54 Comments

Unfettered leftism needs to be stopped. One hundred sixty six years of off the rail lunacy must end.

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The church doesn't let women become priests. It should not be a surprise that it doesn't let gay men become priests either. You might not agree with it, but the Catholic Church's thinking on it is they want priests to focus primarily on their relationship with God, remove temptations, etc. Perhaps he could have chosen better words though.

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"not to admit “hysterical queers” in seminaries, even those who are only “semi-oriented.”

OK, can you blame him for not wanting flamboyant priests trying to make a political Identity statement. The long arch of history moves slow. The public accepted gay marriage and then the LGBTQXYZ........... went nuts with pronouns and gender fluid "its a construct" Just let the church catch up alittle

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May 30·edited May 30

The Church doesn’t need to ‘catch up’ on this subject. Homosexual practice is a sin per Scriptures. The Church still loves the sinner but not the sin. Agree to disagree, and carry on.

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So what we are learning is that Pope Francis is a coward. Unlike Pope John Paul II. Well, this is par for the state of the world. Joe Biden is a coward. Barack Obama is a coward. Angela Merkle is a coward. Every British politician since Thatcher has been a coward...

Moral cowardice is now virtue.

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If you are a Catholic, you do necessarily respect the hierarchy of the Papacy, which Christ ordained. Jesus spoke directly to the question of divorce and remarriage. Those who divorce and remarry commit adultery. You may trust other “co-creators” to end a life. The Pope cannot. Picking and choosing what you like is not how doctrine works. There are gays and adulterers among my own family. I love them with all my heart and ask God for his blessings on them. I know they do the same for me because while my sins may be different from theirs, it is just as serious in God’s eyes, and I need his forgiveness every bit as much as they do. But I don’t ask the Church to tell me that my sins are not sins. The Church is there to help me recognize them and practice virtues in place of vices. Don’t mean to preach here but thought it needed saying.

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The Pope, especially this one, seems more a politician than anything else. Maybe not being Catholic presents a bias here, but he strikes me as a particularly unintelligent, uneducated and ungracious person.

So I see this as a non-story. Uneducated person makes unpleasant comments about gay people.

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founding

As a Catholic, who does not necessarily respect the hierarchy of the Papacy, Pope Francis is just completely getting “his messages from God’ all mixed up. Here let me help you out Your Eminence: God Said, ‘It’s ok to bless same sex couples (duh), it’s okay to allow contraception and also allow IVF. Women (and Men) are co-creating with God for new life- nothing should interrupt this holy thing… abortion, it is so far against the Church teachings and God is light, love, and life… so forget about Biden and Pelosi and yes, please do reconsider those of us who want communion but d

Have divorced.

The church can change, though slowly it must. But come on, he is not the end all be all for Catholics. I fully accept other Women’s rights to seek their own privacy and decision. Abortion will never be an option for me but I trust other Women, co creators, to make the decisions for themselves. Same sex couples - oh please! We are all so done with any stigma. Of course they should get communion too. Earth to Pope Francis, it’s not a sin! And it’s been around forever- and I have to giggle: this coming from the Papacy which everyone knows is a giant homosexual group?!

I guess I may get excommunicated after this rant

But let’s not ever forget the child abusing 🤬

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A perfect example of leftist lunacy. Thanks for the refresher glimpse.

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After the great popes of the 20th Century we were due for one of great mediocrity. If he is in line with Church teaching on homosexuality, he should be clear and firm about it like JPII and B16. Playing games doesn't do anyone any service. As to faggotry, it's been obvious for decades that there are elements in the gay community that are hysterical and extremely narcissistic (Look at me! Love me!!!!!). A man who has homosexual attractions but is genuinely called to chaste celibacy should welcome in seminary. A man who desires sexual relations with other men, should work out his salvation somewhere else. The LGB movement had a point that no one should be discriminated against in work, housing, public accommodations, going about one's daily life etc. But attacks on the Church and increasing hysterical militancy is just building a backlash.

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This is what the Catholic Church is , the idea that that the Pope was different has been a fantasy of the press. If anything his english sucks in that he doesn't understand that you need to make a lot of statements to clarify a general statement else it will be misunderstood which is has been. The status of gays/trans in the church has not changed and always has been the same. The Catholic faithful are the ones that have changed and made things a mess and the church is trying to clarify to them now that things have gotten into a mess of wrong ideas. The bishops have made this clear to the pope and he is trying to clarify , to them and the faithful and yet again his english sucks in word usage.

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I wonder where the controversy is from an Imam? Why always the Catholic/Christian harassing? Of course these religions should not bend to the trends of the day. That being said, I believe most churches are clear about not loving the sin but loving the sinner. We have lost our way when we can't have honest and frank conversations about this. Just because you don't agree with someone's lifestyle doesn't mean you hate them. I've never cared about these issues: live and let live and have felt that the Catholic church has approached them well when they sermon about loving everyone, no need to make them bend the knee to gender ideology.

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The story isn't really about Catholicism so much as it's about this particular pope, who has taken positions on a range of issues that would seem inconsistent with Catholic doctrine, or seem motivated by a desire to be a guest on The View.

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The Pope’s position is very easy to understand, if one can stop seeing the world in a dichotomous black and white where you either hate and revile, or love and embrace, same-sex attraction.

The Pope supports the Church’s position that homosexuality is an “intrinsic disorder.” So is cancer. You don’t hate a person who has cancer—that is wrong. But you don’t encourage or indulge the cancer. It’s the old chestnut “hate the sin, not the sinner.” And on this, the Pope has been utterly consistent. What he has emphasized—and what has confused a lot of people—is the compassion we must have for all fellow humans, regardless of our intrinsic disorders.

I might add all of us, including the Pope, have personal views, occasionally made public, about both same-sex attraction and the Church’s position. I, for one, consider same-sex attraction fabulous and the Church’s position incorrect. But I understand its position on its own terms, and that’s what we need to do.

The Pope apologized for his words because he realized that, in using those words, he had failed his own call for this compassion. He’s human; he made a mistake (in a private meeting); he apologized. His public position on both subjects—homosexuality and compassion—remain constant. His personal views are irrelevant.

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Why does the Catholic Church believe it's a sin? If it's because the Church believes people should get married and be monogamous, if a same sex attracted couple only had sex once they were married, would that mean it's not a sin? If it's because same sex couples can't have biological children together, does the Church also believe it's a sin if infertile or older, post-menopausal, couples get married too?

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May 30·edited May 30

Cassandra, it’s considered a sin by Church for three reasons:

1. The Bible sets up at the beginning that a man and a woman become one flesh. That's God's way of doing sexuality. To do it differently is seen by Church as a distortion or dysfunction of the way God made it.

2. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 the Apostle Paul provides a list of sins (homosexuality included) along w/ greed and covetousness that if you “do such things one will not enter the kingdom of heaven”. In other words, if you know that it's wrong and you say, "I don't care that it's wrong. I don't care what God says. I'm going to do that thing," that's an indication that you're not going into the kingdom of heaven.

3. Homosexuality is seen as a form of idolatry. There are also many other forms of idolatry (such as the love of money). When one exchanges the glory of God for idols, one that can be exchanged is for yourself. The idol that you have is yourself, rather than God. Well, what sex is yourself? In exchanging God for our most cherished idol, which in the case of self - one can be prone to fall in love with the same sex.

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They believe it is a sin because same-sex marriage is not considered valid. So it is, regardless of legal marriage status, pre-marital sex.

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And non-procreative sex outside of the confines of the type of family unit of which the church approves.

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First, let's be clear: same-sex attraction by itself is considered an intrinsic disorder, not a "sin." If the attraction turns into behavior, then it lapses into the category of sin.

That said, the question has a long complicated answer. Briefly, there are several lines of argument, including:

1. Historic/cultural tradition;

2. Biblical teaching;

3. Natural law.

There are others, but those are the biggies, each of which could fill a book (or several). It's not primarily about sex or fertility, though eventually these things get drawn in as well.

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Crazy that there are homophobes on the site founded by a bisexual woman married to a woman.

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LoL homophobe. Yeah. Seldom correct, never in doubt.

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JT PhD is not a homophobe, he’s just explaining Catholic Church teaching. It is exactly what he says it is, and I say that as a Catholic with 13 years of Catholic school, a cousin who’s a Jesuit priest, and the mother of a gay son. I’m also married to a Methodist and I can tell you from having had to do pre-Cana counseling in order to get married in the Catholic Church that having children and procreating is a huge part of the religion. Our priest told us that we had to be “open to having children”, and while it was sorta okay to use birth control, we had to “intend to have children” at some point in the marriage. My best friend from high school told her priest that she intended to never have children, she didn’t want any. Her priest refused to marry her in the Church, so she left and joined the Episcopal Church.

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Bari and Nellie are both lesbians. Neither one of them is bisexual. And the TFP comments are heavy with anti-LGBT commenters. They hide it for the most part due to the founders. The main reason they like TFP is that they view it as being anti-woke, anti-liberal, anti-left, anti-progressive, and anti-Democratic Party. They even say they accept LGB, but not TQIA+, because that way they can accept Bari and Nellie but still hate trans, queer, etc. Bari and Nellie seem to be opposed to trans women due to their own brand of feminism. The commenters like this as well.

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Bari has an ex-husband and is apparently “mostly” attracted to women, which would qualify as bisexual.

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Thanks for the info on the ex-husband. When I checked Bari’s Wikipedia page it said that she doesn’t like to have her sexuality labeled, but that she admitted to being, as you say, “mostly attracted to women”. My mother worked with a woman who was married to a man and had 4 children, but in middle age got divorced and came out as a lesbian. She lived with her female partner for the rest of her life. So simply having been married to the opposite sex doesn’t necessarily mean you’re bisexual. But I do get your point.

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Wow. Zero to a hundred in five seconds. I'm not a homophobe; I'm gay. I was raised Catholic and know the faith, but I'm an atheist. However, because I'm an adult, I can see things from the perspective of the Church and understand it, even if I don't agree.

I hope you grow up and achieve adulthood too.

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May 29·edited May 29

Agree, although there is a lot of anti-gay rhetoric occurring on a regular basis in TFP comments, just not from you. I don’t know what happened exactly with this latest kerfuffle about Francis, but my guess is that he’s opposed to the type of hidden gay culture that exists in the Catholic priesthood, especially at the Vatican. Our diocesan priest friend who spent 4 years in Rome at the Pontifical North American College (degrees in both Theology and Canon Law) calls it “The Pink Mafia”. This is what Francis wants to get rid of. Some of these guys prance around in the kind of robes that make them look like drag queens. They’re not subtle, and this is what Francis is opposed to, the pomp and circumstance.

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Thanks for that. To be clear, I'm trying to be as neutral as possible and merely contextualize Francis' comment and subsequent apology, speaking as a former Catholic who understands the Church. I'm very pro-gay, but not anti-Catholic.

Conservative Catholics see Francis as a progressive, because he is to the left of his predecessors. Conversely, progressive Catholics still see Francis, especially at moments like this one, as still too far to the right. In fact, he's one of the most centrist Popes we've had in a long time, maybe since Saint Peter. And while I don't agree with the Church's position, I respect that Francis is trying to be faithful to both Church teaching and, as he would say, human dignity.

I expect his outburst--again, in a private meeting--was probably out of exasperation with his colleagues. The priesthood is in need of lots of reform. And I can say that, when I was a younger gay man, we all had a priest story. Mine was very mild (an overnight at the rectory), but some of them involved BSM and Satanic rituals. I am not making that up (though it's possible my friend was making it up).

All to say, I think you've pretty much got the right of it. As for the unusual amount of anti-gay rhetoric, I think it speaks to 1) the fact that TFP draws more readers from the political right than the political left, and 2) people who comment are mostly pedants like myself, narcissistic whack-jobs, or the rare nice person like yourself. :-)

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Why are we shocked about this? Another person in a powerful leadership role can’t lead and essentially stick to his standards and uphold some form of integrity. I can’t help but think that this meeting the Pope had which resulting in this slur was prompted by a report by a Catholic monk in the United States that came out as transgender (he was a woman that became a man). I only assumed that by the language the Pope used to suggest not allowing “over the top” members of the gay community into essentially the priesthood.

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I am an observant catholic. I love attending church. I try my best to live by the doctrine. This Pope is CINO. Catholic in name only. He's a product of Argentine Liberation Theology. I.e., he's a f------ moron. He's weak and unwilling to stand up for anything that violates his Leftist upbringing. He SHOULD be willing to violate his Leftism at the alter of, well THE ALTER! He's infallible in all matters doctrinal. In all other matters he's an idiot. Dear Pope Francis, stick to The Gospels. That's a good lesson for all Catholics.

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Not enough people are familiar with Liberation Theology, unfortunately.

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May 29·edited May 29

The Pope is only infallible when he speaks ex cathedra, “from the chair” of Peter. There are special words he has to use as a preface to such pronouncements (usually in writing)and if he doesn’t use those words then the pronouncement is NOT infallible even if it’s “doctrine”. I am Catholic. My cousin is a Jesuit priest and my H’s best friend is a diocesan priest. Both of them have 4 year doctoral degrees in Theology. My cousin’s is from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome, and our friend’s is from the Pontifical North American College in Rome. The friend also has a degree in Canon Law from the PNAC. Both of these men consider Francis to be the best Pope we’ve ever had. They also think the Vatican needs a good house cleaning, which is what he’s doing. They don’t call it the Pink Mafia for nothing.

So, the Pope is not infallible in ALL matters doctrinal, only a select few. And you used ALTER twice, once in CAPS, so how that didn’t jump off the page and hit you in the face as being incorrect is beyond me.

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I again stand corrected. I do appreciate the clarification.

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I was raised Catholic and taught catechism for ten years. If you are truly an "observant Catholic," then you should know, first and foremost, that the Church values obedience to authority, especially to the hierarchy, and ultimately to the Pope. Your vulgar and ill-informed diatribe pretty much puts the lie to your claim.

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Vulgar? I plead guilty. Obedience? Yes, but blindly? Am I not allowed to disagree with The Pope? As for lie, I'm not sure I see where I lied. Wrong? Entirely possible, but lie, I must disagree.

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You may humbly disagree. And then, obey. BTW, in the Sacrament of Reconciliation (known to most as "confession"), absolution is contingent on true penitence. You bore false witness when you claimed to be an observant "catholic" [sic] and then went off against the Pope in a highly inappropriate way.

Acknowledging guilt is a good first step. Continue examining your conscience, and when you come to the full realization of your sins, get back to me or your parish priest. Amen.

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Altar. 'Alter' is a verb that means 'to change'

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I stand corrected. Thank you. In my defense I will say I foolishly relied on the spell-check function.

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The FP asks: How Does the Pope Really Feel About Gay Rights?

You can't tell. "Gay rights" is not the same thing as the Catholic Church approving of gay marriage or ordination. Not a fan of Pope Francis, at all, but the headline is misleading. Perhaps "How Does the Pope Really Feel About Gay Priests?" Then the answer is pretty clear.

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The article mentions "seminars." The correct translation is "seminaries."

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Thanks. I wondered what seminars he was talking about.

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May 29·edited May 29

And the Catholics who follow the church would like clarification as well. The back forth isn’t something we’re a fan of either. Stick to a position or don’t, instead of playing word games and pulling from the Juan Peron playbook.

His pussyfooted approach is going to lose many of us, though if he takes a tact that goes against church teachings, the RCC will likely hemorrhage many more people.

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