I am part of what is considered "non denominational" Christianity, which is by far the most vibrant and growing branch of the faith here in the U.S. I am both Evangelical and would be considered "Pentecostal" theologically, although many group it as a cultural thing as well. The difference is minor, mostly around the work of the Holy Spirit today. On all major issues of evangelical doctrine they agree. They are evangelicals in the theological sense, which is more important than the cultural.
Latinos have been moving to evangelical Protestant churches of all kinds for many decades, this is not new. Goes back to the 1970s. Huge shift in terms of numbers. And not just Latinos. Ex-Catholics of all ethnicities comprise 30+ % of the members/attendees in many evangelical churches. All over the U.S. Evangelical churches have been growing rapidly throughout Latin America in the last 30 years. Mamy of the Latino immigrants who came in recent years were Protestant.
I wonder how this writer defines evangelical. This is a word that is tossed around a lot, but I see few people attempting to actually define what evangelical is. Seldom do I see references to the Bebbington quadrilateral.
There is a Guatemalan family living living down the street. He is a successful contractor and well liked in the neighborhood. They belong to one of those evangelical sects, one we think is a little "out there".
That can be very difficult. I taught at a secular American university for 25 years. There was some kind of moral outrage every week. Hillsong and universities are, sadly, composed of human beings.
"Pentecostalism—which touts itself as “prosperity theology”—promises a road to upward socioeconomic mobility. To reach salvation, there is no need to confess to a priest. Conversion and baptism alone can win it. Neither is there a need to die poor in order to inherit the earth; life can be better right here, on this very ground."
Wait a minute, I go to a Pentecostal church (Assemblies of God) and it doesn't teach this. That's more in line with the prosperity gospel.
Dollars to donuts that the one thing that wont be left behind when making the pilgrimage to Evangelical climes is the Latinos traditional fondness for virulent antisemitism.
I am excited to see the growth in Bible believing/following churches in the Latino community. May it spread to all people and the entire Earth. We desperately need a spiritual revival
This is just my opinion, but commenters shouldn’t have to clarify simple things like the differences between denominations, which could be looked up online in two minutes. All I can figure is that the summary here doesn’t do the book justice; also that I don’t want to read it. Despite TFP earning a commission.
It is better to live in a world where people stive to live in accordance with Judeo Christian principles, than otherwise, no matter the religion or the denomination.
The American Constitution is an entirely human oriented map of best principals for a successful culture and society. It overlays and supports all non violent religious and spiritual pursuits and encourages human dignity and progress at every turn.
The American Constitution has ‘checks & balances’ built into its fabric. I’d say that feature is its very DNA and what makes it radically different than all other Republics/Democracies on earth.
This notion of ‘checks & balances’ in our Constitution is directly related to Deuteronomy 17:14-20 which spells out how a King (if the Israelites must have one) should conduct himself, including a ‘check’ on law by Levitical priests. This ‘call out’ of how ‘Power’ was to behave relative to those he ruled (served) in this ancient Torah text, was also very radical for its time — when Kings of other empires acted more as tyrants, taking many concubines, amassing wealth, acting without accountability.
I think Selena Gomez got involved in Hillsong Church back when she was dating Justin Bieber. He was baptized by the church’s pastor in 2014.
“And while the congregation at a Catholic Mass is made to sit and listen to a priest at an altar, the evangelical church urges them to speak, shout, share the faith, hug a stranger, join the family.”
No one’s *made* to sit and listen - except maybe kids whose parents dragged them to church. You go to a Catholic Mass with the knowledge that that’s how it works. I’m glad I was raised Catholic, because I’m way too introverted for the jumping, hugging, shouting denominations.
Democrats like to brag that they have the "college educated" voters. But two thirds of Americans do not have a college degree. And now they are bleeding black and Latino voters. How many "suburban women" interested in abortion are out there to vote Democrat?
“Pentecostalism—which touts itself as “prosperity theology”—promises a road to upward socioeconomic mobility.”
This statement is an erroneous brush to paint across Pentecostals. My entire family is Pentecostal and I have never been to single service which touts this theology. Are there churches that do this, sure. However, the author should make that distinction obvious. There is enough prejudice floating around our country regarding certain groups that doesn’t apply to ALL. To perpetuate this lie is harmful and only feeds into the minds of those who judge an entire group without knowing more than one or two individuals, that in their mind, fit the stereotype.
It’s a difficult line to tread not disparaging different Protestant denominations, including politely ignoring the ones that have heretical and antithetical beliefs to RC Christianity, but I cannot get behind Pentacostalism.
On the one hand, it’s beautiful to see people on fire for their faith and so involved in building up different ministries to serve the needs of their community where social/government services fail or just aren’t able to meet the amount of demand. However, in the article and what I’ve seen from megachurch type places, there’s a strong focus on “emotionalism” and the feels you get in the service.
To a point this is alright, but there are/can be periods of spiritual dryness—a la St. Theresa of Calcutta experiencing a spiritual depression for decades where she felt nothing. If all your “faith” is derived from what you feel in the moment, that’s not sustainable and you’re simply seeking a high repeatedly—not Christ or a relationship with him.
Susan Cain had a good bit in her book “Quiet” that many Protestant (not all) megachurches are built for overstimulation and extroverts. Perhaps Catholic Mass seems boring but I’d rather take a reserved quiet, reverent visit to the chapel or santuary (or mass) than stand in rock concert every Sunday. Herr Forknspoon pointed it out that the prosperity gospel teachings prevelent in many of these places are heretical—you don’t guarantee a place in heaven or wealth on earth by how much you donate. Did we learn nothing from the Hillsong scandals?
Still waiting to see someone write on the number of Protestants and other groups quietly converting to RC or Orthodox Christianity—those guys are definitely having a moment. A more quiet moment but one nonetheless.
We can fight all day about who has the right flavor of Christianity. I grew up protestant and it never made sense to me why Catholics are so obsessed with Latin. It would make sense if it were Hebrew or even Aramaic since that's what Jesus spoke, but why Latin? Why speak the language of the people who crucified Jesus? Is it just because they became the religious authority in Europe after Jesus' death and they embraced Christianity? Moreover, why are priests the only ones who can speak to God? Why do you have to go through a bunch of theological study to be able to ask for God's forgiveness? It strikes me as the same as requiring many years of schooling to be able to do science when in reality anyone can do science. (Admittedly I've never been Catholic or been to a Catholic church so please feel free to correct me if I have any misconceptions). The bible never says that only special people can ask God for forgiveness. I'm not trying to disparage Catholicism I'm just saying that from the perspective I grew up with, Catholics aren't strictly following biblical teachings either. That is just to illustrate how easy it is to chase our own tails about this. In an age where religion is failing we should be happy that people are finding faith whatever form it takes.
Why are priests the only ones who can speak to God?
Not sure where you got that from. The priest acts as "in persona Christi", or in the person of Christ, but isn't Christ himself. All things we do, especially in the sacrament of the Eucharist, is in imitation and remembrance of Christ, as he said. There is a long tradition of internal prayer, primarily based on the teachings of the dessert fathers or the early Christian monks who would retreat into the desert to seek communion and solitude with God. I would suggest "Searching for and Maintaining Peace" by Fr. Jacques Philippe, St. Teresa of Avila's "The Interior Castle", St. Ignatius of Loyola, or St. Louis deMontforte's works on interior prayer and the development of the spiritual life. Nothing that I know of in church teaching says only priests speak to God. We are called and taught to devote time of prayer--both spoken and mental, sometimes in litanies of prayer like you would find in the rosary or even in the tradition of the Liturgy of the Hours--to God, and listen to the interior movements of the Holy Spirit, Christ, and God.
If your curious, you might also look up Interlocution, which is actually hearing the voice of Christ or Mary--St. Faustina Kowaslka is a good but difficult saint who is documented to have had full conversations with Christ.
We don't have to go through a lot of theological study to ask for forgiveness, but there has been a lot of theological writings and teachings -- as is true in various protestant traditions -- explaining the undergirding of Christ's teachings. The greatest difference I see is the teaching on the Eucharist, purgatory, and the understanding of "saved by faith" vs saved by works. I've seen many people abuse the saved by faith who speak only of mercy but completely bypass the understanding of sin and it's spiritual, physical, and metaphorical impacts on the world. Try a copy of the catechism of the catholic church -- it provides references to every teaching the church has and what passages it draws its reasoning from.
If there are specific biblical teachings that you can provide that you find problematic, I'd be happy to provide a list of citations. I would suggest some other resources for your to explore -- and I get it, I converted from being an atheist and a witch, so much of the teachings were absolutely new to me period.
Thank you for replying in a respectful way. That's rare on the internet lol. I do find this all to be very interesting and informative and I'm glad you shared it with me and cleared up some misconceptions. You're journey from an atheist witch to a Catholic sounds very interesting. I would most identify as an agnostic these days but I am very interested in all kinds of religions especially Christianity since that's what I grew up with. Just to give you some perspective the way I've seen it growing up as a protestant (Baptist then Calvinist my parents were rather fundamentalist creationists and kind of still are) is that before Martin Luther kicked off the reformation Latin was used as a way for the church to maintain control because it was illegal to publish bibles in languages other than Latin and only the most educated even knew how to read it so they just had to trust the priests, who had been indoctrinated through education in theological schools to push the Church's agenda, that they were actually telling the truth of what the bible said. Much like how our current culture believes the only way you can say anything about science is if you went through the process of indoctrination at one of the "good" Ivy league schools and that regular people can't do science which isn't true. It was when the Catholic church started asking for donations to save people's relatives from hell that the camel's back really broke and Martin Luther pinned his theses to the church door. I just find it odd that in popular depictions of Christianity they use Latin against demons and whatnot as if it has some special significance to them. Those may just be inaccurate depictions I don't really know. As for priests only being able to talk to God, when I was growing up if I wanted to talk to God I just put my hands together, closed my eyes, and prayed. I didn't need some mediator to confess to. That's where that idea came from.
I was nodding along till you started dissing rock worship music. There's nothing wrong at all with listening to worship music that you actually enjoy. Or that makes you want to move.
Didn't diss any kind of music. Just said today's music doesn't move me. But, being at home on the internet, you don't have to listen. Which is a big void for any service. But my church has 4 venues and two different service times. Other churches I have been too with the same basic set up offered different styles of music to appeal to more and more diverse people. We are more Newsboys, Michael W. Smith type folks.
As in all other things sir, this is a free country, and I have myself been known to nod my head along to Christian rock music on the radio. In contemplative prayer, at a Catholic Mass, when I'm trying to focus, that's not when I want to hear that type of music--it's often loud, the rhythm is too fast, and far too distracting for me personally to focus on the interior movements of the Holy Spirit. Adoration in front of the Blessed Sacrament is meant to usually be quiet, contemplative prayer. There's a time for celebration and rejoicing, and for silence. Both are important and can be achieved in the Christian life. If I want a rock concert that overstimulates the hell out of me, I'm not going to go to mass to try and find it.
Every church does it a little bit differently, and there are wide differences in how those churches choose to revere God in their musical traditions. I'm not an Evangelical for many reasons, the music being the least of them.
For me, liturgy is as important as the music, and has a rhythm of moments that build us up, and bring us to more somber reflection, also depending on the liturgical season. My original comment was in reference to Susan Cain's "Quiet" and she does make a valid point about introvert Christians feeling displaced in their Evangelical parishes because they do have a rock concert-like atmosphere. That may not be true to the experience of your church, but that's not to say that it doesn't occur other places. For a RC mass, there is music throughout, beginning to end; that may not be something that you prefer in your tastes for worship.
If nothing else, that chapter in Cain's book is worth a read, as it reflects the sentiments I have heard from Protestant converts to RC that there's a vast difference in the sacred music played in one group vs another, and it's impact on the personal development of their spiritual life while in prayer or in a congregation.
I have not yet seen research on the converts from Evangelicalism to RC or Orthodox catholicism but my guess is the numbers are small. They exist--I know some--but for every person who converts in that direction a hundred convert the other way; from Catholicism to Pentecostalism
Probably true, the numbers may be small, but those converts are incredibly passionate about what they believe. And I keep meeting them across all adult age groups--even into their 70s. It's astounding to me.
There is the issue of what people believe, and how strongly they believe it. Christianity has benefitted from incredibly passionate believers throughout its entire history and in every locale.
When covid hit, the church went on line. That is where we staid. One of the main reasons is we are a hymn couple. The music should be moving but today's music does nothing for us. And when the money sermons come, almost always 3 in a row, and 10% to the church to start, right before the end of the year, we watch other services. We do give there and to other charities. We have more to give during the month and give to who moves us at the time. The only problem with that is then each charity starts mailing solicitations. But then, those solicitations and bills are all we get to read in the mail. And it isn't hard to see which go in the trash, we walk right by it, and which we wish to read. Can you deduct millage to church as part of your tithe? Not something that belongs in the discussion. But some do.
I mean, tithe is a part of keeping a church and the ministries it fosters/sponsors alive, especially for serving unmet needs in the both the church and the wider community. I hope, if it is possible for you and your spouse, to find a church where you can be in-person, as I think there are greater benefits, but if it's not feasible, then more power to you.
I like to think that Pentecostalism is a stop on a road of one’s faith journey. It doesn’t seem long term fulfilling as one ages and their spiritual needs evolve. At that time, I believe the liturgical denominations and focus on relationship with Christ, rather than congregants/pastors, causes that person to seek something deeper.
Until then, I’m happy to see people find Christ where they are. The world will certainly be better for it.
I tend to agree. I started off in nondenominational Evangelicalism, and it was a good primer, but ultimately chose to move and stay with Catholicism for the reason you point out: one is drawn to where they form a deeper relationship with Christ.
I am too, Kelly. I have attended a non denominational evangelical Jesus/Gospel centered church for most of my adult life. This morning’s service we studied Deuteronomy 17, and I so appreciate the study of the OT, and it’s through line to the NT. This is church where I was taught to read the Bible, and so very thankful for that. But was also raised Catholic, where missalette’s did most of the interpreting. When I visit my Mom I do enjoy Mass very much. The smell of incense and sprinkle of holy water on palm Sundays from priest brings me much joy, as does reciting the Nicene Creed.
I just finished reading Tom Holland’s 2019 book ‘Dominion’ which recounts 2000 years of Christian history. Tom was brought back to the Church by his research of the book. Highly recommend.
Lol reminds of the smells and bells comments I hear. But glad that you have found a church that helps you to stay focused on who is most important in the faith.
I am part of what is considered "non denominational" Christianity, which is by far the most vibrant and growing branch of the faith here in the U.S. I am both Evangelical and would be considered "Pentecostal" theologically, although many group it as a cultural thing as well. The difference is minor, mostly around the work of the Holy Spirit today. On all major issues of evangelical doctrine they agree. They are evangelicals in the theological sense, which is more important than the cultural.
Excellent article.
Latinos have been moving to evangelical Protestant churches of all kinds for many decades, this is not new. Goes back to the 1970s. Huge shift in terms of numbers. And not just Latinos. Ex-Catholics of all ethnicities comprise 30+ % of the members/attendees in many evangelical churches. All over the U.S. Evangelical churches have been growing rapidly throughout Latin America in the last 30 years. Mamy of the Latino immigrants who came in recent years were Protestant.
I wonder how this writer defines evangelical. This is a word that is tossed around a lot, but I see few people attempting to actually define what evangelical is. Seldom do I see references to the Bebbington quadrilateral.
There is a Guatemalan family living living down the street. He is a successful contractor and well liked in the neighborhood. They belong to one of those evangelical sects, one we think is a little "out there".
That can be very difficult. I taught at a secular American university for 25 years. There was some kind of moral outrage every week. Hillsong and universities are, sadly, composed of human beings.
This discussion (debate) on denominations misses the beautiful point of the story - people growing in their relationship with Christ.
"Pentecostalism—which touts itself as “prosperity theology”—promises a road to upward socioeconomic mobility. To reach salvation, there is no need to confess to a priest. Conversion and baptism alone can win it. Neither is there a need to die poor in order to inherit the earth; life can be better right here, on this very ground."
Wait a minute, I go to a Pentecostal church (Assemblies of God) and it doesn't teach this. That's more in line with the prosperity gospel.
Dollars to donuts that the one thing that wont be left behind when making the pilgrimage to Evangelical climes is the Latinos traditional fondness for virulent antisemitism.
I am excited to see the growth in Bible believing/following churches in the Latino community. May it spread to all people and the entire Earth. We desperately need a spiritual revival
This is just my opinion, but commenters shouldn’t have to clarify simple things like the differences between denominations, which could be looked up online in two minutes. All I can figure is that the summary here doesn’t do the book justice; also that I don’t want to read it. Despite TFP earning a commission.
It is better to live in a world where people stive to live in accordance with Judeo Christian principles, than otherwise, no matter the religion or the denomination.
The American Constitution is an entirely human oriented map of best principals for a successful culture and society. It overlays and supports all non violent religious and spiritual pursuits and encourages human dignity and progress at every turn.
The American Constitution has ‘checks & balances’ built into its fabric. I’d say that feature is its very DNA and what makes it radically different than all other Republics/Democracies on earth.
This notion of ‘checks & balances’ in our Constitution is directly related to Deuteronomy 17:14-20 which spells out how a King (if the Israelites must have one) should conduct himself, including a ‘check’ on law by Levitical priests. This ‘call out’ of how ‘Power’ was to behave relative to those he ruled (served) in this ancient Torah text, was also very radical for its time — when Kings of other empires acted more as tyrants, taking many concubines, amassing wealth, acting without accountability.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2017%3A14-20&version=NIV
Nice.
Amen… it’s really that simple
I think Selena Gomez got involved in Hillsong Church back when she was dating Justin Bieber. He was baptized by the church’s pastor in 2014.
“And while the congregation at a Catholic Mass is made to sit and listen to a priest at an altar, the evangelical church urges them to speak, shout, share the faith, hug a stranger, join the family.”
No one’s *made* to sit and listen - except maybe kids whose parents dragged them to church. You go to a Catholic Mass with the knowledge that that’s how it works. I’m glad I was raised Catholic, because I’m way too introverted for the jumping, hugging, shouting denominations.
Democrats like to brag that they have the "college educated" voters. But two thirds of Americans do not have a college degree. And now they are bleeding black and Latino voters. How many "suburban women" interested in abortion are out there to vote Democrat?
Democracy is turning out to be inconvenient for the Dems.
“Pentecostalism—which touts itself as “prosperity theology”—promises a road to upward socioeconomic mobility.”
This statement is an erroneous brush to paint across Pentecostals. My entire family is Pentecostal and I have never been to single service which touts this theology. Are there churches that do this, sure. However, the author should make that distinction obvious. There is enough prejudice floating around our country regarding certain groups that doesn’t apply to ALL. To perpetuate this lie is harmful and only feeds into the minds of those who judge an entire group without knowing more than one or two individuals, that in their mind, fit the stereotype.
Starr, I was appalled by that erroneous statement as well. Just unreal
Why is the 👍 disconnected on this page?
It’s a difficult line to tread not disparaging different Protestant denominations, including politely ignoring the ones that have heretical and antithetical beliefs to RC Christianity, but I cannot get behind Pentacostalism.
On the one hand, it’s beautiful to see people on fire for their faith and so involved in building up different ministries to serve the needs of their community where social/government services fail or just aren’t able to meet the amount of demand. However, in the article and what I’ve seen from megachurch type places, there’s a strong focus on “emotionalism” and the feels you get in the service.
To a point this is alright, but there are/can be periods of spiritual dryness—a la St. Theresa of Calcutta experiencing a spiritual depression for decades where she felt nothing. If all your “faith” is derived from what you feel in the moment, that’s not sustainable and you’re simply seeking a high repeatedly—not Christ or a relationship with him.
Susan Cain had a good bit in her book “Quiet” that many Protestant (not all) megachurches are built for overstimulation and extroverts. Perhaps Catholic Mass seems boring but I’d rather take a reserved quiet, reverent visit to the chapel or santuary (or mass) than stand in rock concert every Sunday. Herr Forknspoon pointed it out that the prosperity gospel teachings prevelent in many of these places are heretical—you don’t guarantee a place in heaven or wealth on earth by how much you donate. Did we learn nothing from the Hillsong scandals?
Still waiting to see someone write on the number of Protestants and other groups quietly converting to RC or Orthodox Christianity—those guys are definitely having a moment. A more quiet moment but one nonetheless.
We can fight all day about who has the right flavor of Christianity. I grew up protestant and it never made sense to me why Catholics are so obsessed with Latin. It would make sense if it were Hebrew or even Aramaic since that's what Jesus spoke, but why Latin? Why speak the language of the people who crucified Jesus? Is it just because they became the religious authority in Europe after Jesus' death and they embraced Christianity? Moreover, why are priests the only ones who can speak to God? Why do you have to go through a bunch of theological study to be able to ask for God's forgiveness? It strikes me as the same as requiring many years of schooling to be able to do science when in reality anyone can do science. (Admittedly I've never been Catholic or been to a Catholic church so please feel free to correct me if I have any misconceptions). The bible never says that only special people can ask God for forgiveness. I'm not trying to disparage Catholicism I'm just saying that from the perspective I grew up with, Catholics aren't strictly following biblical teachings either. That is just to illustrate how easy it is to chase our own tails about this. In an age where religion is failing we should be happy that people are finding faith whatever form it takes.
*Cracks knuckles and dusts off research skills.*
Latin use in the church: https://aleteia.org/2021/07/20/why-latin-remains-the-official-language-of-the-church/
Why are priests the only ones who can speak to God?
Not sure where you got that from. The priest acts as "in persona Christi", or in the person of Christ, but isn't Christ himself. All things we do, especially in the sacrament of the Eucharist, is in imitation and remembrance of Christ, as he said. There is a long tradition of internal prayer, primarily based on the teachings of the dessert fathers or the early Christian monks who would retreat into the desert to seek communion and solitude with God. I would suggest "Searching for and Maintaining Peace" by Fr. Jacques Philippe, St. Teresa of Avila's "The Interior Castle", St. Ignatius of Loyola, or St. Louis deMontforte's works on interior prayer and the development of the spiritual life. Nothing that I know of in church teaching says only priests speak to God. We are called and taught to devote time of prayer--both spoken and mental, sometimes in litanies of prayer like you would find in the rosary or even in the tradition of the Liturgy of the Hours--to God, and listen to the interior movements of the Holy Spirit, Christ, and God.
If your curious, you might also look up Interlocution, which is actually hearing the voice of Christ or Mary--St. Faustina Kowaslka is a good but difficult saint who is documented to have had full conversations with Christ.
We don't have to go through a lot of theological study to ask for forgiveness, but there has been a lot of theological writings and teachings -- as is true in various protestant traditions -- explaining the undergirding of Christ's teachings. The greatest difference I see is the teaching on the Eucharist, purgatory, and the understanding of "saved by faith" vs saved by works. I've seen many people abuse the saved by faith who speak only of mercy but completely bypass the understanding of sin and it's spiritual, physical, and metaphorical impacts on the world. Try a copy of the catechism of the catholic church -- it provides references to every teaching the church has and what passages it draws its reasoning from.
If there are specific biblical teachings that you can provide that you find problematic, I'd be happy to provide a list of citations. I would suggest some other resources for your to explore -- and I get it, I converted from being an atheist and a witch, so much of the teachings were absolutely new to me period.
https://www.newadvent.org/
I'd also recommend reading about and reading works by Theologian Scott Hahn, who converted to Catholicism while he was in Protestant seminary.
Thank you for replying in a respectful way. That's rare on the internet lol. I do find this all to be very interesting and informative and I'm glad you shared it with me and cleared up some misconceptions. You're journey from an atheist witch to a Catholic sounds very interesting. I would most identify as an agnostic these days but I am very interested in all kinds of religions especially Christianity since that's what I grew up with. Just to give you some perspective the way I've seen it growing up as a protestant (Baptist then Calvinist my parents were rather fundamentalist creationists and kind of still are) is that before Martin Luther kicked off the reformation Latin was used as a way for the church to maintain control because it was illegal to publish bibles in languages other than Latin and only the most educated even knew how to read it so they just had to trust the priests, who had been indoctrinated through education in theological schools to push the Church's agenda, that they were actually telling the truth of what the bible said. Much like how our current culture believes the only way you can say anything about science is if you went through the process of indoctrination at one of the "good" Ivy league schools and that regular people can't do science which isn't true. It was when the Catholic church started asking for donations to save people's relatives from hell that the camel's back really broke and Martin Luther pinned his theses to the church door. I just find it odd that in popular depictions of Christianity they use Latin against demons and whatnot as if it has some special significance to them. Those may just be inaccurate depictions I don't really know. As for priests only being able to talk to God, when I was growing up if I wanted to talk to God I just put my hands together, closed my eyes, and prayed. I didn't need some mediator to confess to. That's where that idea came from.
I was nodding along till you started dissing rock worship music. There's nothing wrong at all with listening to worship music that you actually enjoy. Or that makes you want to move.
See the Psalms about dancing to God
Didn't diss any kind of music. Just said today's music doesn't move me. But, being at home on the internet, you don't have to listen. Which is a big void for any service. But my church has 4 venues and two different service times. Other churches I have been too with the same basic set up offered different styles of music to appeal to more and more diverse people. We are more Newsboys, Michael W. Smith type folks.
As in all other things sir, this is a free country, and I have myself been known to nod my head along to Christian rock music on the radio. In contemplative prayer, at a Catholic Mass, when I'm trying to focus, that's not when I want to hear that type of music--it's often loud, the rhythm is too fast, and far too distracting for me personally to focus on the interior movements of the Holy Spirit. Adoration in front of the Blessed Sacrament is meant to usually be quiet, contemplative prayer. There's a time for celebration and rejoicing, and for silence. Both are important and can be achieved in the Christian life. If I want a rock concert that overstimulates the hell out of me, I'm not going to go to mass to try and find it.
The only music I've ever heard during prayer (if any) is some light piano
At my current evangelical church we do about 30 minutes of worship, then 15 minutes of small group prayer followed by an hour sermon.
Music is only during the worship part
Every church does it a little bit differently, and there are wide differences in how those churches choose to revere God in their musical traditions. I'm not an Evangelical for many reasons, the music being the least of them.
For me, liturgy is as important as the music, and has a rhythm of moments that build us up, and bring us to more somber reflection, also depending on the liturgical season. My original comment was in reference to Susan Cain's "Quiet" and she does make a valid point about introvert Christians feeling displaced in their Evangelical parishes because they do have a rock concert-like atmosphere. That may not be true to the experience of your church, but that's not to say that it doesn't occur other places. For a RC mass, there is music throughout, beginning to end; that may not be something that you prefer in your tastes for worship.
If nothing else, that chapter in Cain's book is worth a read, as it reflects the sentiments I have heard from Protestant converts to RC that there's a vast difference in the sacred music played in one group vs another, and it's impact on the personal development of their spiritual life while in prayer or in a congregation.
Fair enough
I have not yet seen research on the converts from Evangelicalism to RC or Orthodox catholicism but my guess is the numbers are small. They exist--I know some--but for every person who converts in that direction a hundred convert the other way; from Catholicism to Pentecostalism
Probably true, the numbers may be small, but those converts are incredibly passionate about what they believe. And I keep meeting them across all adult age groups--even into their 70s. It's astounding to me.
There is the issue of what people believe, and how strongly they believe it. Christianity has benefitted from incredibly passionate believers throughout its entire history and in every locale.
The Hillsong scandals indeed!
Go easy on the Pentecostal scandals. The Roman Catholics have had their share. As has every other human institution in the history of the world.
Agree. I just happen to know someone who was a victim of the Hillsong implosion.
When covid hit, the church went on line. That is where we staid. One of the main reasons is we are a hymn couple. The music should be moving but today's music does nothing for us. And when the money sermons come, almost always 3 in a row, and 10% to the church to start, right before the end of the year, we watch other services. We do give there and to other charities. We have more to give during the month and give to who moves us at the time. The only problem with that is then each charity starts mailing solicitations. But then, those solicitations and bills are all we get to read in the mail. And it isn't hard to see which go in the trash, we walk right by it, and which we wish to read. Can you deduct millage to church as part of your tithe? Not something that belongs in the discussion. But some do.
We are called to be part of a community. Long term that requires physical presence.
I mean, tithe is a part of keeping a church and the ministries it fosters/sponsors alive, especially for serving unmet needs in the both the church and the wider community. I hope, if it is possible for you and your spouse, to find a church where you can be in-person, as I think there are greater benefits, but if it's not feasible, then more power to you.
Thank you. It is just a different season.
I like to think that Pentecostalism is a stop on a road of one’s faith journey. It doesn’t seem long term fulfilling as one ages and their spiritual needs evolve. At that time, I believe the liturgical denominations and focus on relationship with Christ, rather than congregants/pastors, causes that person to seek something deeper.
Until then, I’m happy to see people find Christ where they are. The world will certainly be better for it.
I tend to agree. I started off in nondenominational Evangelicalism, and it was a good primer, but ultimately chose to move and stay with Catholicism for the reason you point out: one is drawn to where they form a deeper relationship with Christ.
I wish I could give this comment ten thumbs up.
The Catholic Mass is maybe the most beautiful thing we can witness on this earth. I am so grateful for it.
I am too, Kelly. I have attended a non denominational evangelical Jesus/Gospel centered church for most of my adult life. This morning’s service we studied Deuteronomy 17, and I so appreciate the study of the OT, and it’s through line to the NT. This is church where I was taught to read the Bible, and so very thankful for that. But was also raised Catholic, where missalette’s did most of the interpreting. When I visit my Mom I do enjoy Mass very much. The smell of incense and sprinkle of holy water on palm Sundays from priest brings me much joy, as does reciting the Nicene Creed.
I just finished reading Tom Holland’s 2019 book ‘Dominion’ which recounts 2000 years of Christian history. Tom was brought back to the Church by his research of the book. Highly recommend.
Lol reminds of the smells and bells comments I hear. But glad that you have found a church that helps you to stay focused on who is most important in the faith.