I used to scold my wife for allowing our daughters to watch Sex In The City. I knew instinctively that the shit I saw being peddled on that show was not empowering my daughters, but was rather, leading them down a dangerous path led by angry feminists; feminists who were getting back at men for men's apparent propensity to cheat. Take that you guys, we can be the unfaithful dogs that you can be was the message I was hearing. I also knew instinctively that this kind of message was the quintessential example of biting off your nose to spite your face. If male unfaithfulness is a problem that needs addressing, then why not talk about how we can teach young men to become more faithful. I think the worst thing that feminism did to women was to teach them that it was acceptable to spew hatred toward men as a solution to male misbehavior. And it was within our college gender studies classes where women were taught to lead with this kind of hatred. What should be taught in these classes is that we are all in this together and that it benefits all of us to learn how to engage in civil discussions related to gender issues. Instead, this us versus them template is used and look at where that has brought us! Just google "angry feminist" and you'll see that this kind of female anger is celebrated. Wow, teaching women to be rage filled is really helpful in this time of rage isn't it! God bless all Americans!
I am so relieved that other women and feminists are recognizing how incredibly damaging and exploitative our “women are equal to men.” We are equal in VALUE and we deserve EQUAL rights but we will never be EQUAL.
"Men are (on average) far more interested than women are in casual sex, buying sex, watching porn, and experimenting with unusual fetishes." This is the game of putting together unlike things and pretending they are the same. First off, the question is about consensual sex, not buying sexy or watching porn. You are being wildly disingenuous.
"Get drunk or high in private and with female friends, rather than in public or in mixed company." Why should they drink at all? Are you suggesting that women who get drunk at a party are ASKING FOR IS? What kind of puritanical moron are you?
"Only have sex with a man if you think he would make a good father to your children" That's why women advocate for birth control, because no one knows who is a worthy candidate for fatherhood when you're dating. This is the abstinence argument. I think you may be sniffing glue.
At 80, I find this is just good old common sense. I don't agree the men "fundamentally hostile" toward women. Sure there are some and they're relatively easy to spot. You might think I'm just an old guy who doesn't understand. At least I don't think that's true. I generally go to a bar once or twice a week that is considered the best dive bar around and is mostly populated by people, men and women under 30. I am always the oldest person in the bar. I've frequented this bar for over 20 years. It's kind of my neighborhood hang out. And, no, I'm not an alcoholic. I was a professional in a major industry and a psychology major in college and grad school. I like to think I'm a trained observer. All the service worker are known to me, all much younger. It's relatively easy to spot the creepy guys and ladies who are looking for some companionship, short or long term. The girl craving attention from the good looking bartender is easy to spot as are guys trying to get close to the better than average woman in the bar. I'm certainly not the last word on this issue but I do think it always comes down to common sense. Parents and the family environment are the major contributors to deviant behavior. Then there are those who adore Trump. Can't forget about them.
Times aren’t the same as the we’re almost 50 years ago. With women now viewed as victims, men are at a distinct disadvantage. What’s more, the pool of candidates who see things your way has shrunken materially. I’m not a Christian, but attendance at religious services have hit real lows. The 60s screwed up a lot of our national values and it’s been a slide downhill since.
So I don’t know if I could make the same choices now that I did nearly 50 years ago.
While I agree with much of your common sense advice, I am disappointed that you conflate feminism with sexism. One of the goals of feminism is to allow women to make decisions about their sexual autonomy without being slut shamed. This doesn’t mean that women should behave in ways that are not in their best interests. If they are tired of being someone’s sloppy seconds, posting sexually explicit pictures of themselves on Instagram and participating in other soul crushing and destructive behavior, they should resist the cultural pressure to do so. But it’s sexism not feminism that pushes women to participate in these rituals. Since time eternal, society has placed a higher value on women’s looks than capabilities and today’s young women remain trapped in the same series of fun house mirrors: everywhere they look they see a diminished version of themselves. They post and pose and try to win men’s favor because they are told directly and indirectly from puberty onward that their value comes from having male approval. Women would be wise to own up to this impossible paradox and push back about against the impossible beauty standards to which they are held. But this does not mean that should give up their hard won freedom. We all want the same thing: respect. Suggesting that one is only possible without the other is dangerous and divisive.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! As a mother of 1 daughter and 2 sons and the grandmother of 6, I have been saying for a long time that pornography, app dating and Viagra have really changed the dynamics of sex and relationships for young and older women (there is no viagra for us and I am not so sure we want it). Sex is a beautiful gift and orgasm is just plain and simple really great like warm chocolate cake. How sad for our culture. WE must raise our children, both boys and girls, to respect themselves and one another and to appreciate the gift of our sexual bodies. The best part of growing up and exploring sex is the mystery and the awkwardness. What a shame that pornography and social media are the example and not the warning.
I listened to the podcast that Bari hosted with Louise. What was notable in the discussion was the quality and thoughtfulness of Louise’s comments, based on her research and clear-eyed treatment of the subject.
What was equally predictable was the strident refusal to accept any of what Louise said by her debate opponent.
While this article, published on Bari’s SubStack column, is helpful, I also wonder whether it gets any traction in the broader media. The journals with wide circulation that influence our politicians and institutions are a very biased and one-sided take on what is right for our culture and, even, what the large majority believes (see abortion). That is driving a wedge into the heart of the United States, and this wedge is not being led by White Nationalists, mainly male. It is a fringe of progressive Americans who are intimidating the rest of the country with quackery, calling themselves scientific rationalists when they are clearly something different.
I often joke that people hear that I’m a millennial that got married at 22 and they assume I’m a Mormon. I hooked up some as a freshman in college and had on again/off again boyfriends. But I was miserable. I hated wondering if someone only wanted to have sex with me or really liked me. I was actually friends with my husband throughout freshman year. I always enjoyed talking and just hanging out with him. When we started dating when I was a sophomore it just all clicked into place. I frequently get asked if I regret getting married young. There were times I wondered if I would be a different person. But I’m 28, have a mortgage, have a baby and have gotten to go to a few foreign countries with my best friend. I find my younger Millennial/GennZ talk about how they’d rather have my life than a bunch of “sexually liberated” Hook ups. For so long, showing a married 20 something was considered boring. I think the appetite now is for stability for younger women and that should be embraced.
Have always been intrigued by Camille Paglia. The video of her reacting to being informed of Jordan Peterson's travails upon refusing to use "preferred pronouns" despite a Toronto ordinance is a classic takedown of identity political authoritarianism. Check out:
I used to scold my wife for allowing our daughters to watch Sex In The City. I knew instinctively that the shit I saw being peddled on that show was not empowering my daughters, but was rather, leading them down a dangerous path led by angry feminists; feminists who were getting back at men for men's apparent propensity to cheat. Take that you guys, we can be the unfaithful dogs that you can be was the message I was hearing. I also knew instinctively that this kind of message was the quintessential example of biting off your nose to spite your face. If male unfaithfulness is a problem that needs addressing, then why not talk about how we can teach young men to become more faithful. I think the worst thing that feminism did to women was to teach them that it was acceptable to spew hatred toward men as a solution to male misbehavior. And it was within our college gender studies classes where women were taught to lead with this kind of hatred. What should be taught in these classes is that we are all in this together and that it benefits all of us to learn how to engage in civil discussions related to gender issues. Instead, this us versus them template is used and look at where that has brought us! Just google "angry feminist" and you'll see that this kind of female anger is celebrated. Wow, teaching women to be rage filled is really helpful in this time of rage isn't it! God bless all Americans!
From a non-feminist woman with a beautiful, non-feminist, civil engineer daughter, I could not agree more!
Use a search engine. Your ignorance is not my problem.
I am so relieved that other women and feminists are recognizing how incredibly damaging and exploitative our “women are equal to men.” We are equal in VALUE and we deserve EQUAL rights but we will never be EQUAL.
"Men are (on average) far more interested than women are in casual sex, buying sex, watching porn, and experimenting with unusual fetishes." This is the game of putting together unlike things and pretending they are the same. First off, the question is about consensual sex, not buying sexy or watching porn. You are being wildly disingenuous.
"Get drunk or high in private and with female friends, rather than in public or in mixed company." Why should they drink at all? Are you suggesting that women who get drunk at a party are ASKING FOR IS? What kind of puritanical moron are you?
"Only have sex with a man if you think he would make a good father to your children" That's why women advocate for birth control, because no one knows who is a worthy candidate for fatherhood when you're dating. This is the abstinence argument. I think you may be sniffing glue.
At 80, I find this is just good old common sense. I don't agree the men "fundamentally hostile" toward women. Sure there are some and they're relatively easy to spot. You might think I'm just an old guy who doesn't understand. At least I don't think that's true. I generally go to a bar once or twice a week that is considered the best dive bar around and is mostly populated by people, men and women under 30. I am always the oldest person in the bar. I've frequented this bar for over 20 years. It's kind of my neighborhood hang out. And, no, I'm not an alcoholic. I was a professional in a major industry and a psychology major in college and grad school. I like to think I'm a trained observer. All the service worker are known to me, all much younger. It's relatively easy to spot the creepy guys and ladies who are looking for some companionship, short or long term. The girl craving attention from the good looking bartender is easy to spot as are guys trying to get close to the better than average woman in the bar. I'm certainly not the last word on this issue but I do think it always comes down to common sense. Parents and the family environment are the major contributors to deviant behavior. Then there are those who adore Trump. Can't forget about them.
Times aren’t the same as the we’re almost 50 years ago. With women now viewed as victims, men are at a distinct disadvantage. What’s more, the pool of candidates who see things your way has shrunken materially. I’m not a Christian, but attendance at religious services have hit real lows. The 60s screwed up a lot of our national values and it’s been a slide downhill since.
So I don’t know if I could make the same choices now that I did nearly 50 years ago.
Beri,
I couldn’t finish your interview. It was too personal for me.
I was a 6’2”, 185 lb blond haired high school senior in 1980. How do you think things went for me in those days?
Now I’m 60, with gray receding hair.
I’ve had time to think without the turbo charged hormones raging through my brain.
Some things are sacred and holy.
Our bodies are not play things. Nor are our minds.
Thank you for your brave intellectual piece. May it save the next generation of men and women….and perhaps their children too.
While I agree with much of your common sense advice, I am disappointed that you conflate feminism with sexism. One of the goals of feminism is to allow women to make decisions about their sexual autonomy without being slut shamed. This doesn’t mean that women should behave in ways that are not in their best interests. If they are tired of being someone’s sloppy seconds, posting sexually explicit pictures of themselves on Instagram and participating in other soul crushing and destructive behavior, they should resist the cultural pressure to do so. But it’s sexism not feminism that pushes women to participate in these rituals. Since time eternal, society has placed a higher value on women’s looks than capabilities and today’s young women remain trapped in the same series of fun house mirrors: everywhere they look they see a diminished version of themselves. They post and pose and try to win men’s favor because they are told directly and indirectly from puberty onward that their value comes from having male approval. Women would be wise to own up to this impossible paradox and push back about against the impossible beauty standards to which they are held. But this does not mean that should give up their hard won freedom. We all want the same thing: respect. Suggesting that one is only possible without the other is dangerous and divisive.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! As a mother of 1 daughter and 2 sons and the grandmother of 6, I have been saying for a long time that pornography, app dating and Viagra have really changed the dynamics of sex and relationships for young and older women (there is no viagra for us and I am not so sure we want it). Sex is a beautiful gift and orgasm is just plain and simple really great like warm chocolate cake. How sad for our culture. WE must raise our children, both boys and girls, to respect themselves and one another and to appreciate the gift of our sexual bodies. The best part of growing up and exploring sex is the mystery and the awkwardness. What a shame that pornography and social media are the example and not the warning.
I listened to the podcast that Bari hosted with Louise. What was notable in the discussion was the quality and thoughtfulness of Louise’s comments, based on her research and clear-eyed treatment of the subject.
What was equally predictable was the strident refusal to accept any of what Louise said by her debate opponent.
While this article, published on Bari’s SubStack column, is helpful, I also wonder whether it gets any traction in the broader media. The journals with wide circulation that influence our politicians and institutions are a very biased and one-sided take on what is right for our culture and, even, what the large majority believes (see abortion). That is driving a wedge into the heart of the United States, and this wedge is not being led by White Nationalists, mainly male. It is a fringe of progressive Americans who are intimidating the rest of the country with quackery, calling themselves scientific rationalists when they are clearly something different.
So grateful for this brave and wise woman's insights... may we endeavor to listen to the wise voices around us, especially our mom's...
I often joke that people hear that I’m a millennial that got married at 22 and they assume I’m a Mormon. I hooked up some as a freshman in college and had on again/off again boyfriends. But I was miserable. I hated wondering if someone only wanted to have sex with me or really liked me. I was actually friends with my husband throughout freshman year. I always enjoyed talking and just hanging out with him. When we started dating when I was a sophomore it just all clicked into place. I frequently get asked if I regret getting married young. There were times I wondered if I would be a different person. But I’m 28, have a mortgage, have a baby and have gotten to go to a few foreign countries with my best friend. I find my younger Millennial/GennZ talk about how they’d rather have my life than a bunch of “sexually liberated” Hook ups. For so long, showing a married 20 something was considered boring. I think the appetite now is for stability for younger women and that should be embraced.
Such a thoughtful and brave essay; how much we need to listen to wisdom's voice...
So thankful for this thoughtful and insightful perspective.
As a man, I'm all for women trying to be as promiscuous as men want them to be.
As a father I know it's BS. and certainly not what I want for my daughter.
It's unbelievable how stupid feminists are that thought this would actually make most women happy
Have always been intrigued by Camille Paglia. The video of her reacting to being informed of Jordan Peterson's travails upon refusing to use "preferred pronouns" despite a Toronto ordinance is a classic takedown of identity political authoritarianism. Check out:
https://youtu.be/pksHjddXp6k