Jews aren't supposed to speak or even write the name of their God (often written a "G-d") while Muslims are certain to scream out the name of theirs as they pull the firing pin on a grenade and hurl it at a group of Israeli children.
but no pictures of the prophet!
Both pray a lot, though. If prayer were a scientific hypothesis, the test in 1948 yielded a strong positive for one side and a profound negative for the other.
My point is that reconquering Israel arguably has come to be seen as a validation of Islam itself. If their Allah could not win for them an easy victory, in what was purportedly a righteous cause, what is the point of any of it? I doubt many have asked this openly, but I suspect it is on their minds.
And of course I would point out that perhaps it was NOT a righteous cause, then or now, and that Allah in fact IS just and merciful. That's a possibility too.
I understood your point and it seems a very valid one. Good luck posing the question though. "Perhaps Allah does not intend for you to be victorious in wiping out the State of Israel and all within it? After 75 years of continuous failure maybe it's time to reevaluate."
From my perspective, I see Muslims using their religion more as an excuse for blind hatred and warmongering than necessarily the principal motivation for it. These are not mutually exclusive of course.
There’s nothing quasi about it.
"Professional armies"; You mean like Putin's? Like Saddam Insane's? Like that of Antiochos Epiphanes? Not to mention the significant numbers of Jewish soldiers like Dayan who fought with the British and American armies just a few years before. Being good at war seems to be in their their genes. Three times Rome had to muster armies of equivalent of six legions and change before they did for the Jews. Rome FFS. Even Hannibal pales; and in those three wars the Jews weren't exactly united. Talk about 'Cast a Giant Shadow'.
They were at least organized, had logistical organizations, leadership, and the like.
Yes, they were patently mediocre. They should have won easily. And yes, much of the Bible is Jews kicking ass against all odds.
But what interests me is that in the same sense the Holocaust caused the Jews in many cases to doubt the benevolence of God, so too did the Nakba--probably--for at least more thoughtful Muslims, making their own reconquista a necessary imperative to revalidate and reenergize their own faith.
6000 years.
A long time, however you count it.
Longer than Hamas has been around, to be certain.
Longer than Islam, by several thousand years on all accounts.
See now: Yonatan Adler; The Origins of Judaism: An Archaeological-Historical Reappraisal.
We can say from the Elephantine Papyrii, Monotheism let alone Judaism as such didn't exist at 406BC; nor was there any split between the temples at Gerizim and Jerusalem. Ezra/Nehemiah is thus falsified.
Much of the core of the TaNaKh now seems to be dependent on Plato.
At this point in time nothing remotely reliable can be found before around c.160BC and the advent of the Hasmonean kingdom on the collapse of Seleukid power in Syria-Palestine.
Only 1 & 2 Macabees and Daniel might record anything real; and Macabees has dropped out of Judeo-Xtian scripture as deutero-canonical.
It's myth all the way down, I'm afraid.
Oh dear, how sad, nevermind.
I think most writers believe that much older stories were collated in the late BC's. Job for example may be 3,000 years old, or older. It's impossible to know.
I don't know the history you speak of, but it seems reasonable to think that Judaism per se was codified and standardized some time in the few centuries before the birth of Christ. The tribes involved, though, and their stories, are almost certainly vastly older.
Most scholars think the oldest Vedas date to 1.500 BC or so, but none were written down before about 0 AD, plus or minus maybe 500 years. They were oral traditions, and much of literature from before 0 AD or so falls in that category.
I'm extremely sorry your extended family died in the air strikes. The extended families of Israelis who died by Hamas butchery surely feel the same way you do.
But honestly? The darkness descending upon Gaza is YOUR doing, not Israel's. Not you personally, of course, but you the Palestinian people and your murder cult Hamas.
Gaza was PALESTINE. It has been free of Jews for decades, after Israel decided unilaterally to move every Jew out of Gaza and relocate them to the rest of Israel, then leave the place to Palestinians. Israel gave you everything you needed to live well, from land to buildings to functioning businesses generating millions in annual revenue. Why did Israel do this?
Because you insisted that's what you wanted: a place of your own that you, not Israel, managed and governed and ran. Israel gave it to you for free.
Had the residents of Gaza accepted that gift and lived in peace--i.e., not firing rockets into Israel, not digging tunnels through which to invade Israel and kidnap its citizens, not building bombs from material diverted from humanitarian aid shipments, not put millions of dollars into government officials' slush funds instead of spending it on everyday Palis--Israel would not have bothered to build a "security fence," It would not have bothered to keep hundreds of troops around that wall 24/7/365 to gar your terrorists from Israel. It would not have bothered to build bomb shelters throughout Israel to keep every citizen safe from your rocket attacks. It would not have spent the billions of shekels it takes to provide security from a hostile Gaza that had zero Jews in its midst.
To repeat: Israel pulled every single Jew and IDF soldier out of Gaza years ago. It left you the keys to all the factories, vineyards, farms, equipment, and high-revenue businesses like flower exports and produce. It cleared all the homes and apartment buildings of Jews so you could move in. You elected your own people to your own government. After the pullout, your people waltzed through border security with little effort so you could work in and visit Israel freely. That tightened drastically as Hamas rained rockets into Israel, but for the past several months, it had loosened, and your people were working in Israel again. You had the Palestinian dream in your hands--your own homeland, which could have become the State of Gaza if played right.
What did you do instead?
You elected Hamas, a 7th Century fundamentalist Islamic terror group, as your government. The rockets, bombs, and murders began. Israel was forced to tighten the border. You killed still more Jews. More tightening. You rioted and kidnapped. Still more tightening. Then a bit of loosening as the terror shrank back . . .
Then the slaughter of last weekend by Hamas.
Nakba II in 2023, like Nakba I in 1948, is ENTIRELY Palestinians' doing. "Open-air prison" my ass. Jews were leaving you alone to do your thing and instead of responding in kind you started blowing them up. You murdered their children and raped their women and kidnapped foreign visitors and slaughtered any Jew who got within AK range.
Israel is going to annihilate Hamas and kill a lot of your families in the process, even though it doesn't want to do the latter, only the former. You could have avoided that by living in Gaza in peace. You chose otherwise.
Be careful what you wish for, you WILL get it.
Wow! So well put. I may be embarrassed to ever write a comment again after reading this! Can I have your permission to copy it?
It would be my pleasure, vc, thanks.
‘Jews were leaving you alone to do your thing…’
Well, I guess we know what that thing is.
Excellent piece.
Well said, Shane. Thank you.
Thanks, Boris. This has been building up in me for awhile and it was time to put it into words. Palestinians had the opportunity to prove to the world they could handle a state. They had Gaza all to themselves, stripped of Jews and Israeli soldiers, and containing a strong economic base, a 100-mile seafront, land, and free housing and commercial property thanks to the Israeli abandonment. What did they do with it?
Kill Jews.
This is exactly what I believe, better said than I could say it.
Thanks, Digging, much oblited.
Reminds me of what happened when Allied forces entered German towns in WWII. They were effectively told, no Nazis here, go to the next town.
Well said!
There is a Hamas bunker beneath Al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City. No one contests the fact.
And very likely a rocket launcher on the roof.
I love Jews. I just hate Israel.
Every Jew hater says the same thing.
And why are these things mutually exclusive? Why is living in peace alongside Israelis not an option? Because they hate Jews. Not hard to follow these breadcrumbs.
Why indeed when nearly 2 million of his brethren are actual citizens of Israel proper and most (not all) manage somehow to do just that.
Have you visited Israel and the Middle East? Really hard to distinguish what’s going on without first hand knowledge. Hold your hate; it’s just not productive.
You can love Israel and be critical of the people leading it. Some are critical precisely because they so badly want it to succeed and are anguished when they see it going astray. The opposite of what you think.
Interesting that not once was Hamas mentioned.
Isn't it?
Nor the fact that Israel pulled out completely 18 years ago, and there was no secure border until Hamas - with genocide against Jews in its public charter - took over 2 years later.
And no mention either of the missing billions in international aid. Perhaps that would account for the poor living conditions?
Just a thought.
Yes. This. The Gaza he loves was destroyed by Hamas. Free Palestine from Hamas and then let’s sit down for a chat.
Also no mention of the fact that Egypt despises them and the president of Egypt also told the Gazans to stay. It is only ISRAEL that gives them the hope of a better life with work visas and for some reason he thinks they shouldn’t go to Israel. He doesn’t realize that ISRAEL does not need them, they need ISRAEL.
Amjad has chosen his side; just as all first-gen Americans have done. They've come to America to escape the "Two Tribes Go To War" bullshit of wherever they've egressed from. He is quite obviously more of an "us" than a "them".
No one has to pay cult to such a simple-minded trope as to have to continuously re-affirm that every other sentence. Just as I do not have to preface for any Leftist fucktard any comment I make on the politics du jour with boiler-plate "I am NOT a Nazi. Can I please suck your dick?".
Or closer to home, because I'm of English Catholic heritage, if I make criticism of the DUP or the Northern Ireland Office, I do not have to say I've no truck with the feckin' Provos or Sin Fein every five minutes. Grow up.
But in this case it's relevant. What is happening right now in Gaza is a direct result of Hamas's terrorism and its ideological hold on Gaza and Palestinian territories. It *is* somewhat incumbent on Palestinians, there and abroad, to acknowledge the role that Hamas has played in their oppression and poverty.
dont worry. we in the USA are replacing all of that cash.. for "Humanitarian purposes"
Thought the same! Or that Gaza has been under Palestinian rule since 2005 and Hamas rule since 2007.
Mr. Abukwaik, you write a touching memoir about the Gaza you grew up in. What you don't reveal is whether or not you support the recent Hamas action and why. That is something I would want to know so I can understand the Palestinian viewpoint from what appears to be an average Palestinian. Please respond. Thank you.
I feel terribly for this man. I also feel terribly for the people in Cuba and Venezuela who live under oppressive regimes that, like Hamas in Gaza, hold them as slaves for the benefit of the upper classes.
However, it was their support that allowed the horrible monsters - Sinwar, Castro, and Chavez - to take over. Stein's Law states that if something cannot go on forever, it will stop. And hate and evil can never go on forever. These regimes have always had an expiration date.
It appears that Hamas and Gaza will be the first of these to fall. Hamas' leaders have carried their people to the precipice of disaster based on a combination of hate, pride, and religious madness. The price will be most horrendous, and as is always the case in history, it is the poorest and least able to pay, the lowest, who will foot the bill.
If these people can take the opportunity now to rise up and overthrow their leaders, now is the time. Otherwise, they must suffer their fate.
Without Iran there is no Hamas . Imagine how much better off the Palestinians would be if it were not for Iran and it’s willingness to spread radical ideology.
Iran didn't start Hamas. Hamas began in the 90s as an offshoot of the Suni Muslim Brotherhood which is deeply hostile to Iran. Iran made a strategic decision in the oughts to coopt Hamas in order to create another proxy on Israel's border.
Agree . But without Iran’s support , Hamas would not be a threat . Not much support in the rest of the Arab world .
Zero support in the rest of the Arab world which fears the Muslim Brotherhood. They were always a threat to cause violence and mayhem but not as great a threat as since Iran got involved.
This was a very interesting piece on several levels. But above all, the lack of any mention whatsoever, let alone a condemnation, of the barbaric atrocities committed inside Israel I found most interesting. There’s more to say, but I’ll leave it at that.
I feel the same. I deleted my longer comment. This author fills me with rage.
But I admire TFP for publishing it.
The Palestinian's piece was emotive but not substantive. Why are children living amongst rats in a territory where money pours in from all sides? Why does their government permit this? We know why. The millions of aid money goes for priorities like terror tunnels and UNRWA does not provide for these children because they are corrupt and do Hamas's bidding. I am sorry for his losses, but he makes no connection between Hamas strategies of using their people as human shields and the need for Israel to retaliate for the genocidal attack on them. It was "kitsch", sorry to say, and also sorry to say that it is typically Arab - poor us, the blame for our rotten situation totally lies with others. Who allowed Hamas to assume leadership? Who still supports them? Latest poll on Gaza 50%. I understand the Free Press is trying to be "balanced" but there must be someone better than this as a representative of the Gazan perspective.
I found it interesting that the writer accidently substantiated the fact that parents in Gaza send their children to harass soldiers. His own mother woke him up in the middle of the night and sent him out into a situation where he could easily have been hurt or killed. What changed her mind from earlier that day? Who pressured her to risk her son's life?
There is a disconnect there: Hamas have effectively weaponised Motherhood; a thing that is sacred.
This is the perspective of a chap now acculturated American. The Gazan perspective is "Kill Jews".
Since 2005, the Arabs living in Gaza have had the right of self determination, the ability to define who they want to be as a people and a nation. They chose violence, murder and destruction, rather than peaceful coexistence. The blame for the death of your nine family members, as well as the impoverished lives you describe, lies 100% at the feet of Hamas and residents of Gaza and the rest of the Arab world that enable Hamas to exist and flourish.
Would you have protested against Hamas?
I too would like to hear how he feels about Hamas.
You never will, of course.
He made it clear his "problem" is with the state of Israel, not with the psychopathic terrorists who spend their money on bombs while their people live among rats.
So sorry for your loss . As an American , I find it tragic that this is happening to Americans with family in both Gaza and Israel.
But am curious as to how you feel about Hamas and what a realistic solution would look like .
I’m so sorry for your loss Amjad. Thank you for telling your story.
Thank you Free Press for this story.