"If Americans now have anything useful to tell Israelis, it would be: Don’t."
On the contrary, what we learned from our response to 9/11 is that we should *not* hold back for fear civilian casualties. Instead of bombing the hell out of every place in Afghanistan where terrorists might hide--all from the air, with no boots on the ground--and then exiting with a warning that THIS what happens countries that support terrorism against the U.S., instead we chose to invade and tried to convince Afghans that democracy was a better way.
It was deeply naïve, and completely ineffective. Afghanistan is just as much of an Islamist dystopia as it was before 9/11, only now they have high-grade military equipment that we abandoned for their use.
We didn't hold back during WWII, because we understood what was at stake--that Germany and Japan would not "play nice" in the future if we didn't pursue unconditional surrender. We dropped two atomic bombs on Japan because the cold calculus showed that far more lives would be lost on both sides if we chose a conventional ground invasion.
Ever since then, we have had the habit of holding back so as to maintain a reputation as the "good guys." But REAL good guys don't leave until the bad guys are crushed into complete impotence. Every cartoon-watching child could tell you that if the bad guy is allowed to get away, he WILL be back. And unlike in cartoons, many REAL innocent people will die if the bad guys aren't stopped utterly from killing again and again and again.
Your comment is grounded in the real world and like so much else in the real world, is sad but true. Packer’s entire column is typical pablum from The Atlantic that amounts to almost nothing more than don’t offend anyone.
It’s also misses a lesson that may have indirectly contributed to last weeks savagery. For me, the greatest mistake after 9/11 was acquiescing to security state demands that Americans subordinate our constitutional rights to the same geniuses that allowed it to happen in the first place. Did that submission help Israelis or AMERICANS who were butchered or taken hostage last week?
The real beneficiaries were the deep state puppeteers who have morphed their new powers into weaponry used to label, persecute and prosecute anyone opposing them as “domestic” terrorists and ultimately install an obedient, senile puppet as president of the United States.
The Biden/Obama administration abandoned policies and relationships put in place by Trump that had achieved relative calm in the Middle East. Only a fool would believe that the adverse consequences of that decision are over.
Could not agree more. The author warns “don’t imagine that overwhelming military force can solve an immensely complex historical and political problem.” There is nothing complex at all all about this “problem.” The mullahs in Iran intend to return to the glories of the 7th century when they dominated the Levant or, with modern weapons developed by their enemies”, the whole world.. They intend to do it the same way as before - by killing any and everybody that stands in their way, man, woman, child. They look upon our morality and “rules of engagement” as weaknesses to be exploited. They abide by the Koranic principle of “Taqiyya”, which, as a principle, makes it permissible to lie and deceive your opponent in order to conquer him. This utility of this strategy has certainly been amply demonstrated in all the Nobel Prize Treaties and “Peace” agreements. Until we fully embrace, as the Israelis have, that the goals of the Iranian regime is to destroy our individual freedom and replace it with Islamic rule, that there is is no tactic, including beheading babies that is out of bounds. This is not a “complex, historical problem.” This is reality. The Israelis understand, as we should, that there is only one thing that the Mullahs understand - power and the will to use it. There are only two times since 9/11 that Iran has paused: the first overwhelming assault on Baghdad and the vaporization of Soleimani. While we conduct our Neville Chamberlain-like policy of providing $billions and asking them to please, please stop, we are enabling their victory.
Not me but the namby-pamby, leftist fruitcakes who think that misgendering a trans woman who looks like a fullback from any given proball team is actual violence.
Only by creating a dispirited Palestinian civilian population that is tired of war and death will Israel come close to achieving peace. Hamas preaches death and glorifies martyrdom, so how does this author think that HIS type of peace will succeed? Israel should NOT hold back and especially should NOT heed the advice of this defeatism minded author.
I think the solution is to engage the parties that have created the problem of "Palestinian" people on the first place - Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt and other Arab nations. They initiated the refugee crisis and perpetuated it by not allowing displaced people to enter their societies. They need to take part in resolving it.
I'm afraid that you are correct here, and would add that Hamas is an existentially different enemy than Germany and Japan at war with the Allies were. I'm no military expert; but just bombing Gaza will not obliterate Hamas, or "send a message" that will convince them to drop it. Their goal is more important to them than life--any life.
Surely you’ve seen pictures from Japan’s Rape of Nanking, or read how one of the first stops on Japan’s invasion of Hong Kong was the hospital at Stanley Fort, where they bayoneted almost every patient and the staff. How about the atrocious carnage Germans committed in Jewish ghettos? Evil is evil, and it grows exponentially when vile kingdoms educate their youngest citizens that wanton, senseless murder is justified for the future of the country. The history of WWI/WWII is ugly, even petrifying. Feudal Japan and Nazi Germany abandoned their malicious quest for world domination only after they were bombed into submission. Even then, a hardened realist will tell you, as long as humanity exists, you’ll never fully eradicate evil.
How different are the crazed lunatics saluting and "heiling" at the Nuremburg rallies and the bloodthirsty fools parading in our own streets celebrating the barbarism of Hamas?
Point taken; there were atrocities beyond comprehension...but I believe the Axis end goal was political control; takeover; not the absolute destruction of entire populations (except the Jews of course). In other words, those atrocities were a tactic aimed at submission of the populace, not the end game.
I hear you. My prayer is Israel — unlike Hamas — doesn’t seek to annihilate every last Palestinian. Surely not everyone in Gaza ascribes to Hamas’s mission to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.
No; agreed; a large percentage of the Palestinian population is being victimized by Hamas. It is entirely likely that more of them have already perished than Israelis killed 10/7, with more to come. It is a dreadful situation. There are reports of Hamas leadership living in comfort in Qatar...the head of the snake needs to go!
You are absolutely correct. The fact is that more Gaza's have died at the hands of Hamas than by Israel. They use them as human shields. It's also true that over a third of the rockets launched at Israeli civilians fall short and land in Gaza.
Not everyone in Gaza. But most, unfortunately, are devoted to the most radical Islamist beliefs, which they have been taught from the cradle. They firmly believe that Jews are not humans and must be killed.
Hamas is an "essentially different enemy than Germany and Japan" only in they have succeeded in the impossible - making those barbaric pariah states look almost "humane" in comparison. Burning children alive. Can depravity get any lower?
When it was discovered that Polish migrants ambushed and killed German soldiers, the German Wehrmacht rounded up civilians, herded them into churches, locked the doors and set fire to the buildings on Hitler's order.
and how does it relate to the attack on Gaza? Are you comparing collateral damage (unintentional death of civilians used as Human shields by vicious humanoids) to intentional murder of civilians? There is no parallel here at all for anybody, but Hamas supporters.
I think we are all in agreement. And my use of the Nazis and Japanese lunatics was simply to point to a level of barbarism to which it was believed impossible to sink below. And, yet, Hamas managed to do so. Depraved beyond all human redemption.
You are exactly right. The mullahs could care less about Hamas or the citizens of Gaza. The only remedy is the replacement of the regime in Iran. The US has the capability to do that. What’s lacking is the will to do it.
First, I'm not suggesting that the US or Israel take over Iran. As far as successful replacement of a totalitarian regime, I think it depends on the form of government. It seems like the replacement of Communist rule in West Germany seems to have worked out pretty well. Ditto for Czechoslovakia and Nazi-run France to name just a couple The point is that democracy will always be superior to totalitarianism. Can you name a country where totalitarianism produced a positive outcome for its people?
If Iran is not "taken over," how is that regime change? It's decapitation, a la Libya and others; how's that working out? Germany had a more-or-less functioning WESTERN culture and unconditional surrender; Japan the unconditional surrender and an obedient culture that was co-opted. I search in vain for US-implemented regime change in the other European examples that you claim, which in any case are Western-cultured. You haven't identified any regime improvement (the given challenge) in any non-Western venue; your last question isn't merely moving the goalposts so much as attempting to change sports. (And of course I can't; never claimed otherwise.)
All valid points. I am in no way suggesting America take over Iran. We have some experience there and it is all bad. The Iranian people are an ancient culture. They are a very sophisticated people (they invented Chess). As the heroic demonstrations show, they absolutely detest the current 7th century thugs in charge. I am quite sure they can figure out how to rule themselves.
This isn’t particularly insightful but the Iraq war changed everything. Had we relentlessly focused on Afghanistan and not embroiled ourselves there I believe a different, happier outcome was possible.
Exactly. The populations of these Islamist countries have ZERO interest in the Enlightenment principles that have given Western nations representative government. German society already believed in those principles, and Japanese society quickly learned them.
My father-in-law served in Desert Storm, and he told us that Arab Muslims have such an essentially tribal society that the idea of democratic representation is completely foreign to their minds.
Attempting to bring these people forward into the Enlightenment is a fool's errand.
I’ve made this point several times on other threads. Yes, an aggressive response is appropriate here. That Hamas was elected by the population allows more latitude.
But our claim to moral superiority rests on not behaving like savages. Kill those who must be killed and minimize civilian deaths.
And if they are used as human shields, which they are, is Israel to say Kings X never mind.
I’d be more inclined to go along with you if we didn’t see women and children cheering and looking like rabid dogs after a massacre of Jews. Or women encouraging their children to hate with the heat of a thousand suns or sitting like matriarchal spiders whining about their refugee status after 70:years.
Be merciful in victory yes, but only after victory. The same can’t be said about the Arabs.
I agree that we should not have chosen to go to war with Iraq. But avoiding the Iraq debacle would not have changed anything about the outcome in Afghanistan.
Afghanistan is not known as "The Graveyard of Empires" for nothing. Putting boots on the ground there was a huge mistake. Putting boots on the ground in the foolish belief that we could turn Afghanistan into a modern republic was madness.
Agreed. No foreign power has been able to hold Afghanistan.
My point was that the rationale for Iraq was far shakier than Afghanistan and our international optics suffered. This in addition of operating two fronts simultaneously.
Iraq was a clusterfqk. We relied on lies told by an escaped Iraqi scientist. Ironically, the same lies that Iraqi scientists were telling Saddam--that they had created and were stockpiling WMDs. Hence his eagerness to go toe-to-toe with us.
But there was no proof that Iraq was supporting international terrorism. Certainly not at the level that other Muslim nations were.
How is your nostrum for Afghanistan any different from our failed 20 year exercise in "nation building" futility. The correct response in Afghanistan was our earlier, brilliant special operation with the Northern Alliance to oust the Taliban. Then, when the Taliban returned after treacherously murdering Massoud, we should have bombed their infrastructure and left them presiding over a smoldering ruin.
Kinda like letting criminals walk and somehow they will just make better choices because, gee, we understand your pain. Maybe we are ignoring the pain your crime inflicts, but hey, it makes us “feel” better and we can’t even see the goriness from up here in our privileged ivory towers.
As kramer said on seinfeld “yeah, yeah, yeah!”….has everybody gone mad and forgotten about the road runner and wile e. coyote?!! Lots to be learnt from cartoons!
I fully disagree with you and agree with the article's author, though his argument could use some more fleshing out. You have to ask yourself, why now? The seeming reason for the Hamas' attack coming now is that Israel has been making friends (peace deals, trade agreements and such) with other Arab nations and was on the cusp of an agreement with Saudi Arabia. The Palestinian cause was in danger of being forgotten by Arab countries that previously supported the cause (Morocco, UAE, Bahrain, Jordan and Egypt). What better way to turn those Arab countries back into enemies for Israel than to have massive Palestinian civilian casualties? Sometimes the PR battle, especially in this day and age, is the key to winning.
Interesting point you're making, Celia. I just want to say, though, that the bombing the hell out of Afghanistan and then never enter soldiers there would not have worked either - since half the Taliban and Al Qaeda who weren't killed in the initial weeks of that conflict ended up laughing at us in neighbouring Pakistan - which is where they emerged from ten years later to take over the country. Our inability to leverage Pakistan to give them up was our undoing.
Well, we could have always gone back for another bombing run in Afghanistan once the Taliban and Al Qaeda moved in again. Repeat as necessary.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but my impression is that Pakistan has nukes because India has nukes. Does Pakistan have the *capability* of dropping nukes on the U.S.?
Escalating to nukes because the U.S. is dropping conventional bombs on areas where the Taliban and Al Qaeda are taking shelter seems like a bad idea. If Pakistan nuked anyway, it's very likely that India would nuke them, even if no one else did.
Turning over criminals to the U.S. would be a lot safer path to not having bombs dropped on them. And the leaders of Pakistan don't seem to be quite as willing as the leaders of Iran to sacrifice their population.
There is more than one Taliban. There are at least two. An Afghan version and a Pakistani version. Pakistan has has widespread instances of Taliban terrorism in the last fifteen years - with their share of mass killings, assassinations, and attempts at such. They have a huge presence in the country, and tolerated by the Pakistani government because they have no choice otherwise. In short, Pakistan is a deeply unstable society. If those nukes were to get in the wrong hands all hell would break loose in that country. If you were to talk to any US Defense or State official off the record, they would say that that is their greatest worry in that region.
I am disappointed with this piece. “ Don’t poison your national unity, as Bush did ours, ” i seem to remember that very differently both pre and post 9/11. And it makes me question his ideologic bent particularly with pre and post 10/7 as regards to israel’s politics. He seems to respect joe biden more than Bibi. But what really sticks in my craw is that both obama and biden seemed to be supporting a policy that acted as if a strong Iran could/would bring stability and hence peace to the region. What he is really telling the israelis is that the US bailed on you once and they are likely to do so again so fall in line. And actually the israelis are much better than that, mr packer notwithstanding. Mr. Packer , israelis understand much more than you do apparently, the value of life. Don't pretend to school them.
You know, I’ve never read anything from the leftist Atlantic. It’s obvious they think they are elitist and they know more than anybody else. No common sense. If they were in charge we would be speaking Arabic. Just saying
Just sayin’ and just plain wrong. If you read The Atlantic you’d see the views are far far from leftist. But you don’t read it. So there’s no way you can know.
Even if The Atlantic does lean left is that a reason to not read it? But beyond that the left/right distinction seems sort of meaningless and not very useful if our aim is to understand what’s going on in the world and inform ourselves. I would be hard pressed to label the following article from The Atlantic: file:///var/mobile/Library/SMS/Attachments/80/00/5F99A65E-D2C2-40ED-AC5F-8F28CFBCBCD4/What%20Hamas%20Did%20to%20the%20Intersectional%20Left%20-%20The%20Atlantic.webarchive
I'm astonished that Bari published this piece. Bari warned against throat clearing immediately after the attack, but now she publishes this. Packer has no deep knowledge of the region, he's just a "staff writer at the Atlantic". There's nothing in this piece about how to kill or neutralize the Hamas leadership, which is the core of the problem. I could get my plumber to write something as insightful.
Perhaps in publications such as the Atlantic which continues to propagate the lies and calumnies that Packer regurgitates robotically:
"Don’t continue to ignore or inflame Palestinian grievances in the West Bank, even if they’re raised by people who celebrated Israeli deaths."
"Israel’s cruel treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories only helps that group’s cause."
"it’s impossible for Palestinians to accept a fate of permanent subordination."
"continued Israeli domination...."
So, in the end, Packer's piece is more of the same apologia for terrorists and lies about Israel. Which led to Hamas's barbaric attack in the first place.
Which is why we vehemently disagree. And I'll wager more people support my view than yours. At least those who are objective on history and current realities.
Sure, “let’s not kill civilians unnecessarily” sounds quite reasonable, but only if you are unaware of—or ignore—both the history and current actions of Israel. No modern country has done more than Israel has to try to avoid civilian casualties, all while Hamas has worked harder than any entity to increase them. Wagging a finger at them like this, given their history of restraint—which, not incidentally, has let Hamas regroup and strengthen multiple times—is beyond hubris.
Initially, some commentators were griping about how THF isn’t ‘free’ unless the opposition gets a voice. Which-saying this on day one was absolutely tone deaf. Anyway, this is it. Agree or not (w this author; I don’t) everyone should be happy now.
Bush made a lot mistakes as for poisoning our nation "Selected not Elected", "Not my President" and "Regime Change Starts at Home" were the mantras of the Democratic Party. This was when insurrection and declaring elections illegitimate was cool!
It's always the case that previous Republican presidents were 'respected' , but the latest one and the leading candidates are 'Nazis'. No, they were not respected by half the country. In 5 or so years the press will be telling us that Trump was 'respected'.
A large majority of Floridians strongly disagree with you...
First of all Trump was dangerous only to woke idealogues who despised him only because he penetrated the veil of their club, closed to all but themselves.
"How dare an outsider invade and disrupt our system?"
DeSantis is dangerous only to those who wish to undermine the freedoms of our constitution and convert America into a socialist state.
Wow. A small majority of Floridians might weakly disagree.
Trump is equally dangerous to friends and enemies alike, which is why the list of the former is shrinking by the day.
Desantis is equally disinterested in dissenting opinions and would prefer that people just trust him to make all the decisions. Works OK as a governor with a captive legislature, but not as a president.
Suffice it to say that anyone who disagrees with him will eventually be labeled a loser or worse. Or, if you really disagree with him, he might say “This is an act so egregious that, in times gone by, the punishment would have been death!”
Silly Chuck B. There is a vast gulf between peevishly "punishing" a person who displeased Trump and Biden's unleashing the power of the state on patriotic dissenters.
They are only respected at and after their state funerals. Trump will probably forego that and have himself cryogenically frozen to bless future generations, be entombed like Lenin, or shoot himself into outer space. (If the latter, many Democrats might contribute to a GoFundMe.)
I still laugh at the naïveté of those who thought presidential candidate Mitt Romney was the devil incarnate.
1. Machiavelli: “It is better to be feared than loved, if one cannot be both.” Israel will never be loved, certainly not universally.
2. There’s an excellent recent book on the Palestinian situation by Adi Schwartz and Einat Wilf, _The War of Return: How Western Indulgence of the Palestinian Dream Has Obstructed the Path to Peace_ that points out that the Palestinians will never achieve their “right of return” and that fostering this dream gives the Palestinians license to remain permanent refugees. This is a much better read than any Atlantic piece.
Dead Jews don't count. Only with Israel are there immediate calls for restraint, before the dead are even buried. Where is your condemnation of Egypt for sealing the border with Gaza, trapping civilians with no escape?
The people I hate the most are those who say, “I condemn. . .but.”
You say you condemn atrocities but you will get off the train should Israel not live up to your expectations for moral conduct during war. You were never on the train.
Whether it’s a lone jerk holding a 9 mm to a child’s head and daring a SWAT team to shoot or a cowardly terrorist organization hiding amongst a million men, women, and children daring Israel to bomb, one ugly truth remains. Someone’s going to die. In the latter scenario, that someone will be civilians. Why is this so hard for the namby pambies of the 21st Century to wrap their heads around?
Bush made so many mistakes: Homeland Security; greenlighting NSA, the FBI, and the CIA spying on their own citizens; cementing the notion that a government’s first and last responsibility is to keep every citizen safe. He also caved to Dems when they saw they could crush the opposition as our resolve grew wobbly. A lightning strike, coupled with a warning that there’s more where that came from, might have proven more effective against Afghanistan. Who knows? The war only became “endless” under the watch of succeeding presidents and ultimately ended in a shambles.
Israel, where will you be in 22 years? I hope your spine is steelier than ours. You need to survive.
Many people don’t actually understand what or who a Jew is. A Jew has a God-given life mission to be a “light unto the nations”. Every single Jewish child, from age three, secular or religious, knows the history of his people. The slavery in Egypt, the ten plagues, the splitting of the Red Sea, the forty years in the desert, Moses, Mount Sinai, the Ten Commandments, the Holy Land…The story is discussed at every Passover meal yearly. We know very clearly who we are and have the self-confidence that that knowledge brings. Zion, Israel, Jerusalem; the exile and the return; these themes are repeated over and over in our daily prayers and Torah readings. The writings go back more than three thousand years. We know our role in the world and also that God’s will will prevail.
I’ve been reminding many that what’s different of this tragedy is that it is an existential threat to Israelis and all Jews in the Diaspora. Never Again became Not Again!
And how about the biggest mistake -- western governments, including our own, allowing immigration of vast numbers of backward, tribal people into our nations, unassimilated, ignorant and simmering with resentment. And now we see the consequences - throngs of them in our major cities celebrating barbarism and lunacy and threatening our citizens. This sort of "diversity" is not our strength. It is a national suicide pact. People who celebrate the beheading and burning of babies have no place in our national life. We can start with cleansing the House of Omar, Tlaib and the rest of these fifth columnists.
But from what I could see, most of the those lunatic morally challenged progressives on university campuses shouting support for Hamas had white, homegrown faces. The rot starts within, and has been growing and festering for the last two or three generations, at least. I graduated from university in 1980 and it was there then - and everybody I knew espousing it came from a white suburb.
Not so in the NYC march of barbarians. The white suburban pukes on campuses are revolutionary wannabes. Pretending their on a set of Les Miz. They turn tail at the drop of a hat.
You don't think the throngs of 'backward, tribal, unassimilated, ignorant' (and we all know what they look like, right?) protesting in NY and in other Western cities wouldn't also turn tail? They know where their bread is buttered. They're either second gen immigrants or have just come off the boat. They ain't going back to the economic ruins they came from and have no intention to. They like it here or in the West just fine. After all, they're free to protest. Try that in Syria.
As for fifth columnists, logic would dictate that a real bona fide terrorist wouldn't be caught in any mob in the USA denouncing Israel, he'd be buried somewhere where an FBI listening device or camera wouldn't find him.
No where in this piece does it describe what determines a successful response. There is a cultural issue of not accepting the existence of a Jewish state in addition to the immediate problem of eliminating Hamas.
No acknowledgement that our post 9-11 war on Iraq and two decade nation building fiasco in both Iraq and Afghanistan was idiotic? A veiled claim that Israel is "cruel" to the "Palestinians" and that the situation in Gaza and the West Bank is somehow Israel's fault when the fault clearly lies with Hamas and Hezbollah? And most of all, no acknowledgement that the bestowing of vast power on our Intel apparatus has led to its overreach and politicization and the attendant destruction of our civil liberties? And then I noticed that this fool writes for the Atlantic. Quelle surprise. Bari, please stop wasting our time with what soft Leftists babble. We don't care.
The writer correctly notes that world opinion is a fickle beast, but then incorrectly gives optics precedence over Israel achieving safety and security for its citizens. Concern about optics and the pressure to bless peace talks and accords is what got Israel here.
Neither Israel nor Ukraine can wait on the UN, popular opinion, or social media influencers to save them. They are at war, and death will follow.
Of course, their situations are completely different. Zelensky has been masterfully making his enemy Putin look like a fool, while Netanyahu faces a pack of several dogs on (or off) a leash held by Iran. There are numerous other differences, but the primary goal is the same: defeat the enemy.
Gaza will probably be removed as a threat to Israel, regardless of the cost, and occupied for the foreseeable future, as Afghanistan would be if it were next to the US. The toll in human misery will be horrendous, but Israel must remove Hamas more effectively than the US “destroyed” the Taliban.
After that, Israel will not have the luxury of nation building and/ or leaving when they get tired of being there, optics be damned. Hamas is comprised of angry men who would give their lives to erase Israel, never to be convinced nor rehabilitated. Yet Israel will be vilified by the enlightened while the Chinese continue to incarcerate and reeducate countless Uyghurs who own no rockets and kill no Chinese babies. Waiting for the world to love you is a fool’s game, and Israel will do well to remember it.
Mr Packer would be better served wringing his hands over what happens after Israel kills the dogs and goes after their master, Iran. That battle might make the siege of Gaza seem insignificant.
This essay smacks of dare I say, Jew dislike. Not quite hatred but sidling up to it.
Yes yes this is horrible Israel but don’t be too harsh or angry. Be more accommodating like in the past. Be more like zelensky, now that’s a righteous war. Don’t be cruel to baby killers and grandma rapers.
Bari had said this backsliding would be coming . I was thinking weeks or months when she said it. But this is mere days. Maybe she printed it in the FP so we would see what it looks like.
Yes but this is what she said in her email this morning.
“But 9/11 should also serve as a cautionary tale for Israel in its moment of crisis, argues George Packer, a staff writer at The Atlantic. In a piece we’re republishing in The Free Press today, he writes that the comparison between 10/7 and 9/11 “might lead to unexpected places.” For more on how Israel might learn from America’s policy mistakes, scroll down to read his piece in full. “
George, You state a problem but no solution. You also evade the additional factors: Hamas will exploit and is exploiting civilians to create the images you fear; Global anti-semitism which only works against Jews and Israel, no matter what they/we do.
"If Americans now have anything useful to tell Israelis, it would be: Don’t."
On the contrary, what we learned from our response to 9/11 is that we should *not* hold back for fear civilian casualties. Instead of bombing the hell out of every place in Afghanistan where terrorists might hide--all from the air, with no boots on the ground--and then exiting with a warning that THIS what happens countries that support terrorism against the U.S., instead we chose to invade and tried to convince Afghans that democracy was a better way.
It was deeply naïve, and completely ineffective. Afghanistan is just as much of an Islamist dystopia as it was before 9/11, only now they have high-grade military equipment that we abandoned for their use.
We didn't hold back during WWII, because we understood what was at stake--that Germany and Japan would not "play nice" in the future if we didn't pursue unconditional surrender. We dropped two atomic bombs on Japan because the cold calculus showed that far more lives would be lost on both sides if we chose a conventional ground invasion.
Ever since then, we have had the habit of holding back so as to maintain a reputation as the "good guys." But REAL good guys don't leave until the bad guys are crushed into complete impotence. Every cartoon-watching child could tell you that if the bad guy is allowed to get away, he WILL be back. And unlike in cartoons, many REAL innocent people will die if the bad guys aren't stopped utterly from killing again and again and again.
Your comment is grounded in the real world and like so much else in the real world, is sad but true. Packer’s entire column is typical pablum from The Atlantic that amounts to almost nothing more than don’t offend anyone.
Packer’s entire column is typical pablum”
It’s also misses a lesson that may have indirectly contributed to last weeks savagery. For me, the greatest mistake after 9/11 was acquiescing to security state demands that Americans subordinate our constitutional rights to the same geniuses that allowed it to happen in the first place. Did that submission help Israelis or AMERICANS who were butchered or taken hostage last week?
The real beneficiaries were the deep state puppeteers who have morphed their new powers into weaponry used to label, persecute and prosecute anyone opposing them as “domestic” terrorists and ultimately install an obedient, senile puppet as president of the United States.
The Biden/Obama administration abandoned policies and relationships put in place by Trump that had achieved relative calm in the Middle East. Only a fool would believe that the adverse consequences of that decision are over.
Could not agree more. The author warns “don’t imagine that overwhelming military force can solve an immensely complex historical and political problem.” There is nothing complex at all all about this “problem.” The mullahs in Iran intend to return to the glories of the 7th century when they dominated the Levant or, with modern weapons developed by their enemies”, the whole world.. They intend to do it the same way as before - by killing any and everybody that stands in their way, man, woman, child. They look upon our morality and “rules of engagement” as weaknesses to be exploited. They abide by the Koranic principle of “Taqiyya”, which, as a principle, makes it permissible to lie and deceive your opponent in order to conquer him. This utility of this strategy has certainly been amply demonstrated in all the Nobel Prize Treaties and “Peace” agreements. Until we fully embrace, as the Israelis have, that the goals of the Iranian regime is to destroy our individual freedom and replace it with Islamic rule, that there is is no tactic, including beheading babies that is out of bounds. This is not a “complex, historical problem.” This is reality. The Israelis understand, as we should, that there is only one thing that the Mullahs understand - power and the will to use it. There are only two times since 9/11 that Iran has paused: the first overwhelming assault on Baghdad and the vaporization of Soleimani. While we conduct our Neville Chamberlain-like policy of providing $billions and asking them to please, please stop, we are enabling their victory.
Oh how the truth hurts!
Not me but the namby-pamby, leftist fruitcakes who think that misgendering a trans woman who looks like a fullback from any given proball team is actual violence.
Only by creating a dispirited Palestinian civilian population that is tired of war and death will Israel come close to achieving peace. Hamas preaches death and glorifies martyrdom, so how does this author think that HIS type of peace will succeed? Israel should NOT hold back and especially should NOT heed the advice of this defeatism minded author.
I think the solution is to engage the parties that have created the problem of "Palestinian" people on the first place - Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt and other Arab nations. They initiated the refugee crisis and perpetuated it by not allowing displaced people to enter their societies. They need to take part in resolving it.
But they will not. Period.
Amen. This is the truth but our elitist, self absorbed leadership can’t stomach truth so.....🫠
Fuck. My comment posted twice, and when I tried to delete one, both were erased.
I’m so glad some one else has this trouble. I usually only want to edit an error but see no path to do that.
Unfortunately the “Palestinian” people support these terror organizations and share the guilt, and the risk. Sherman’s March comes to mind
I will continue to post the website of an organization that provides media links to Palestinian and Arab/Islamist media information.
www.memri.org
The brainwashing is real, and it is ongoing.
Tragically, it also exists here in America. The Ivy League schools can't scream "Israel is responsible" loud enough. What a disgrace.
"war is cruelty. There is no sense in trying to reform it. The crueler it is the sooner it will be over."
W.T Sherman
Thank you Robert!
I'm afraid that you are correct here, and would add that Hamas is an existentially different enemy than Germany and Japan at war with the Allies were. I'm no military expert; but just bombing Gaza will not obliterate Hamas, or "send a message" that will convince them to drop it. Their goal is more important to them than life--any life.
Surely you’ve seen pictures from Japan’s Rape of Nanking, or read how one of the first stops on Japan’s invasion of Hong Kong was the hospital at Stanley Fort, where they bayoneted almost every patient and the staff. How about the atrocious carnage Germans committed in Jewish ghettos? Evil is evil, and it grows exponentially when vile kingdoms educate their youngest citizens that wanton, senseless murder is justified for the future of the country. The history of WWI/WWII is ugly, even petrifying. Feudal Japan and Nazi Germany abandoned their malicious quest for world domination only after they were bombed into submission. Even then, a hardened realist will tell you, as long as humanity exists, you’ll never fully eradicate evil.
How different are the crazed lunatics saluting and "heiling" at the Nuremburg rallies and the bloodthirsty fools parading in our own streets celebrating the barbarism of Hamas?
Point taken; there were atrocities beyond comprehension...but I believe the Axis end goal was political control; takeover; not the absolute destruction of entire populations (except the Jews of course). In other words, those atrocities were a tactic aimed at submission of the populace, not the end game.
I hear you. My prayer is Israel — unlike Hamas — doesn’t seek to annihilate every last Palestinian. Surely not everyone in Gaza ascribes to Hamas’s mission to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.
No; agreed; a large percentage of the Palestinian population is being victimized by Hamas. It is entirely likely that more of them have already perished than Israelis killed 10/7, with more to come. It is a dreadful situation. There are reports of Hamas leadership living in comfort in Qatar...the head of the snake needs to go!
The head of the snake is in Tehran.
You are absolutely correct. The fact is that more Gaza's have died at the hands of Hamas than by Israel. They use them as human shields. It's also true that over a third of the rockets launched at Israeli civilians fall short and land in Gaza.
Not everyone in Gaza. But most, unfortunately, are devoted to the most radical Islamist beliefs, which they have been taught from the cradle. They firmly believe that Jews are not humans and must be killed.
It's not just in Gaza. Have you seen text books for children in Egyptian schools?
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-761991
To quote a famous dissident, “The line between good and evil runs through the middle of every human heart.”
- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
I didn’t want to look up the spelling. Thanks for confirming I was thinking of the right person.
Hamas is an "essentially different enemy than Germany and Japan" only in they have succeeded in the impossible - making those barbaric pariah states look almost "humane" in comparison. Burning children alive. Can depravity get any lower?
When it was discovered that Polish migrants ambushed and killed German soldiers, the German Wehrmacht rounded up civilians, herded them into churches, locked the doors and set fire to the buildings on Hitler's order.
Evil is indeed evil
and how does it relate to the attack on Gaza? Are you comparing collateral damage (unintentional death of civilians used as Human shields by vicious humanoids) to intentional murder of civilians? There is no parallel here at all for anybody, but Hamas supporters.
My point is that Hitler instructed the same barbarism on enemy forces in WWII that Hamas has.
So did Japan.....read Fly Boys if you have the stomach, which discloses what Japan did to American POWs.
Collateral damage is a price of any war, but using civilians as human shields goes well beyond 'civilian casualties.'
Using civilians as human shields is not unintentional. These are pure war crimes.
I think we are all in agreement. And my use of the Nazis and Japanese lunatics was simply to point to a level of barbarism to which it was believed impossible to sink below. And, yet, Hamas managed to do so. Depraved beyond all human redemption.
You are exactly right. The mullahs could care less about Hamas or the citizens of Gaza. The only remedy is the replacement of the regime in Iran. The US has the capability to do that. What’s lacking is the will to do it.
Ah, the regime replacement by the US shibboleth. Riddle me this: When, since WWII, as ANY replacement regime been an improvement?
First, I'm not suggesting that the US or Israel take over Iran. As far as successful replacement of a totalitarian regime, I think it depends on the form of government. It seems like the replacement of Communist rule in West Germany seems to have worked out pretty well. Ditto for Czechoslovakia and Nazi-run France to name just a couple The point is that democracy will always be superior to totalitarianism. Can you name a country where totalitarianism produced a positive outcome for its people?
If Iran is not "taken over," how is that regime change? It's decapitation, a la Libya and others; how's that working out? Germany had a more-or-less functioning WESTERN culture and unconditional surrender; Japan the unconditional surrender and an obedient culture that was co-opted. I search in vain for US-implemented regime change in the other European examples that you claim, which in any case are Western-cultured. You haven't identified any regime improvement (the given challenge) in any non-Western venue; your last question isn't merely moving the goalposts so much as attempting to change sports. (And of course I can't; never claimed otherwise.)
All valid points. I am in no way suggesting America take over Iran. We have some experience there and it is all bad. The Iranian people are an ancient culture. They are a very sophisticated people (they invented Chess). As the heroic demonstrations show, they absolutely detest the current 7th century thugs in charge. I am quite sure they can figure out how to rule themselves.
US has a Democracy?
Oh,, please.
Well and powerfully stated, Celia. Tyrants do not back down until they are crushed.
This isn’t particularly insightful but the Iraq war changed everything. Had we relentlessly focused on Afghanistan and not embroiled ourselves there I believe a different, happier outcome was possible.
Actually what Celia said was correct. Bomb the hell out of Afghanistan to send the message with do it again it will be worse, then leave.
Same here. People mired in the seventh century cannot be made civilized without stark consequences
Exactly. The populations of these Islamist countries have ZERO interest in the Enlightenment principles that have given Western nations representative government. German society already believed in those principles, and Japanese society quickly learned them.
My father-in-law served in Desert Storm, and he told us that Arab Muslims have such an essentially tribal society that the idea of democratic representation is completely foreign to their minds.
Attempting to bring these people forward into the Enlightenment is a fool's errand.
I’ve made this point several times on other threads. Yes, an aggressive response is appropriate here. That Hamas was elected by the population allows more latitude.
But our claim to moral superiority rests on not behaving like savages. Kill those who must be killed and minimize civilian deaths.
And if they are used as human shields, which they are, is Israel to say Kings X never mind.
I’d be more inclined to go along with you if we didn’t see women and children cheering and looking like rabid dogs after a massacre of Jews. Or women encouraging their children to hate with the heat of a thousand suns or sitting like matriarchal spiders whining about their refugee status after 70:years.
Be merciful in victory yes, but only after victory. The same can’t be said about the Arabs.
I agree that we should not have chosen to go to war with Iraq. But avoiding the Iraq debacle would not have changed anything about the outcome in Afghanistan.
Afghanistan is not known as "The Graveyard of Empires" for nothing. Putting boots on the ground there was a huge mistake. Putting boots on the ground in the foolish belief that we could turn Afghanistan into a modern republic was madness.
Agreed. No foreign power has been able to hold Afghanistan.
My point was that the rationale for Iraq was far shakier than Afghanistan and our international optics suffered. This in addition of operating two fronts simultaneously.
Iraq was a clusterfqk. We relied on lies told by an escaped Iraqi scientist. Ironically, the same lies that Iraqi scientists were telling Saddam--that they had created and were stockpiling WMDs. Hence his eagerness to go toe-to-toe with us.
But there was no proof that Iraq was supporting international terrorism. Certainly not at the level that other Muslim nations were.
And attacking Iraq immensely benefited Iran.
How is your nostrum for Afghanistan any different from our failed 20 year exercise in "nation building" futility. The correct response in Afghanistan was our earlier, brilliant special operation with the Northern Alliance to oust the Taliban. Then, when the Taliban returned after treacherously murdering Massoud, we should have bombed their infrastructure and left them presiding over a smoldering ruin.
Kinda like letting criminals walk and somehow they will just make better choices because, gee, we understand your pain. Maybe we are ignoring the pain your crime inflicts, but hey, it makes us “feel” better and we can’t even see the goriness from up here in our privileged ivory towers.
As kramer said on seinfeld “yeah, yeah, yeah!”….has everybody gone mad and forgotten about the road runner and wile e. coyote?!! Lots to be learnt from cartoons!
How DOES the Coyote always survive those Acme explosions all the time? Not a ringing endorsement for Acme, I guess...
Well, he is only a cartoon character. In the 2D universe, explosions are never fatal.
Wise words of reality, Celia
I fully disagree with you and agree with the article's author, though his argument could use some more fleshing out. You have to ask yourself, why now? The seeming reason for the Hamas' attack coming now is that Israel has been making friends (peace deals, trade agreements and such) with other Arab nations and was on the cusp of an agreement with Saudi Arabia. The Palestinian cause was in danger of being forgotten by Arab countries that previously supported the cause (Morocco, UAE, Bahrain, Jordan and Egypt). What better way to turn those Arab countries back into enemies for Israel than to have massive Palestinian civilian casualties? Sometimes the PR battle, especially in this day and age, is the key to winning.
Interesting point you're making, Celia. I just want to say, though, that the bombing the hell out of Afghanistan and then never enter soldiers there would not have worked either - since half the Taliban and Al Qaeda who weren't killed in the initial weeks of that conflict ended up laughing at us in neighbouring Pakistan - which is where they emerged from ten years later to take over the country. Our inability to leverage Pakistan to give them up was our undoing.
Pakistan should have been the next example, then.
With nukes at their disposal? You sure?
Well, we could have always gone back for another bombing run in Afghanistan once the Taliban and Al Qaeda moved in again. Repeat as necessary.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but my impression is that Pakistan has nukes because India has nukes. Does Pakistan have the *capability* of dropping nukes on the U.S.?
Escalating to nukes because the U.S. is dropping conventional bombs on areas where the Taliban and Al Qaeda are taking shelter seems like a bad idea. If Pakistan nuked anyway, it's very likely that India would nuke them, even if no one else did.
Turning over criminals to the U.S. would be a lot safer path to not having bombs dropped on them. And the leaders of Pakistan don't seem to be quite as willing as the leaders of Iran to sacrifice their population.
So..
There is more than one Taliban. There are at least two. An Afghan version and a Pakistani version. Pakistan has has widespread instances of Taliban terrorism in the last fifteen years - with their share of mass killings, assassinations, and attempts at such. They have a huge presence in the country, and tolerated by the Pakistani government because they have no choice otherwise. In short, Pakistan is a deeply unstable society. If those nukes were to get in the wrong hands all hell would break loose in that country. If you were to talk to any US Defense or State official off the record, they would say that that is their greatest worry in that region.
Honestly, after 9/11, my thought was bomb the whole region back to the Stone Age. That will fix the problem.
It's not a long trip to the Stone Age for them.
💯
Hmmm....that's probably going to happen. Need to be careful they don't spend all their Holocaust/diaspora chips in one place.
Vile, even for you. But certainly no surprise.
The past week's events have allowed Compost to demonstrate that he is vile beyond all reclamation.
Yes, Cecilia...vile beyond reclamation....because I don't give Israel complete, moral carte blanche.
Yes, so vile and terrible.
No. Not vile. It is a legitimate/ international PR concern that needs to be managed.
Intelligent adults understand this. If Israel genocides the Palestinians, as many on this discussion board seem to want, fine. Go for it.
But after that - the ledger will be considered even. Not quantitatively, but qualitatively, which will be the driving force.
I am disappointed with this piece. “ Don’t poison your national unity, as Bush did ours, ” i seem to remember that very differently both pre and post 9/11. And it makes me question his ideologic bent particularly with pre and post 10/7 as regards to israel’s politics. He seems to respect joe biden more than Bibi. But what really sticks in my craw is that both obama and biden seemed to be supporting a policy that acted as if a strong Iran could/would bring stability and hence peace to the region. What he is really telling the israelis is that the US bailed on you once and they are likely to do so again so fall in line. And actually the israelis are much better than that, mr packer notwithstanding. Mr. Packer , israelis understand much more than you do apparently, the value of life. Don't pretend to school them.
Ideological bent? Packer’s writing for The Atlantic. That tells you everything you need to know.
For an Atlantic article, it is surprisingly moderate. I’m concerned about Mr Packers future there.
Damning with faint praise?
Not at all, just being facetious. I have a feeling his cancellation notice is being typed up right now.
You know, I’ve never read anything from the leftist Atlantic. It’s obvious they think they are elitist and they know more than anybody else. No common sense. If they were in charge we would be speaking Arabic. Just saying
Just sayin’ and just plain wrong. If you read The Atlantic you’d see the views are far far from leftist. But you don’t read it. So there’s no way you can know.
What I have read from the Atlantic does not convinced me. Maybe not “far far leftist” but certainly not far.
Even if The Atlantic does lean left is that a reason to not read it? But beyond that the left/right distinction seems sort of meaningless and not very useful if our aim is to understand what’s going on in the world and inform ourselves. I would be hard pressed to label the following article from The Atlantic: file:///var/mobile/Library/SMS/Attachments/80/00/5F99A65E-D2C2-40ED-AC5F-8F28CFBCBCD4/What%20Hamas%20Did%20to%20the%20Intersectional%20Left%20-%20The%20Atlantic.webarchive
Well posted!
I too remember a list of 122 items long, reasons to attack Iraq, but that list has been scrubbed from the internet.
I'm astonished that Bari published this piece. Bari warned against throat clearing immediately after the attack, but now she publishes this. Packer has no deep knowledge of the region, he's just a "staff writer at the Atlantic". There's nothing in this piece about how to kill or neutralize the Hamas leadership, which is the core of the problem. I could get my plumber to write something as insightful.
It appears Bari will publish views she is not fully on board with if they are well written, smart and argued effectively.
This is as it should be.
I agree with that approach. The problem is that this piece is neither smart nor argued effectively.
I think it would pass editorial muster at most publications.
Not that I’m 100% in agreement with the piece but “let’s not kill civilians unnecessarily” is hardly fringe opinion.
Perhaps in publications such as the Atlantic which continues to propagate the lies and calumnies that Packer regurgitates robotically:
"Don’t continue to ignore or inflame Palestinian grievances in the West Bank, even if they’re raised by people who celebrated Israeli deaths."
"Israel’s cruel treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories only helps that group’s cause."
"it’s impossible for Palestinians to accept a fate of permanent subordination."
"continued Israeli domination...."
So, in the end, Packer's piece is more of the same apologia for terrorists and lies about Israel. Which led to Hamas's barbaric attack in the first place.
Wrangling below:
P1 is valid subjective opinion
P2 I feel “cruel” is the inappropriate adjective but the point is certainly arguable
P3 to my mind is truthful
P4 is admittedly incorrect as applied to Gaza
None of the above to me would support your conclusion of apologia for terrorists.
Which is why we vehemently disagree. And I'll wager more people support my view than yours. At least those who are objective on history and current realities.
I have read that George Packer’s father was Jewish. This makes his platitudes about the situation even more contemptible.
Sure, “let’s not kill civilians unnecessarily” sounds quite reasonable, but only if you are unaware of—or ignore—both the history and current actions of Israel. No modern country has done more than Israel has to try to avoid civilian casualties, all while Hamas has worked harder than any entity to increase them. Wagging a finger at them like this, given their history of restraint—which, not incidentally, has let Hamas regroup and strengthen multiple times—is beyond hubris.
True enough. but this piece came before breakfast! The only thing worse? The nuanced opinions of Al Sharpton !
Saw Sharpton on messnbc when Bari was speaking to the idiots. He looked dyspeptic. Probably upset there was no grift in it for him.
I didn’t know there were any.
Packer's piece was none of the above.
Happy to wrangle over any specifics you object to Bruce. I can’t do much with “it just sucks”
Read below. Now wrangle away.
But that is not a description of this piece. Well written, smart, and argued effectively? No.
Initially, some commentators were griping about how THF isn’t ‘free’ unless the opposition gets a voice. Which-saying this on day one was absolutely tone deaf. Anyway, this is it. Agree or not (w this author; I don’t) everyone should be happy now.
Bush made a lot mistakes as for poisoning our nation "Selected not Elected", "Not my President" and "Regime Change Starts at Home" were the mantras of the Democratic Party. This was when insurrection and declaring elections illegitimate was cool!
It's always the case that previous Republican presidents were 'respected' , but the latest one and the leading candidates are 'Nazis'. No, they were not respected by half the country. In 5 or so years the press will be telling us that Trump was 'respected'.
we saw a version of this with desantis , he's trump but more dangerous!
A large majority of Floridians strongly disagree with you...
First of all Trump was dangerous only to woke idealogues who despised him only because he penetrated the veil of their club, closed to all but themselves.
"How dare an outsider invade and disrupt our system?"
DeSantis is dangerous only to those who wish to undermine the freedoms of our constitution and convert America into a socialist state.
Wow. A small majority of Floridians might weakly disagree.
Trump is equally dangerous to friends and enemies alike, which is why the list of the former is shrinking by the day.
Desantis is equally disinterested in dissenting opinions and would prefer that people just trust him to make all the decisions. Works OK as a governor with a captive legislature, but not as a president.
Neither are electable at this point.
'disinterested in dissenting opinions'?
I'm shocked.....shocked. After all, Pelosi, Biden, Schumer, etc. are always interested in Republican/opposing/dissenting opinions.
Here's a clue, junior, it's called politics.
In 1861 there were plenty of southern Democrats that were disinterested in Abraham Lincoln's dissenting opinion on slavery and secession.
A little history tells us that many presidents come to the White House from a state governor position. I wonder why.........
How is it that you think DeSantis is a Socialist?
He is a right wing facist.
You are wrong about DeSantis. Awesome governor!
Show me exactly where I said DeSantis is a socialist.
People like you freely throw insults around like Joe Biden spends our money.
Do you even know what a facist is? Look it up....it's a dictator. Stalin was a facist. So was Mussolini. And Hitler. And Mao. and countless others.
In spite of the left's destructive ways there are none nor have there ever been any in America, tho Democrats would like to change that operative.
Either take a permanent hike, miss Jenny, or came back with something constructive.
This is why I don't like comments. Unless you say who you are replying to the comment above me/you means I am replying to you.
I was NOT replying to you. I was replying to:234
I am sorry to make this mistake. I think substack needs to correct this.
Less dangerous, but equally likely to punish any dissenting opinion. Neither are team players.
Any examples of such "punishment?"
No, of course not.
In contrast, Biden unleashes his Stasi on the dissenters.
You again?
I don’t have time to list all the people who Trump has tried to punish for betrayal. Here is a handy guide:
https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-have-been-thrown-under-the-bus-in-the-Trump-administration
Suffice it to say that anyone who disagrees with him will eventually be labeled a loser or worse. Or, if you really disagree with him, he might say “This is an act so egregious that, in times gone by, the punishment would have been death!”
Silly Chuck B. There is a vast gulf between peevishly "punishing" a person who displeased Trump and Biden's unleashing the power of the state on patriotic dissenters.
They are only respected at and after their state funerals. Trump will probably forego that and have himself cryogenically frozen to bless future generations, be entombed like Lenin, or shoot himself into outer space. (If the latter, many Democrats might contribute to a GoFundMe.)
I still laugh at the naïveté of those who thought presidential candidate Mitt Romney was the devil incarnate.
Not half as naive as those who made him a presidential candidate.
Hamas must be destroyed, root and branch. There is NO negotiating with entities that will not recognize Israel’s right to exist.
Better get the seeds. Martyrdom pays, literally, in that part of the world.
Several thoughts:
1. Machiavelli: “It is better to be feared than loved, if one cannot be both.” Israel will never be loved, certainly not universally.
2. There’s an excellent recent book on the Palestinian situation by Adi Schwartz and Einat Wilf, _The War of Return: How Western Indulgence of the Palestinian Dream Has Obstructed the Path to Peace_ that points out that the Palestinians will never achieve their “right of return” and that fostering this dream gives the Palestinians license to remain permanent refugees. This is a much better read than any Atlantic piece.
Just bought this book and will read
I hope it’s something you enjoy. It was a bit repetitive, but I learned a lot from it.
I've been thinking a lot about Machiavelli this week.
Same, and John Donne as well.
Dead Jews don't count. Only with Israel are there immediate calls for restraint, before the dead are even buried. Where is your condemnation of Egypt for sealing the border with Gaza, trapping civilians with no escape?
The people I hate the most are those who say, “I condemn. . .but.”
You say you condemn atrocities but you will get off the train should Israel not live up to your expectations for moral conduct during war. You were never on the train.
More here:
https://open.substack.com/pub/arnoldkling/p/i-condemn-but
Whether it’s a lone jerk holding a 9 mm to a child’s head and daring a SWAT team to shoot or a cowardly terrorist organization hiding amongst a million men, women, and children daring Israel to bomb, one ugly truth remains. Someone’s going to die. In the latter scenario, that someone will be civilians. Why is this so hard for the namby pambies of the 21st Century to wrap their heads around?
Bush made so many mistakes: Homeland Security; greenlighting NSA, the FBI, and the CIA spying on their own citizens; cementing the notion that a government’s first and last responsibility is to keep every citizen safe. He also caved to Dems when they saw they could crush the opposition as our resolve grew wobbly. A lightning strike, coupled with a warning that there’s more where that came from, might have proven more effective against Afghanistan. Who knows? The war only became “endless” under the watch of succeeding presidents and ultimately ended in a shambles.
Israel, where will you be in 22 years? I hope your spine is steelier than ours. You need to survive.
I think your analysis of the real harm post 9/11 is spot on. I would add enrichment of the MIC.
Yup. All the industrial complexes, especially education & HHS. 9/11 put the administrative state on steroids.
Faith, don’t worry, Israel will survive.
Many people don’t actually understand what or who a Jew is. A Jew has a God-given life mission to be a “light unto the nations”. Every single Jewish child, from age three, secular or religious, knows the history of his people. The slavery in Egypt, the ten plagues, the splitting of the Red Sea, the forty years in the desert, Moses, Mount Sinai, the Ten Commandments, the Holy Land…The story is discussed at every Passover meal yearly. We know very clearly who we are and have the self-confidence that that knowledge brings. Zion, Israel, Jerusalem; the exile and the return; these themes are repeated over and over in our daily prayers and Torah readings. The writings go back more than three thousand years. We know our role in the world and also that God’s will will prevail.
I’ve been reminding many that what’s different of this tragedy is that it is an existential threat to Israelis and all Jews in the Diaspora. Never Again became Not Again!
And how about the biggest mistake -- western governments, including our own, allowing immigration of vast numbers of backward, tribal people into our nations, unassimilated, ignorant and simmering with resentment. And now we see the consequences - throngs of them in our major cities celebrating barbarism and lunacy and threatening our citizens. This sort of "diversity" is not our strength. It is a national suicide pact. People who celebrate the beheading and burning of babies have no place in our national life. We can start with cleansing the House of Omar, Tlaib and the rest of these fifth columnists.
Perhaps..
But from what I could see, most of the those lunatic morally challenged progressives on university campuses shouting support for Hamas had white, homegrown faces. The rot starts within, and has been growing and festering for the last two or three generations, at least. I graduated from university in 1980 and it was there then - and everybody I knew espousing it came from a white suburb.
Not so in the NYC march of barbarians. The white suburban pukes on campuses are revolutionary wannabes. Pretending their on a set of Les Miz. They turn tail at the drop of a hat.
You don't think the throngs of 'backward, tribal, unassimilated, ignorant' (and we all know what they look like, right?) protesting in NY and in other Western cities wouldn't also turn tail? They know where their bread is buttered. They're either second gen immigrants or have just come off the boat. They ain't going back to the economic ruins they came from and have no intention to. They like it here or in the West just fine. After all, they're free to protest. Try that in Syria.
As for fifth columnists, logic would dictate that a real bona fide terrorist wouldn't be caught in any mob in the USA denouncing Israel, he'd be buried somewhere where an FBI listening device or camera wouldn't find him.
No where in this piece does it describe what determines a successful response. There is a cultural issue of not accepting the existence of a Jewish state in addition to the immediate problem of eliminating Hamas.
No where is there described a successful response.... etc. FIFY
Huh?
No acknowledgement that our post 9-11 war on Iraq and two decade nation building fiasco in both Iraq and Afghanistan was idiotic? A veiled claim that Israel is "cruel" to the "Palestinians" and that the situation in Gaza and the West Bank is somehow Israel's fault when the fault clearly lies with Hamas and Hezbollah? And most of all, no acknowledgement that the bestowing of vast power on our Intel apparatus has led to its overreach and politicization and the attendant destruction of our civil liberties? And then I noticed that this fool writes for the Atlantic. Quelle surprise. Bari, please stop wasting our time with what soft Leftists babble. We don't care.
I would add infiltration to your intel apparatus list.
The writer correctly notes that world opinion is a fickle beast, but then incorrectly gives optics precedence over Israel achieving safety and security for its citizens. Concern about optics and the pressure to bless peace talks and accords is what got Israel here.
Neither Israel nor Ukraine can wait on the UN, popular opinion, or social media influencers to save them. They are at war, and death will follow.
Of course, their situations are completely different. Zelensky has been masterfully making his enemy Putin look like a fool, while Netanyahu faces a pack of several dogs on (or off) a leash held by Iran. There are numerous other differences, but the primary goal is the same: defeat the enemy.
Gaza will probably be removed as a threat to Israel, regardless of the cost, and occupied for the foreseeable future, as Afghanistan would be if it were next to the US. The toll in human misery will be horrendous, but Israel must remove Hamas more effectively than the US “destroyed” the Taliban.
After that, Israel will not have the luxury of nation building and/ or leaving when they get tired of being there, optics be damned. Hamas is comprised of angry men who would give their lives to erase Israel, never to be convinced nor rehabilitated. Yet Israel will be vilified by the enlightened while the Chinese continue to incarcerate and reeducate countless Uyghurs who own no rockets and kill no Chinese babies. Waiting for the world to love you is a fool’s game, and Israel will do well to remember it.
Mr Packer would be better served wringing his hands over what happens after Israel kills the dogs and goes after their master, Iran. That battle might make the siege of Gaza seem insignificant.
This essay smacks of dare I say, Jew dislike. Not quite hatred but sidling up to it.
Yes yes this is horrible Israel but don’t be too harsh or angry. Be more accommodating like in the past. Be more like zelensky, now that’s a righteous war. Don’t be cruel to baby killers and grandma rapers.
Surprised Bari reprinted this
Bari had said this backsliding would be coming . I was thinking weeks or months when she said it. But this is mere days. Maybe she printed it in the FP so we would see what it looks like.
Yes but this is what she said in her email this morning.
“But 9/11 should also serve as a cautionary tale for Israel in its moment of crisis, argues George Packer, a staff writer at The Atlantic. In a piece we’re republishing in The Free Press today, he writes that the comparison between 10/7 and 9/11 “might lead to unexpected places.” For more on how Israel might learn from America’s policy mistakes, scroll down to read his piece in full. “
This is way more complimentary than it deserves.
I have no interest in Zelensky’s input.
George, You state a problem but no solution. You also evade the additional factors: Hamas will exploit and is exploiting civilians to create the images you fear; Global anti-semitism which only works against Jews and Israel, no matter what they/we do.