Religion has faded across the West, but the hunger for meaning hasn’t. Steven Pinker and Ross Douthat debate whether a secular society can sustain itself.
I've read some of the comments. And I'm right. In a world where there is no absolute truth, we are left with "back and forth" that escalates. Most of the time some kind of inner prudence has us shifting gears and going back to our "netflix." But what if God really is "Immortal, Invisible God only wise?" A reference (It's weighty, serious, clear) to consider is "The God Who is There: Finding Your Place in God's Story" by D.A. Carson. A different approach is C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity." And just for fun, look for an online PDF (10 pages) called "The Poison of Subjectivity" also by C.S. Lewis.
"Chloé Valdary asked how Christians should reckon with the cruelty some people experience in God’s name, including rejection over sexuality."
Where does "cruelty" get it's definition? In a "there-are-no-absolutes" frame, your cruelty is my justice, and your justice is my cruelty. How do we discover a outside, fixed point of reference we can use to decide whether I'm right or you are? In a "there-are-no-absolutes" world, there is no such point of reference. So when we need an answer, we are left with efforts of persuasion of increasing power, lethality, and even cruelty for deciding. It's a mercy from God that He has designed us according to a plan. Our choice moves from "who's right?" to surrender or rebellion.
The question of whether we as human beings can develop a moral self and a just and moral society on our own is easily answered. Just look at the history of the West before Christianity.
It was splintered into so many violent tribes. Now it’s “The West”. Yes there has been a lot of violence and two of the worst world wars in world history in modern times, but those were the decisions of people.
Not Jesus’s fault. He helped bring down the Roman Empire without shedding a drop of blood. Tom Holland says that even Atheists are “swimming in Christian waters”, and do not know it.
Are you sure? I’m in the west, and it’s pretty darn quiet. My friend in Nigeria? Well her neighbors were burned alive in their church by Muslims.sane in Uganda, Niger, Sudan, CAR, DRC, Tanzania, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Rwanda… Are you sure it’s the West? I’ve asked before and you clearly CAN’T, but I’ll try again. Where are the current Christian wars? I gave you specific examples of Muslim wars. Can you go the same?
It’s not do we need God ( who knows) or do we need a moral framework for society. Religion has traditionally provided that…but different religions sure have different moral frameworks
There are at least three separate concepts at play: Human fascination with death and an afterlife, a God who guides us in life and an organized religion. For some people all three are important. Others focus on one or two. It's useful to not lump them all together. Personally, I think fascination with death and hope for an afterlife is the most universal.
I believe there are 3 types of people in the world, believers who are moral actors BECAUSE they want salvation, nonbelievers who do not care for salvation and hence do not believe they need to behave morally so the do not, and non believes who just know they should do the right thing always. Only the last group does not need some form of religious meaning to encourage morality and decency. I put myself in the last category, I was raised by an atheist who was the most moral man I have ever know and likely ever will know. My dad lived a decent moral life, giving people second chances, not talking badly about them or their prior misdeeds, and in fact scolded us for judging people poorly. He NEVER intentionally or unintentionally behaved badly and always did the right thing, including correcting sale clerks attempting to give him too much change.
The minute an invisible friend is involved, logic is pushed to the side, and some group of not-invisible people appear to tell us what the invisible guy says.
All we need for ethics and proper behavior is logic. What we lack is logic. Religion is a terrible crutch. Religious texts can be useful allegory, but are USELESS as a basis for law or logical argument.
Considering how many atheists believe in the trans dogma, I’d say that people are perfectly capable of pushing logic aside in the absence of an “invisible friend”, as you say.
As for religious texts being useful as the basis for law, I’ll believe that when a better system of law comes about that ISN’T based on religious texts, as the best ones are.
So I'm a Jew. I can walk into a synagogue in Paris, in Tokyo, in any part of the world and whether black, brown, however dressed, the people inside will recognize me as a Jew and we can instantly engage in a shared understanding and work together as breathren, colleagues, even something akin to family.
I don't say that to suggest that Judaism is right or wrong doctrinally (for the record, I'm an atheist) but it illustrates that people who fixate on the correctness of religious beliefs are completely missing the point.
Religion is an organizing principle for societies. It's possibly the most powerful technology our species has ever developed.
Now there are other shared ideas beside religion. The corporation. The nation state. The ethnicity. The secular law. Science. All of these could offer an alternative to religion. But at present it's an open question if they have the kind of universal, civilization binding power that religion has. I think it's a mistake to assume that what religion offers can be replaced so easily. There's a reason why every single civilization known in human history until very recently was organized in part around religion. There's some reason to think it may even be baked into us at the level of our DNA.
Which doesn't make me any less of an atheist. But it does raise the question whether or not we need God, even if he isn't really there.
No ignorant idiot, it’s based on man having rights given by his god that can’t be removed by the State. Crack a book ffs. Like my right to drive a car alone, to show my hair, wear shorts, just like all of the Muslim oh wait nope.
Well you’re not smart so this isn’t going to be as entertaining as I hoped. But since you’re such an enormous dickhead, I’ll stick with it on principle.
Douthat never says, but would be forced to admit, that he really wants a Christian theocracy. That’s where things logically end up for these religious conservatives.
You should listen to him closely. And others like him. Try Douglas Wilson. And then look at the entire history of monotheistic religions. You're welcome.
So you can read inside his mind? Do you feel so strongly against Islamic theocracies?can you point to an existing Christian theocracy outside of The Vatican? Hmm TayTay!?
First answer. No. And that is a dumb question. Second answer, yes, don't you? (I'm sure you are.) Third, no. And thanks to the european religious wars that exhausted them, and the enlightenment thinkers who took them out. But still, theocracy is the holy grail of monotheisms.
The short answer is Yes, we need Gd. The West is now conflicted with Islamism raging across the world. The media is so Islamophobic along with our lefty leaders. Please find Gd, Jesus, whatever you want to believe in. Just believe in a supreme authority. Secularism will never replace spiritualism as a viable alternative.
Things That Matter sponsored by Bank of America??!?!?! What's up with THAT????
I've read some of the comments. And I'm right. In a world where there is no absolute truth, we are left with "back and forth" that escalates. Most of the time some kind of inner prudence has us shifting gears and going back to our "netflix." But what if God really is "Immortal, Invisible God only wise?" A reference (It's weighty, serious, clear) to consider is "The God Who is There: Finding Your Place in God's Story" by D.A. Carson. A different approach is C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity." And just for fun, look for an online PDF (10 pages) called "The Poison of Subjectivity" also by C.S. Lewis.
Can a secular society sustain itself? Yes, but on a long decline right into a sewer.
"Chloé Valdary asked how Christians should reckon with the cruelty some people experience in God’s name, including rejection over sexuality."
Where does "cruelty" get it's definition? In a "there-are-no-absolutes" frame, your cruelty is my justice, and your justice is my cruelty. How do we discover a outside, fixed point of reference we can use to decide whether I'm right or you are? In a "there-are-no-absolutes" world, there is no such point of reference. So when we need an answer, we are left with efforts of persuasion of increasing power, lethality, and even cruelty for deciding. It's a mercy from God that He has designed us according to a plan. Our choice moves from "who's right?" to surrender or rebellion.
The question of whether we as human beings can develop a moral self and a just and moral society on our own is easily answered. Just look at the history of the West before Christianity.
It was splintered into so many violent tribes. Now it’s “The West”. Yes there has been a lot of violence and two of the worst world wars in world history in modern times, but those were the decisions of people.
Not Jesus’s fault. He helped bring down the Roman Empire without shedding a drop of blood. Tom Holland says that even Atheists are “swimming in Christian waters”, and do not know it.
Solid stuff
It is "the West" thanks to the enlightenment thinkers who brought us out of religious wars and tribalism.
Are you sure? I’m in the west, and it’s pretty darn quiet. My friend in Nigeria? Well her neighbors were burned alive in their church by Muslims.sane in Uganda, Niger, Sudan, CAR, DRC, Tanzania, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Rwanda… Are you sure it’s the West? I’ve asked before and you clearly CAN’T, but I’ll try again. Where are the current Christian wars? I gave you specific examples of Muslim wars. Can you go the same?
It’s not do we need God ( who knows) or do we need a moral framework for society. Religion has traditionally provided that…but different religions sure have different moral frameworks
A better question is does God need us?
He does not. But for the sake of His Glory, and from a starting point of Love, he created us nonetheless. Wondrous thing!
There are at least three separate concepts at play: Human fascination with death and an afterlife, a God who guides us in life and an organized religion. For some people all three are important. Others focus on one or two. It's useful to not lump them all together. Personally, I think fascination with death and hope for an afterlife is the most universal.
The title is baffling. It should just be: “Do We Need Superstition?”
I believe the answer to this may be yes.
I believe there are 3 types of people in the world, believers who are moral actors BECAUSE they want salvation, nonbelievers who do not care for salvation and hence do not believe they need to behave morally so the do not, and non believes who just know they should do the right thing always. Only the last group does not need some form of religious meaning to encourage morality and decency. I put myself in the last category, I was raised by an atheist who was the most moral man I have ever know and likely ever will know. My dad lived a decent moral life, giving people second chances, not talking badly about them or their prior misdeeds, and in fact scolded us for judging people poorly. He NEVER intentionally or unintentionally behaved badly and always did the right thing, including correcting sale clerks attempting to give him too much change.
Not a chance.
The minute an invisible friend is involved, logic is pushed to the side, and some group of not-invisible people appear to tell us what the invisible guy says.
All we need for ethics and proper behavior is logic. What we lack is logic. Religion is a terrible crutch. Religious texts can be useful allegory, but are USELESS as a basis for law or logical argument.
Considering how many atheists believe in the trans dogma, I’d say that people are perfectly capable of pushing logic aside in the absence of an “invisible friend”, as you say.
As for religious texts being useful as the basis for law, I’ll believe that when a better system of law comes about that ISN’T based on religious texts, as the best ones are.
So I'm a Jew. I can walk into a synagogue in Paris, in Tokyo, in any part of the world and whether black, brown, however dressed, the people inside will recognize me as a Jew and we can instantly engage in a shared understanding and work together as breathren, colleagues, even something akin to family.
I don't say that to suggest that Judaism is right or wrong doctrinally (for the record, I'm an atheist) but it illustrates that people who fixate on the correctness of religious beliefs are completely missing the point.
Religion is an organizing principle for societies. It's possibly the most powerful technology our species has ever developed.
Now there are other shared ideas beside religion. The corporation. The nation state. The ethnicity. The secular law. Science. All of these could offer an alternative to religion. But at present it's an open question if they have the kind of universal, civilization binding power that religion has. I think it's a mistake to assume that what religion offers can be replaced so easily. There's a reason why every single civilization known in human history until very recently was organized in part around religion. There's some reason to think it may even be baked into us at the level of our DNA.
Which doesn't make me any less of an atheist. But it does raise the question whether or not we need God, even if he isn't really there.
Wasn't the US explicitly not founded on the organizing principal of religion?
No ignorant idiot, it’s based on man having rights given by his god that can’t be removed by the State. Crack a book ffs. Like my right to drive a car alone, to show my hair, wear shorts, just like all of the Muslim oh wait nope.
That's debatable Taylor but not really relevant to the point I was making.
I thought I didn’t. I was wrong.
Good for you. Now leave the rest of us alone.
Another example proving the fallacy of the open-minded, tolerant non-believer.
Oh did I just hear a challenge, TaylorChase? I’m in training aaaaallllll day long. You are now today’s distraction.
I'm here to help you get through your training day.
Well you’re not smart so this isn’t going to be as entertaining as I hoped. But since you’re such an enormous dickhead, I’ll stick with it on principle.
Douthat never says, but would be forced to admit, that he really wants a Christian theocracy. That’s where things logically end up for these religious conservatives.
Theocracy? How could you misunderstand Douthat that entirely?
You have to listen what is not spoken, Taylor is saying. I don’t think he understands that we can’t hear the voices he does.
You should listen to him closely. And others like him. Try Douglas Wilson. And then look at the entire history of monotheistic religions. You're welcome.
So you can read inside his mind? Do you feel so strongly against Islamic theocracies?can you point to an existing Christian theocracy outside of The Vatican? Hmm TayTay!?
First answer. No. And that is a dumb question. Second answer, yes, don't you? (I'm sure you are.) Third, no. And thanks to the european religious wars that exhausted them, and the enlightenment thinkers who took them out. But still, theocracy is the holy grail of monotheisms.
So that’s a no? You can’t point to a Christian theocracy.
The larger question is this: Do we need unicorns?
The short answer is Yes, we need Gd. The West is now conflicted with Islamism raging across the world. The media is so Islamophobic along with our lefty leaders. Please find Gd, Jesus, whatever you want to believe in. Just believe in a supreme authority. Secularism will never replace spiritualism as a viable alternative.
Islamists have a deep belief in god
You don’t mean this. You don’t want us to believe in Allah or Buddha. You really want us to believe in your own god.
I want you to believe IN ME, TaylorChase. I think someone got sent to a private Christian school and now has A HUGE chip in his tiny shoulder.
Leigh, if you're gonna have fun on your training day, you gotta give me something better than this stuff.
I’m still hoping you can answer a direct question. Any. Try this. Where are the current Christian theocracies?
I’m not looking for converts, I’m just looking for people to believe in a just/fair Gd. Definitely not Allah.
Why is it important to you what I believe in?
Because you answer everyone in a sad and negative manner and we all just want something better for you, Tay. Look to the light. Then follow it.
The validity of the Bible can be summarized in a single sentence that goes all the way back to ancient Roman times:
"Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus".
Unfortunately this undermines the bible, because by this standard only one line needs to be shown to be wrong for the whole to collapse.