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I am a 25 year public educator (20 as an education professor). I've lived within the system long enough to know that government schools at any level do not work, have not worked, and will never work. It's time to quit throwing good money after bad and try some new options.

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Interesting episode, but seems to have missed the mark. Yes, the items highlighted are problematic, but they're certainly not the main cause of the lack of literacy and such. More likely causes include things like behavior issues and the move away from phonics. I would also like to hear more about "direct instruction", as well as the role of curriculum and tech. Re tech, each year principals go to conferences where tech companies sell them shiny, new, expensive products, and each year teachers and schools get to somehow figure out how to use these new tools and incorporate them into the classroom. One recent example from my local district is giving tablets to 5 year olds. The kindergarten teachers now get to figure out how to get their students to work with these things during their half-day session, despite the fact that childhood experts seem to say that the less time these young kids spend on these devices, the better.

So please do a follow-up episode on behavior, phonics and "the science of reading", as well as school leadership and how technology has impacted the classroom. (Or, perhaps a few episodes, as each of these are big subjects).

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Excellent discussion. One element has been overlooked, however. That is school building and district leadership. In my 35 years in education at all levels, I have seen few truly quality leaders who focus on student achievement. School boards approve teacher contracts, sometimes undermining what is best for students. Superintendents often provide poor, if any, Leadership for school boards and building administrators/ principals. Building principals, often focus on anything but student achievement. These are the people who dole out tenure, often to poor quality teachers. Often the best leadership comes from small cadres of teachers.

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Please do more investigative reporting on this subject and expand the debate to cover rural schools too. Which I don’t have the numbers but collectively in America, do rural schools educate more Americans than large cities?? I am a conservative in rural Texas with kids in an underfunded school. I would love to support school choice. It sounds good on the surface. But a deep dive into it as written in Texas, it will further HURT our funding in rural Texas schools. I agree that money isn’t the answer to every problem. I really beileve leadership is probably the real answer BUT talent recruitment is tough when you can’t payout teachers. So thanks for starting a conversation but PLEASE keep investigating. I’m not sure that the social issues like gender are really the most important issues in education. Listen to “Sold a Story”….great podcast about reading in America.

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I’m a public school teacher in Miami, FL. I love teaching 2nd grade. At MDCPS, they pride themselves in saying they’re the 3rd largest school district in the nation.

They are experts in using up funding in district offices and district personnel while schools lose teachers who work directly with students. As the bureaucracy gets larger, they make side deals with contractors that benefit them.

Government at its best!

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Just a couple of observations on this particular podcast. This wasn’t about fixing American education it was about fixing New York City and adjacent communities education. There were mentions of other states but no participants were from Texas or Florida etc.. The participants repeated heresy of what the educational experience is in those locations outside of New York, without direct knowledge.

We have a Federal Department of Education as well as either a department of Education or agency in charge of state education in every state as well as over 12,000 school districts. What I believe is needed is different approaches or plans to educating our children be offered to these 12,000 plus school districts to agree to try. All of the various departments of education need to measure the outcomes and results on a continuing basis. Then publish the results without comment, (excuses, rationalizations etc.). Then we could know what works for the most children to learn how to read or do math or to learn a different language or to play an instrument or to play a sport or write or make a bird house or fix a car... Then the educational professionals can work on identifying children that learn differently or don’t keep up with their peers and taylor plans that help those children without impairing the majority of children.

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What can we do about the public schools? Nothing. The system is un-reformable; it has too many built-in protections against reform. In fact, fighting off reform efforts is one of the things it does best, along with political indoctrination and tax money laundering.

The only possible answer is to bypass it. Unfortunately, there is no one-size-fits-all approach. The elites and the upper middle classes already send their children to private schools. I'm waiting for someone to reinvent the idea of the private school that targets the average student and does so at a lower tuition, but it still won't be affordable to everyone. Charter schools have helped in places where they have been able to hurdle the establishment obstacles. Home schooling is an option for some, and as it evolves into co-op schooling, it becomes more available. But it still isn't the answer for the single parent, or the working poor where both parents must work full time. Churches need to re-establish church schools; that might be the answer for those classes. But the church schools have to be real schools, and not just educational bypasses.

We'll have to pursue all of these things and more. Because the public school system isn't going to reform. Not now, not ever.

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Let’s blame the teachers unions for protecting bad teachers? The standard reply of those who have never worked in a school. Teachers are directed by principals and Superintendents. Not to mention politicians who know nothing about education formulating policy. What about bad principals, Bari? What about idiotic curriculums and teacher evaluations.

Here’s a few things to consider.

1. I had to argue with my principal and assistant principal to get them to commit to having our students memorize the multiplication tables. Any math teacher will tell you that you cannot build strong math students without it. You cannot do fractions, decimals, algebra - not to mention long division. But I was told research shows they don’t need that. I told them to find the research that supports it. (they didn’t like me). Look into those countries that are rated high in Math., Bari You see what they are required students to. do. They do not fool around.

2. Some Teachers evaluation systems require teachers to assess their students every 15 minutes. And if you do not do not, you cannot be an effective teacher. Every 15 minutes. Sure. It’s all the teachers fault.

3. It is so hard being a teacher these days that those who cannot hack it become administrators. Look at how young administrators are. They lack classroom experience. It shows in their decisions about curriculum and how to train teachers.

4. In NYC during COVID. There was always some in person classes. Even I. The spring of 2020 there were in person classes for children of first responders. Teachers were asked to volunteer and they did. The union developed a very strict health protocol and there was not one case of COVID. School opened more fully in September 2020 for those parents who wanted to send their children in. This is because the Union hired its own medical team and decided the policy and procedures to keep students and staff safe. YES THE UNION did that. And that is the UFT. The largest teacher’s union in the country

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One thing that jumped out at me was Richard's comment that 80% of private schools are religious (I'll take him at his word) and that their mission is religious indoctrination. That is patently false and opinion presented as fact continues to be the primary weapon of the Progressive movement and cannot go unchallenged. As anyone who grew up in the '70's and 80's when the integration movement was at its peak knows, parents of all stripes put their children in any private school available to get a quality education in line with their values. My kids went to public, Catholic and non-demominational Christian schools in the 2000's. The religious schools taught basic values I wanted my children to learn, not religious dogma, along with a more rigorous curriculum than the public school alternatives. My children's classmates were of all religious persuasions, as their parents had the same goals for their children.

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Just read "Inside American Education" by Thomas Sowell from 1993. Imagine if people just listened to Thomas Sowell? He called all of this 30 years ago and it's gotten worse.

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Thank you for mentioning Thomas Sowell. In his more recent book on Charter schools we come to " understand why and how educational success has been such unwelcome news to

so many people and institutions."

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I love the work you guys do but Michael completely missed what the problem is. You discussed unions and political ideology and book banning. This is meaningless. At no point was accountability of parents and students discussed. Let's look at an example of what I mean and this also addresses school choice. In Harlem there is the Harlem Academy I believe it is called. There was a 60 Minutes piece on it some years ago. To get your child in they have a lottery and let's say they only take 200 kids. Now let's say 400 want in. The results for the 200 kids that go there are good. The 200 that don't get in have to try somewhere else or go to their zoned school. This school gets all sorts of acclaim. I don't see the big deal. GIVE ME the other 200 that didn't get and I could create a school just as good. Why? Because you already won the battle. The parents care!!! Now all the kids whose families never even bothered just have their kids in the zoned school where they probably are not the best students. The schools like Harlem Academy and all these other schools where parents make the choice for their kids to go also have the ability to boot the student if they are a problem. The regular public schools don't get that luxury. We are stuck with the students that do nothing, misbehave and have parents that put little thought into their child's education. Completing school has to have real meaning and it should be important to all members of society that we have an educated citizenry. I am not sure what that real meaning should be but maybe the minimum of a diploma to work or collect. It's incredibly hard to teach when more and more of the students and parents make teaching difficult. You can't read a banned book if you can't read!

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I agree with everything you say but there’s another layer to it that you are missing: public schools promote this lack of accountability through Leftist ideology. You still think schools are run by people who want to teach students knowledge and subject matter; this is wrong. Schools are run by people who want to indoctrinate students into the ideology that generates a lack of individual accountability. They want students who depend on the State. Yes, it’s that corrupt.

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There isn't a school district in this entire region that I'm aware of where teachers are banding together to push for DEI strategies, books that hedge on gender-bending whatever, and lack of school choice. It is entirely possible and likely true that CFT (our state union) has some backdoor dealings in this shit, but teachers as a whole are so much more concerned with how in thee hell to promote literacy in their classrooms and within the communities in which they work.

Issues that are real and actually affect children (not from statistics and armchair discussions from on high):

1. Social Promotion. This is a long-standing issue and as literacy rates continue to drop (with research continuing to state that literacy achieved between 3-4 grades is typically where that kid will stay without massive academic and home interventions), schools continue to ignore this in favor of "feel-good" strategies that have zero to do with academic outcomes and everything to do with ensuring a false sense of belonging.

2. Literacy. Fact is, if you can't read, you're fucked. Period. There is no amount of anything else in this country that can help you reach beyond menial service jobs - forget hopes and dreams - if you can't read. Math and science are fucked for you if you can't read. History is a goner if you can't read. If you get to 5th grade and you can't read, statistics (you're welcome, armchair pundits) show that the liklihood of you ever being functionally literate drops exponentially as the years drag on. And that brings me to...

3. Testing/Tracking. I don't know when or why this has almost just stopped. Perhaps it was NCLB, perhaps it was when multi-million dollar publishing companies who were making the tests weren't the cheapest source for all the test prep materials they also made (so not bought) and scores went down, perhaps it was paying teachers for test scores (good Lord), but standardized testing that was actually used by more than school departments to "job-alike" support has disappeared. Even SAT testing sites have recently closed. How is it that anyone is supposed to put a fine gauge on student "success" without a standard fucking test regime?

4. Phones in school. This is, in my experience, the most salient and damaging element in schools right now. They are impossible to police (please don't give me a bullshit story about how your teacher friend does it so well), and if school (board, DO, admin) rules/accountability don't back no phones, there are phones. And they are monsterous. You cannot have serious academic anything with phones in the hands of that many kids in one place at one time.

I believe the DOE is fucked five ways to Sunday, not because bad teachers (whatever the hell that means), but because they are busy making deals with scumbags over three hour lunches and crunching numbers to ensure asses are in seats so they rake in more tax money. API is the driving force here, and it's never, ever, not about money. Follow it. If we spent even half the money on what might actually work in classrooms as we do in admin spending on bullshit (I can make a list but won't here), we'd be so much better off.

I am a high school teacher, so I see the results of all of the above. Our average reading level is about 6th grade, but that means everything from 3rd to 12th. I have a cap (sorry folks, but that's due to the union) of 38 kids per class and 175 a day. Our DO would have 45 in a class if they could (I know, they tried). They have created more bullshit admin positions since COVID than we have hired new teachers, yet our numbers are up. Over 80% of my students this year are below or far below reading levels for 11th and 12th grade. About 20% have IEPs that require that many accommodations by law. If I had time, the last thing I'd be doing is wielding the sword of social justice groupthink to indoctrinate students into cult politics and drag queen adaptive social climes. I'm way too busy sorting out how to work through FAFSA, ASVAB, career training options, and teaching junior- and senior-level texts to 4th grade readers with phones in hand, so spare me the rhetoric.

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It is a fact that too many adults, teachers, librarians, authors, editors, education graduate school professors, publishing companies, and various and sundry other insecure folks believe that elementary school should be a place for them to work out their psychological problems as adults on children. Give kids a chance to be kids, and that means curating the books they read in class and in the school library according to what is age appropriate for their communities. That is not censorship. That is just common sense.

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So whatever happened to the front page. It disappeared

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Kahlenberg claims public schools are a unifying force. This is a very outdated view. Today's schools divide and indoctrinate, not unify.

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The administrative industrial complex eats up funding for education. Rather than trickle down education funding that will theoretically make it to the student it is instead taken by administrative positions created to make traditional administrative jobs easier.

Many programs sound wonderful and seem worthy of funding but the teachers are often not involved and see no difference in their classrooms. The national, state and district offices grow but there’s little left for the students.

In my 20 years of teaching the story hasn’t changed:

Teachers need to stop trying to befriend students and impressing those with the same political beliefs. It’s our job to have standards, challenge students to think and be a kind, respectful, authority figure who can be a mentor should the student choose. It’s not my job to impress upon kids my ethics and my morality. Teachers are educators. Not activists.

Administrators need to stop undercutting the educational environment by lowering standards and bowing to pressure from particular parents.

Politicians need to stop attempting to capture young voters by introducing orthodoxy that must be followed or the parents will be deemed problematic.

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^^^ This.

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