You're the one with the strawman argument. Trump supporters understand very well that "free market" is a dog whistle for lowering import tariffs, especially on PRC. A tariff of 28% and a tariff of 8% both satisfy the definition of "free market". But a tariff of 28% is more effective in reducing cheap Chinese imports.

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Your facts are wrong and so is your approach. Trump completed 458 miles of border wall even though he had no funding from the Democrat Congress and he had to fight law suits from environmental groups allied with Democrats. All he got from Democrats was impeachment over a phone call. And within the first few hours, Biden stopped wall construction by executive order. From day one, Democrats aimed to overturn Trumps election in 2016 with the Russia collusion investigation. You cannot compromise with Democrats because they don't compromise. Trump accomplished a huge amount despite fighting the Democrats, the media, silicon Valley and of course Never Trumpers (like you). You should just register as a Democrat.

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This article talks about Trump supporters hating the GOP. I am a DeSantis supporter who will vote for the GOP nominee, whoever it is. I despise the National Republican Committee & Ronna Mcdaniel for being ineffective and not taking responsibility for losing elections. Ronan has lost or underperformed in 4 in a row. She has neither resigned in shame nor been replaced. This is ridiculous! It doesn't matter how well you raise money if you can't use it effectively to win elections. Where were the GOP counter suits to all the illegal alterations to election laws made by court order in 2020 and continued in 2022?

The GOP needs to sue using civil rights law. We can't overturn elections, but we can claim that Maricopa County had a conspiracy to deprive GOP voters of their right to vote on Election Day, when accidentally loading new software caused 4 hour waits to vote in a very Republican county. We can ask for remedies like banning the voting machine vendor, replacing the machines and firing the county officials responsible.

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Rasmussen polling supports this analysis. By a margin of 2 to 1, Republicans are unhappy with their representative in Congress. Democrats love their representative.

We this dynamic play out during Trumps first term. He was of course at war with Democrats, but also with never Trumpers in the Republican party like Liz Cheney and Mitt Romney.

Basically the elitists in the Republican party have lots in common with elitists in the Democrat party. They can agree that a few illegals in the US is a good thing, because you know, "good help" is so hard to find. For the American construction worker, plumber, corrections officer, truck driver, not so much.

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I disagree about the free markets. Lowering tax rates while broadening the base, which Trump did and Art Laffer and Larry Kudlow are constantly boosting, is definitely pro free market.

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Here's what people don't remember about when Trump first took office. He got all the big retailers a tax break, and made sure all the big retailers gave their bottom level hourly employees a dollar an hour raise.

He told all those employers, if the little people don't see this raise, you won't see this tax cut.

Hillary Clinton sat on the board of Walmart, did she ever get anyone a raise? No.

The little people remember this.

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The Trump voters I know did not pick Donald Trump as their #1 choice in 2019 to be the GOP candidate. It was the other 16 or so candidates that made Donald Trump the choice. The establishment GOP elected and unelected folk are not our friends. No Bush, McCain, Romney please. These folk are what way back when we would call Rockefeller Republicans. They were not our (Republican voter) friends.

We are stuck with Donald Trump because most if not all of the others are not trustworthy or appear not to be trustworthy to defend the citizens of this country .

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You mean 2016.

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No, I meant the 2020 election. But every election since Ronald Reagan would also qualify as those in charge had little or no respect for their voters.

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Or yes, T Reid. Spending two years in the 4th grade did not help.

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Thank you for the compliments.

And thank you also for keeping it civil, and interesting.

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True citizens must end the employment of any civil servant or politician or media personality who failed in their duty to defend the borders of the republic or who violated the civil rights of christian and jewish citizens. Trump is the trusted warrior and champion the people have annointed to enforce this agenda at gunpoint if need be. He is an American version of Cromwell. There is no statute of limitations.

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Jan 17·edited Jan 17

I detest DEI with a passion.

I agree it is tearing us apart.

It needs to be eliminated root and branch.

I detest the political left, and have for decades .

I’ll still never vote for Trump or any of the politicians (spineless cowards) who have repeated his lies and defended his insurrection.

The Republicans need to become a political party again, and purge the personality cult.

Preserve democracy:

Defeat Trump now.

Defeat DEI later.

Personal note about DEI:

The only people who ever forced me to take “diversity training” courses (at work) were Republicans.

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deletedJan 17
Comment deleted
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I agree, with some reservations.

There are several.

I’ll explain.

I would like to see the criminal cases against him involving his attempts to overturn the last election reach verdicts well before the next election.

The people should know in advance if they’re voting for a convicted criminal or not.

It seems like he’s trying to run out the clock in the courts. (Typical).

I do not want Donald Trump to be in a position to pardon himself or his insurrectionist mob. Imagine the resulting constitutional crisis and potential for societal mayhem.

Beyond that, the constitution, the fundamental law of our democracy, is quite clear in excluding insurrectionists from office.

He is one, and he should be.

(I recommend reading the opinions of retired federal appeals court judge Michael Luttig, a staunch Texas conservative, on the matter.)

It’s a mess. Hopefully the voters will reject him (again), and his mob will fail to reappear.

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What seems more like an insurrection to you: a single riot in DC where the police shot one protester for no reason, or months of riots in over 120 cities nationwide that killed dozens, injured hundreds and destroyed billions of dollars worth of property? The Antifa/BLM Riots were the real insurrection. They were not only allowed, but politically supported by Democrats nationally. And, if you read the goals of both Antifa and BLM, you will find they want to replace the Constitution with socialist dictatorship. They even declared territory they controlled independent of state and federal jurisdiction. That's prima facie insurrection.

Trump's indictments all seem to be for novel legal theories tailored for Trump personally, and not efforts to enforce the rule of law.

The first indictment is an unprosecuted potential federal campaign misdemeanor as a predicate for a NY State felony business records fraud charge. Please notice the compaign finance charge has exceeded the statute of limitations, so the state charge had to be built to get around the statute of limitations.

The second indictment is an untested theory that a former president can't retain any classified presidential records, even for sorting purposes. Trump is indicted under the Espionage Act for possession of classified materials with intent to reveal them to unauthorized persons.

The "Jan 6" indictment says that protesting possible election fraud and asking for Congress to take a look at it is obstructing a government proceding and treason. The government's case assumes that the 2020 election was immaculate, or at least there wasn't enough obvious fraud to change the outcome, and that any statement to the contrary is obviously misleading fraud on the federal government. Pay no attention to the millions of people, like me, who think there were a lot of things that were off about the 2020 election. The government position is that there's no room for doubt here. Also, take no note of the fact that nobody, neither Trump nor any Jan 6 rioter, has even been indicted for insurrection.

The Georgia case says that asking for a recount, or even a thorough investigation into vote fraud, is itself election fraud. So what if the Georgia State Attorney General promised to investigate? He changed his mind, and nobody can argue with him on the phone. Stating how close the vote was in Georgia, and how little vote fraud would make a difference, is obviously incriminating.

Also in Georgia, the Rico indictments say it's fraud to maintain standing in court to contest a presidential election by having a slate of alternate electors. The legal status of the electors was never in question. They couldn't vote unless Trump won his court cases or Congress voted to accept them or state legislatures certified them. At no point was any such action likely. The Congressional consideration of the election was interrupted when Nancy Pelosi's lack of preparation led to the Capitol Riot on Jan 6.

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"His mob" is half of America. These voters will not disappear, and hoping for that is the anti thesis of democracy. Keeping Trump off the ballet is the anti thesis of democracy.

You have 2 choices: address the concerns of Trump supporters and bring them to your side, or 2) defeat Trump at the ballot box in a transparent and fair election.

Using lawfare to avoid one of these two options is no different than Putin sending Navalsky to prison.

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The thing liberals don’t understand about the average Republican voter in 2024 is that they hate the Republican Party. The average liberal feels well-represented by the Democratic Party because the Democrats’ base, like the party leadership, are college-educated elites. They share the same list of priorities. But the average Republican voter is working class and truly loathes the Bush-era version of the Republican Party, which meant tax cuts for the rich, failed wars, and an economic agenda that outsourced jobs to China.

JEEZUS H CHRIST... the Bari Weiss Democratic Party Rehabilitation Project (aka The Free Press) is desperate to find any way possible to remind people to Vote Blue No Matter Who...

Just remind everyone of the single point of faith that can NEVER be questioned: Republicans are still bad... obviously. Democrats are still good... obviously.


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Jan 16·edited Jan 16

“Working-class Americans are worried about the economy, immigration, our foreign entanglements, and the disappearing American Dream—all issues Donald Trump not only talks about but has a solid record on. Haley represents the GOP that Trump replaced—the free-market, chamber-of-commerce, nation-building version of the party”

This point needs to be explained because neither the concerns of Trump voters or the concerns of Haley voters contradict. The working class is concerned about the economy and Haley is a “free market, chamber-of-commerce,” Republican. Is being pro free markets somehow being anti working class? My understanding is they are one and the same.

Trump voters are concerned about immigration (legal or illegal, you don’t specify and those are entirely different things.) Haley and DeSantis are both anti illegal immigration.

I suppose I simply don’t understand Trump voters. What they say they want can be found in any Republican candidate yet they have a bizarre burning hatred for the GOP and appear to almost take glee in opposing it. As someone who would gladly vote for Haley, DeSantis or Trump I don’t understand this. They all seem the same to me, the only difference is Trump is toxic down ballot which makes a non Trump vote more strategic.

It’s almost like the Trump voters don’t care about strategy, the success of the broader Republican coalition (how do they expect their president to get anything done without republicans in congress), or policy. They seem to just love Trump and are obsessed with this “taking on the deep state,” story.

Way to tank the entire party over emotion.

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It's a matter of trust. The voters trust Trump to fix the border because that has been his issue from day one. They don't trust other Republicans as much, who are likely to compromise with open borders advocates in the donor class who want low wage labor to pick over.

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" and Haley is a “free market, chamber-of-commerce,” Republican. "

The problem is, when you say that to a lot of the working class, what they hear is "let's regulate American industry into oblivion and buy everything from China". If you're an American manufacturer, it's hard to compete on price with a competitor that uses slave labor and doesn't have to worry about waste disposal. If Haley wants cred with the working class, she has to figure out how to get out in front of that. It's going to involve some combination of reigning in the regulatory state, and, yes, tariffs or import bans against Chinese products. There is no such thing as "free-market" competition with an authoritarian regime that manipulates its currency and compels its people to live as paupers. While she's at it, she needs a plan for how she's going to put a stop to technology transfer to China.

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Thank God communism doesn't work and the Chinese don't have babies because I don't think there's a realistic model for how you stop the rampant theft of our R&D unless they invade Taiwan and kill the internet.

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Jan 17·edited Jan 17

Your comment confuses me because you claim that when the working class hears “free market” they think, “regulate American industry into oblivion and buy everything from China.”

But that’s the exact opposite of what free market means. Regulations are anti free market and regulations are why doing business in America is so much more costly than in China. American workers are simply more expensive as well, even when not competing with slave labor.

I get the sense that Trump voters are economically illiterate and operate more out of tribal classism (what’s good for the rich must be bad for me, what’s bad for the rich must be good for me!) rather than a considered understanding of why jobs went overseas and what realistic options we have to counter this.

Furthermore, the biggest problem in our economy right now is not job creation, it’s the cost of living (inflation). The solution to this is not more tariffs or anti free trade, it’s the opposite.

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Free market means no import controls on Chinese goods. Clear?

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False, that only makes sense if your understanding of free trade is some sort of anarcho capitalist laissez faire no rules system. Of course that’s not what free market means.

The World Trade Orginazion defines free trade as any trade with less than 30% tariffs. Free trade means removing barriers, not removing all barriers.

Your argument is a straw man. It’s like saying one can’t be a capitalist if one supports regulation and taxation. Of course that’s nonsense.

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Inflation is a product of money printer go burr. Freeing up the market won't fix that, besides right now the supply side is fixed, except for housing.

Free markets only work if they're fair markets. Without FULL reciprocity from our competitors, the only proven result will be high stock returns for the stockbrokers who sell us out, and lost jobs + wages for the working class.

"What's good for the rich must be bad for me!". In American political transitions this has been true for everyone BUT Trump.

That what happened with Clinton and NAFTA, when Bush let China into the WTO, and when Obama chose the banks over homeowners in 09, and Biden's Inflation (Magnifcation) act. I agree most people are economically illiterate - but they don't need a degree in economics to understand what six to nine inches up your backside feels like. And voters can see a line of Biden super-donors behind Haley lubing up.

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I hear you. The governing classes have let down the middle and working classes for decades.

I don’t share your negative assessment of Biden. On the contrary, I think he’s done a pretty reasonable job, and the ills you identify are beyond the power of any president to correct. Trump’s not going to fix any of these things. Odds are he’ll make them all worse. I must confess, however, I don’t know how to appeal to those who are sold on Trump.

Preserving our constitutional republic is not a “luxury belief”. It is the bedrock on which this country stands. If it falls, we’re all in the lawless quicksand.

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Republicans are against federal "suggestions" and payments to private companies that encourage censorship. Republicans are in favor of being able to petition state officials for redress of grievances, like performing promised audits of votes, as allowed in the 1st Amendment. Republicans think people have the right to an attorney, who can't be forced to testify against you at the whim of a partisan judge after a partisan prosecutor alleges fraud. If Democrats can challenge the outcome of the 2016 election for 4 years, based on no evidence according to the Horowitz and Durham Reports, why is challenging the 2020 election outcome a crime or a threat to "our democracy?"

Isn't Jan 6 more like the Reichstag Fire as an excuse for Democrats to suppress legitimate political opposition, removing them from the ballot without even charging them for insurrection, let alone getting a conviction?

If the Biden Administration is so Constitutional, why is it fighting the injunction from Missouri v Biden that forbids federal agencies from "suggesting" censorship to private companies? Isn't that obviously against the 1st Amendment?

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Man, I seriously disagree with you on Biden. DEI is explicitly a system of dividing people into first-class and second-class citizens. If it continues with the support of the ruling classes, it will inevitably result in civil war and partition. And Biden has made it absolutely clear which side he's on. I regard him as far more a threat then Trump is.

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I do think that is part of the Trump derangement syndrome. Woke progressives had captured higher education and nearly all legacy media. They thought their victory was complete but then Trump arrived and they realized they ignored the wisdom of the movie Fight Club

My favorite scene in the movie is when they trap the public official who is going to clamp down on Fight Club(s) in the restroom. The Fight Club members were the waiters for the event unbeknownst to the public official.

They pin him to the floor threaten cut his nuts off then Tyler Durden delivers the killer line:

"Look, the people you are after are the people you depend on, we cook your meals, we haul your trash, we connect your calls, we drive your ambulances, we guard you while you sleep. Do not fuck with us."

Heck, i'll post a link to the clip.


Thats what Trump voters did to the elites in 2016 and the elites have never forgiven them for it.

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I think many liberals realize the claim that the average Republican voter in 2024 "hate[s] the Republican Party". One just needs to look at any polling data for the Republican nomination for president to prove this. If anything, liberals would prefer Trump's renomination; it helps them win independent voters by bashing their opponent rather than talking policy. Lastly, I'd consider the idea that when GWB won reelection in 2004, he did it with a majority of votes with everyone making more than 50,000$ yearly, and split 50/50 with Kerry everyone making 30-49,000$ yearly. The point here is that the demographics mentioned here are not exactly new to the Republican Party.

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