Women’s health is so undervalued. Im so sorry you went through this for so long, and I’m hoping you have found relief after diagnosis and treatment. If men ever suffered from endometriosis, a cure would have been found decades ago without any hesitation about coverage from insurance.
Women’s health is so undervalued. Im so sorry you went through this for so long, and I’m hoping you have found relief after diagnosis and treatment. If men ever suffered from endometriosis, a cure would have been found decades ago without any hesitation about coverage from insurance.
75% of RN, NP, PA, and MDs are female! Its not true that "womens health is so undervalued". Women account for roughly 82% of NP, 95% of RN, and mid to low 70% for PA. Women Docs make up 54% of total MD.
Additionally, to tell women the medicine "undervalues" is a self fulfilling prophecy.
Your point? Are you a woman? If not then move along. If you are and haven’t experienced any issues with doctors not taking your health concerns or pain seriously, then you’re lucky but your experience is not the norm.
Why does a solution depend on men? The author points out that most OB/GYN specialists are women.
I would suggest that medical studies fail to include women because most people, including prospective subjects, are almost as leery of experimenting on women as they are about experimenting on children.
If men suffered from endometriosis, it would never have been researched, would never be present in any medical textbook, the men who had it would receive no treatment and would be laughed out of the ER if they came in asking to be treated for their mysterious pain, and anyone who claimed it was real would be excluded from polite society.
As a woman in my 70s, I’ve never felt that my health was undervalued.
Whether my doctor was male or female, and I have had the good fortune of having both male and female doctors who have really appreciated my health and helped me.
You’re very fortunate. That hasn’t been my experience over the years particularly with reproductive and menopausal health. My mother has been brushed off as well as my daughter. We should all be as lucky as you and I’m saying that sincerely.
The author's attempt at claiming "sexism" is self-beclowning. Her issue was not understood to be related to being female until it was diagnosed, which in her telling is when the "sexism" ended.
Meanwhile, she wraps herself in the cloak of "being female" when telling her story (instead of telling it honestly as a more general tale of doctors being skeptical of hard-to-diagnose symptoms) precisely because she understands that society is actually very sexist in women's favor, and so framing her story this way gets her more attention.
I don't get the sense the author claims sexism. Some commentators here have done so. But I don't see this some "gender wars" piece; simply telling her own story, and the specific issues she went through with this disease, which is easily misdiagnosed and only applies to women.
Wraps herself in the “cloak of being female “ are you joking? Let me explain this: every single month a woman with endometriosis suffers excruciating pain that can literally have you pass out on your front lawn from the pain. Every month. Do you believe if women had been writing medical journals they would have come up with the word “hysterectomy? Even that is patronizing. Like we are just so hysterical that we can’t stand a little pain. You have blood flowing through your rectum every month, no where no escape, building up with more blood every month, forming masses of endometrial tissue that pulsate with pain every month because the blood cannot flow out.
If that were true, wouldn’t there be a cure for prostate cancer? And the author specifically states that the majority of gynecologists are women. I also suffered from endometriosis for 30 years before I had surgery. There is no diagnostic tool other than surgery.
This is a nasty condition and I am glad the author received care as a young woman.
Similar to how birth control is free. Such hyperbolic statements undermine your argument. Endometriosis is awful. After surgery, it comes back unless you agree to medical menopause. But it is not easily diagnosable. It took my female GYN years before she determined surgery was appropriate. This is not a female v. Male issue.
But the little pink pill is not. And birth control has only been free since Obama. Before that we all paid for it monthly. I happen to disagree with you, it absolutely is a gender issue, but just as I’m sure you’re not changing my mind, I don’t think I will change yours.
I dunno, Kevin. I’ve read a lot about medical history. I give a lot of credit and gratitude to the men of the Victorian era and early 20th century for their truly world-changing discoveries...but the field was ruled by and exclusive to men. Since most of us have some degree of gender bias, it is not illogical to conclude that it had its effects on these men as well. Clinicians aren’t always as clinical as they should be. It’s not even confined to the field of gynecology; studies have indicated that heart disease is often missed or misdiagnosed in women because they present with atypical symptoms vis-à-vis the guidelines--which were created based on presentation in men. Thus it’s not wildly implausible to think that if women had had a larger role in the development of the modern medical model, women’s health issues might not have so often been diagnosed and dismissed as hysteria.
I initially agreed with your premise that women are more likely to go to the doctor when something is wrong, but reassessed. Anecdotally, I have to be dragged kicking and screaming to the doctor’s office. My husband OTOH is super diligent about check-ups and is much more likely to see his doctor for a simple complaint. And generally, I would think that young moms, who are harried with jobs and child care and ferrying kids to after-school lessons and practices, may be less likely to go to the doctor simply due to lack of time.
I am not dismissive of anecdotes but in this case I think your situation is non-standard.
I’m pretty sure that, for evolutionary reasons, women are less sensitive to pain, which points in the direction of your argument. Also, men certainly get injured more but that’s not really relevant. It makes sense to me that women on average are more cautious and conscientious about health issues but maybe I’m wrong there. But there’s certainly plenty of money and prestige available in the women’s health sphere. Also there’s the thing about how companies charge more for women’s stuff which is an incentive maybe?
But I agree that women should focus more on cooking and cleaning instead of coming up with schemes where they get to meet handsome doctors.
😂😂🙏🙏
(sorry once I get going with the misogyny jokes it’s hard to stop)
All excellent points, including the desire to meet handsome doctors. 😉 I haven’t seen any studies on whether women are more likely to visit the doctor’s office than men, but now I’m intrigued.
(And I know we are atypical, as evidenced by the day that I was out in the garage, drinking beer and smoking cigarettes with the plumber, while the hubs was in the kitchen rolling out dough for homemade ravioli. 🤣)
I would maybe agree with you if there wasn’t a substantial rewards system in place that handsomely compensates medical advances regardless of the gender you are solving the problem for. And I believe women are more likely to seek medical attention (because guys are stubborn and irresponsible and stuff) so you actually probably get rewarded more for addressing/solving women’s medical issues, both financially and in terms of prestige.
I think a lot about our medical model. It’s so advanced and yet so broken. I don’t think socialized medicine is necessarily the answer, but the more advanced the technology becomes, the more expensive the care.
I know a doctor who has MS but manages it with lifestyle and is symptom-free. She lectures in medical schools about the importance of educating patients to exercise choice to avoid preventable diseases. We need a lot more of that, in my humble lay person’s opinion.
Part of the trouble here is that if a doctor tells a patient to live a healthy lifestyle and does not order a bunch of expensive tests or prescribe a controlled substance, many patients will complain that they are being ignored.
She manages it with a whole-food plant-based diet, good sleep hygiene and exercise. Look up Saray Stancic. She’s not running her wellness practice anymore, but her story is out there. She also made a documentary called Code Blue about the need to address wellness and disease prevention in medical education.
"whole-food plant-based diet, good sleep hygiene and exercise. "
Agree with everything here, except for plant-based. A lot of "plant-based" foods are full of artificial chemicals, like all the fake meats out there. I would argue that a whole-food, natural diet which includes grass-fed and pasture-raised meats/eggs is better than plant-based.
Which is why I specified "whole food plant-based." And this person who was crippled with MS, to the point of barely being able to walk unassisted and who now runs marathons, would strongly disagree with your opinion about the necessity of animal-based products. She is literal living proof that it works.
Isn't it the case that MS is a tricky illness whose course is often unpredictable, making it difficult to assign blame or credit for any given worsening or lessening of symptoms? So if your doctor acquaintance's "whole food plant-based" diet seems to help her, maybe it's because it actually does, or maybe it's just a coincidence. But it sounds like a stretch to claim that "She is literal living proof that it works". It would be interesting to see some studies in large populations that show the connection, if any, between diet and MS (and between diet and other illnesses as well).
Joe Biden has healed our nation’s soul and united our allies and he has cured most diseases and he has empathy and he returned the classified documents and is cooperating unlike Trump.
I disagree. It’s not because of gender bias. As Abigail points, 85% of gynaecologists are female. Women have more reproductive issues and illnesses than men. This makes diagnosis more difficult.
It's the system and the insurers. Doctors won't perform what insurers won't reimburse them for. So even if 85% of OBGYNs are women, who makes the decisions at the insurer level on what treatments will be paid for?
That’s just not true Terence. 85% of gynaecologists are not women and pharmaceutical companies did not deem women important enough to use them for research. The only thing that works is to be your own advocate. Much easier to do in Canada because of our healthcare system, which allows us to see multiple doctors. Still, in the end women have to campaign on behalf of ourselves to get concrete answers
Your disagreeing doesn't make it untrue. Most pharmaceutical tests are still only done on men as default. The drugs are then released to the market as safe without ever being tested on women.
And don't even get me started on the massive gaslighting when women reported the Covid vaccine was impacting their periods. The Science (TM) told them the were imagining things. Move along.
> Most pharmaceutical tests are still only done on men as default. The drugs are then released to the market as safe without ever being tested on women.
Your links are to the FDA guidelines. They're not evidence the pharmaceutical companies and medical industry are actually following them. And after everything we've been reading here, you want me to believe everything the FDA says???? Seriously???
If you have any sources to share, please do so -- if there are still studies being done on pharmaceuticals with such extremely biased test groups, that's a massive cause for concern.
The propaganda goal of having a COVID vaccine that objectively neither prevented infection or reduced the frequency of infection was more important than the truth.
That does not apply to endometriosis. Sounds like a lot of incompetence, in this case.
Medical incompetence should not be underrated. I visited several urologists about having a 25yo vasectomy reversed. Several told me that extracting viable sperm without reversing the whole thing was impossible. Then I saw a competent specialist (a woman) who promptly did what was deemed impossible by a bunch of men.
Also consider that the art of medicine, being able to listen to a patient, take the time to ask the right questions to elicit a proper history, then perform an adequate, directed physical examination, and put all that data together to formulate a differential diagnosis, has all but disappeared from medical education. Nowadays if a disease does not reveal itself via blood tests, CT or MRI scan, the diagnosis may well be missed.
Dr. Martin, thank you for your comment. I am forwarding the article to a friend who is currently beginning his second year in medical school and intends to focus on family medicine with an interest in serving in more rural areas. He has already discovered the value of “listening” as an essential component of building trust between physician and patient where this trust is absolutely required in order to elicit from the patient a full and accurate understanding of not only their physical state but the environment in which they are living and in which any plan for “healing” must take place. I personally want to support him in his efforts to develop his appreciation for and perseverance in developing a similar skill along with solid medical knowledge and experience. Your words of wisdom reinforce this.
I had a good female neurology resident. Her organization quit taking my insurance, so I got an experienced male neurologist, who kept me on steroids too long, resulting in neuropathy in both legs that adversely affected my gait. I know I can't generalize from this experience, but I certainly would never hesitate to see a woman physician.
True that. I saw a female NP in the instacare for symptoms of a UTI (blood, burning, etc). She had all my history with cancer treatment. Tests came back negative and she legit sighed like I was making shit up. Told me that possibly I didn’t know what a UTI felt like (I do!). Went to my male radiologist the next day for a follow up and he immediately realized I was probably having inflammation from my cancer treatment and expressed his frustration that she hadn’t prescribed me the pain meds for UTI since they would still help. He prescribed them and told me to just let him know if I needed more. Sure enough, symptoms ended when treatment ended. Some medical professionals are really good at thinking outside the box, some seem very intent on moving bodies through their schedules and if your tests are negative their brains shut down.
The NPs I work with are great & always ask us docs for help w/ anything complicated (outside of pt's earshot).
BUT: There is the right time/place for NPs. NPs have far less knowledge/experience (500 hrs clinical training vs >20,000). This often leads to patient deaths.
If you have a straightforward medical problem, then by all means, NP is fine. However, if you have an emergency, in the ER, request a physician in the ED. If you have something somewhat complicated, see a physician.
If you have something very complicated, do not see a private practice doc or NP. You need to go to an Academic Medical Center with a teaching program (residency or fellowship). They will spend a lot of time with you, they are not financially incentivized at all & they will get to the bottom of what is going on. They will figure it out & they will help you.
Yep, learned my lesson there. I have other NPs and PAs that I love but they only work during the weeks so any weekend need is always a toss up. I agree that an academic medical center is the best, that is where are my cancer drs are and my oncologist did more to research my possible treatment than the MD Anderson dr I saw. But that is probably due to ego associated with working at a top medical center than anything else 🤷♀️.
I have high respect for medical profession and doctors ~ I come from two generations of doctors, my grandfather and both my parents were doctors. Granted they were “old type” doctors with different ethics. I could never imagine my mother saying “ it is all in your head” to a patient. She was an excellent diagnostician, and people seeked her advice when nobody else had an answer. She could really think “out of the box” and never relied as much on tests as they do now, but on her knowledge and research.
I don’t think male doctors are prejudiced. I hope not. However, this is what happened to me a few years go. Come to your own conclusion. I almost never have headaches. Until one day my head was throbbing, and a sharp pain in the side of my head returned every 30 seconds. I went to an urgent care. Two very thoughtful and attentive doctors talked to me and prescribed a strong painkiller. It didn’t do a thing. The next day I called my family doctor, and she recommended I go to an ER immediately. I went to a hospital a few blocks from me. I live in NYC, and it is a good teaching hospital. A very respectably-looking male attending doctor in his 50s with a flock of medical students around him told me that he did not believe me I had a severe headache because I looked good and because my pupils looked normal. I could not believe it. He also pointed to the medication they had given me in the urgent care and said I was lying that I had never had headache since I had the painkiller. When I showed him the date on the bottle, which was the day before, he shut up but did not apologize. I am sure he wanted to catch me in a lie. They gave me MRI, which did not show any abnormalities. Because I insisted I continued to have pain, they finally gave me an IV, and the pain went completely away. When my family doctor called in the evening to check on me, she said she thought I was having a stroke. I don’t know what this episode was, as I am sure ER doctors see all kind of walk-ins. But when I look back, I think “you look good and cannot have that much pain” was a chauvinistic remark and still feel insulted by it.
There are physiological S/S of pain. Tachycardia, Hypertension, vomiting and when you ask the pt what is there pain level they tell its a 10/10 while the text on their phone. So looking at a pt's behavior can help confirm pain or not.
Of course. I am not an idiot. Taking vitals is important as is asking simple questions. But they do not always paint the whole picture. Empathy and an ability to listen to the patient may help when the situation is not as straightforward as in a medical textbook. This is used to be at the heart of the medical profession. And that’s the whole point of this discussion. Do you think telling a patient you look good and your pupils are not enlarged so I do not believe you experience any pain is appropriate? And in front of a group of students. That’s what they will learn.
For medical malpractice (or negligence) one has to satisfy 3 conditions:
1) there has to be an injury or bad outcome
2) the 'proximate cause' of such injury has to be something the practitioner did (or failed to do)
3) it must be proven that the practitioner deviated from the standard of care, defined as what a similar practitioner would do in the same circumstance and which is demonstrated to be the "standard of care" by commonly accepted practice or - even better - by consensus guidelines for managing that particular condition set by the standard-setting organization for that medical specialty.
In the above case as told by Just an observer, these definitions were not met, ergo no "appalling medical malpractice." Just because someone was not treated empathetically, or the interaction felt rude or disrespectful or the patient felt their medical symptom(s) were not taken seriously, does not constitute malpractice.
Some of those responses don't even sound like they were generated by a medical school educated mind. I have had both good and bad experiences with both make and female doctors. There likely are some sex differences, but those have not been what made the salient difference in my personal experience.
I don't really blame the practitioners overall, but rather the system. That said, bias against women does exist. I've had women doctors apologize for not being able to figure out what was going with me, but they don't blame me for it.
My experience with male doctors is totally different in that they blame the patient rather than admit ignorance.
Male doc #1: Said my abdominal pain was depression.
Male doc #2: Said my bladder pain was caused by "fear of pregnancy."
Male doc #3: Said I wouldn't be able tell the difference between between gynecologic pain and bladder pain.
Male doc #4: I had a two week long severe sore throat and illness two years ago.
I suspected I had mono. Doc prescribed antibiotics and refused to test for mono after I requested it. Went to another male PA, he tried to insist I had strep despite negative swabs, but agreed to test for mono after I begged for it. Turns out I was right and had mono and got a proper prescription to help.
My wife has been through some weird medical things over the past few years (early 30s). We’ve also had 2 kids in that time, so we’ve been to a lot of doctors m, PAs, and PTs across several different disciplines. The only negative experiences have been with an ER doc (well, and the impatient a-hole that gave her a misplaced epidural in June, nearly killing her and our daughter, but that’s a different story).
I suspect that some of the issues with unsympathetic drs is where they went to school, but I mostly think it’s an ER issue. Emergency medicine is a joke (though there are good practitioners), and a lot of the reason why is that many family practices won’t see anyone when they actually have problems. Thus the ER doc that is at the end of a 24 or 48 hour shift isn’t in the mood to actually do any work. It’s just a bad setup.
I’ve found DOs to be way better listeners than MDs too. Also, where we live, the corporate, for profit hospital is awful. We are lucky to be with the smaller, non-profit hospital on our insurance, and they are way better, actually wanting to help.
Anyway, long post to say that the medical system sucks, and it doesn’t have to.
I'm a female physician and I work in a practice with both male & female doctors. Our styles are totally different. I would say that most women doctors are better listeners & spend more time listening to the patient. Studies back this up. We are more likely to admit if we are wrong & not ashamed to admit we don't know everything. I'm not bashing male doctors at all and they are excellent, skilled, knowledgable and great doctors. The style is just different.
I should also mention that the male doctors I work with are kind, not at all sexist, and do their best to be understanding of women's needs. They offered me great support during my pregnancies, maternity leaves, breastfeeding and pumping, etc.
Women doctors are better listeners and are more concerned with fixing the patient than treating them. I am a senior man so it’s not coming from any bias against men.
You’re being kind saying it’s style differences. One can be taught to listen and ask questions better in order to do their job. And can learn not to blame a patient. Thank you for lending to the convo, truly. May you’re great style rub off on your peers!
I had an ob/gyn tell me during a high risk pregnancy that he “couldn’t treat a problem that exists only in my head”. The very next day, I went to the ER and was admitted for 7 days of IV antibiotics. He never apologized.
Almost all of my current doctors are female. Younger male doctors (Gen X e.g.) are much less arrogant, in my opinion, than the older ones were.
Let's take this as being true. Let's say it's an awful experience. Let's say it happens with some regularity.
But let's also take into account all the people who get antibiotics for infections they don't have. Let's consider the people who got opioids for pain that they didn't need and then went on to become addicted and maybe die. Let's consider that American healthcare is the most expensive in the world, in no small part because of all the unnecessary tests and treatments that we do.
Even giving full weight to the ugly cases where patients' concerns are incorrectly dismissed, America has more of a problem with too much medicine than too little.
This will sound old-fashioned, but listen: women's bodies -- at least the reproductive part -- are perceived as more complicated (they are) and mysterious (they shouldn't be) than the male counterpart.
Then again, look at how far beyond usual doctor training is (still) on nutrition, diet, weight, and how it's all related to metabolism, diabetes, and inflammation. Only in the last few years or so have I seen any conventionally trained medical types start to really wake up to it. COVID certainly played a role -- a friend whose sister is a nurse in NYC said the first year of COVID in the ER was, "really old people" and "really big people." No healthy 30 or 50-year-olds. Focused work on the vulnerable was hysterically (sorry) rejected for two+ years.
"a friend whose sister is a nurse in NYC said the first year of COVID in the ER was, "really old people" and "really big people." No healthy 30 or 50-year-olds. "
You're right! And that's how I knew, right away, that it was a lab leak. When Fauci & company were censoring the lab leak theory, saying it was a natural virus, I knew that they were lying to the public. I knew it was a man-made virus.
Because COVID overwhelmingly targets the elderly & the obese. No natural virus does that. There is no other virus that targets obese people. When I saw that, I knew this was un-natural.
True. I'm not a virologist or biologist. But natural viruses have a variability and crapshoot nature in their impact. Artificial viruses like COVID have been engineered to target *one* thing; in this case, human lung cell receptors. The effect is greatly enhanced in the presence of chronic inflammation. Certainly the metabolic-obesity-diabetes complex fits that. I believe the lungs of older folks do as well, but I'm not sure.
One another striking thing I remember from COVID was the lower importance of respiratory function and the greater importance of the inflammation vis-a-vis the kidneys. Many who had respiratory crises with COVID actually ended up dying from kidney failure because of the intense immune/inflammatory response. My friend's sister also noticed that over the months in 2020: they didn't need respirators so much as dialysis machines -- another indicator of the artificial nature of SARS-CoV-2.
I’ve had only male doctor I can remember who listened to me and was a true partner in my health care. In my experience, most other male doctors I’ve seen have been dismissive and downright condescending. So yeah, I too now see exclusively female doctors.
Even female doctors have sometimes had their souls sucked out by medical school. Thinking in particular of the female doctor who didn't refer me to a rheumatologist for my symptoms (ended up being fibromyalgia) until AFTER I had cussed at her nurse on the phone for offering me pain pills (at the doctor's direction) instead of some path to diagnosis.
I have found that Nurse Practitioners are usually far better than the doctors they practice under. Most of them are female, which helps.
The NPs I work with are great & always ask us docs for help w/ anything complicated (outside of pt's earshot).
BUT: There is the right time/place for NPs. NPs have far less knowledge/experience (500 hrs clinical training vs >20,000). This often leads to patient deaths.
If you have a straightforward medical problem, then by all means, NP is fine. However, if you have an emergency, in the ER, request a physician in the ED. If you have something somewhat complicated, see a physician.
If you have something very complicated, do not see a private practice doc or NP. You need to go to an Academic Medical Center with a teaching program (residency or fellowship). They will spend a lot of time with you, they are not financially incentivized at all & they will get to the bottom of what is going on. They will figure it out & they will help you.
Well NP's were RN's first and as an RN you are trained to be pt advocate. Additionally, I spent 5 years as a bedside RN in an ER. That was very valuable expertness. You are right than in an ER NP do booboos. Suturing, I&D... time consuming procedures and the Docs take care of the sick patients.
I do palliative care now for home bound pts, TBI, CVA, hypoxic events some are very complex and I have referred patients out to the "teaching hospitals" and to be honest they are not all that good.
I agree that all medical levels are need but to say go to these teaching hospitals and they will fix you is disingenuous at best.
That is key, because too many doctors do NOT listen. For whatever reason--training, arrogance, attitude--doctors seem less interested in viewing patients as people rather than as problems to be solved.
When will medical school teach that a dismissal of a patient because standard tests can't diagnose opens a new universe of possibilities to explore? It seems this learned in practice not school.
"Dismisal" of a patient is not an appropriate outcome.
But it is important to realize that most physicians regularly see lots of patients who say or think that they have some serious physical illness that they do not actually have.
A responsible physician has to consider non-obvious medical diagnoses, but psychosomatic illness, hypochondria, malingering and factitious disorders, and plain old idiopathic illness (medical speak for we don't know what's going on) are always on the list.
No, you've got that backwards. You're the one making the assertion (about pervasive gender bias) and I'm employing good old Hitchens' Razor: that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
I don't need to be an expert in anything or provide any support for anything. I'm just calling BS. You're welcome to try to convince any readers of your rather extreme position using appropriately strong evidence, if you've got any.
Due to the ACA (Obamacare). In order for Obamacare to pass Congress, Obama had to get Congress to sign off. Therefore, lobbyists who pay congress had to sign off. Lobbyists who work for Big Pharma, Big Insurance & Big Hospital Chains.
Obamacare caused many bad things. 1) Much increased paperwork, bureaucracy, excessive clicking on computers that wastes time, less time spent with patients & more time spent on endless clicking 2) Hiring lots of administrators to do all this paperwork which increases health care costs 3) Private practices are forced to sell to Big Hospital Chain monopolies which increases costs, forces docs to see more patients in less time 4) Patient satisfaction scoring, which increases patient morbidity & mortality & opioid crisis
I have found that female doctors relate to women’s issues especially gynecological ones very differently than male doctors. Particularly when first making a diagnosis. Specialists are a whole different story but if you need to have a referral, you have to get past that first hurdle.
Medicine is not an art. You just need to follow the guidance produced by the Supreme Federal Democracy Government or you will have your license taken away. Trust the science!!!
Not the way it was expressed. This was a heartfelt first person report by a woman barely out of her teens. Comments should address her story and concerns. Somethings are too important to be simplified to partisanship. Otherwise I enjoy your comments.
KD? did not in any way diminish the young woman. He just provided insight into the why and how. Something she herself pondered when she said it is more than just patriarchy.
The Democrat Party is running towards communism as fast as it can. They embrace Bernie Sanders, a hard core communist. Instead of castigating him they made him a senate committee chairman.
AOC and her squad are communists. They belong to the DSA. The DSA is a lie. There never has and never will be a democratic socialist government. It is a communist front.
You'll have to form your own judgment, but my interactions with LP suggest he's a troll who has very little interest in whatever issue is at hand. He's simply here to make a public nuisance of himself.
Well, let's see. Ever since he was elected to the Senate and caucused with the Democrats. The Dems/Socs made him the chairman of the Senate Budget Committee. I believe that qualifies as embracing.
I cannot understand how anyone can be a communist. The Communists slaughter more people in the last century than the NAZIs did. This slaughter was not war related. It was the murder of their own citizens. Stalin would send out orders to his commissars to "Kill 5,00 enemies of the state." and they would round up people at random and execute them.
In the last two years, the medical care was extremely politicized. The treatment options for COVID were prescribed by the government, and those who did not follow, lost licenses and were ostracized. These is a connection, unfortunately. I do see a reason for his sarcasm.
‘Trust the science’ is obviously sarcasm. It’s also not the point Kevin was making. To me, on many fronts the government is stating what accepted science is and trying to silence, punish or marginalize dissent. To suggest this may be true in women’s health is a concern with some merit and not sarcasm.
I’m fairly new here. I sense Kevin is a provocateur. On this comment I’m in agreement with his sentiments.
Further, if we’re going to dismiss comments with sarcasm, right or wrong, I see that as code for ‘Mickel your input is not wanted here’.
I hope that if there are women in your life who you care about and are suffering from this awful condition, that you won’t slip and call them Karen by mistake (unless of course that’s their name).
I found it an appropriate response to a dozen or more missed diagnoses of the nuclear-level pain she was experiencing. Why do you think the story woke nonsense?
Agree. The men above are way off base here. And, even ignorant. Women are very often misdiagnosed and dismissed as emotional about health issues. It’s a statistical fact in the overall misdiagnosis of 40000-80000 people a year.
“Women are more likely to wait longer for a health diagnosis and to be told it’s ‘all in their heads’. That can be lethal: diagnostic errors cause 40,000-80,000 deaths in the US alone.”
Heart attack is the number one killer of women but often dismissed at the crucial beginning stages of heart disease because of psychology and emotion and the intricacies of women’s bodies (as the child bearers of all humanity) in those diagnoses.
As a man, I probably shouldn't weigh in, but ... A large part of the problem in diagnosing women's heart attacks is that the symptoms are different between the sexes. A similar situation exists in men's breast cancers.
And while it is well-established that there HAS been gender bias, that is gradually shifting/changing as more and more women are becoming doctors. When you consider that our institutions of higher education are 60/40 women to men, and the rate of older doctors (mostly men) leaving the profession is spiking, we will have a preponderance of female doctors in the not-too-distant future. Yes, there will still be some male doctor/female patient bias but now we'll also have significant female doctor/male patient bias to "balance" it.
Let's face it - doctors are human. Like all people, some good, some bad; some caring and some just in it for the money. As best I can tell, neither sex has a monopoly on either type.
Of course you should weigh in, and of course, we do agree, but the reality of the now- and of the past- is that it is clear that many women face this issue, and it is life threatening and life altering, that it shouldn't have taken this woman that long to be diagnosed and treated because of the reality of the now by all those close to her and the medical profession.
Women have a 5-6 year life expectancy over men. I have no doubt that there is bias in healthcare but I highly doubt it is as simplistic as “doctors only care about men”. The majority of PhDs and MDs in science and medicine go to women these days and it is very unlikely this hasn’t decreased the bias. I highly doubt women doctors and PhDs leave school and then suddenly assume women are usually “hysterical” when they come in for treatment. There are certainly structural issues in healthcare and western society in general but it presents negatively in both genders in ways not always seen.
For instance, Men are less likely to go to the doctor until something is seriously wrong. They also overwhelmingly perform the most dangerous jobs and experience the most stress induced suicides. I already previously mentioned the longevity disparity and that is truly an advantage that even money can’t buy.
Lastly, Endometriosis is also a disease that is very hard to diagnose. I’ll bet men and women suffering from similar maladies (such as MS) experience similar journeys to get a proper diagnosis. I just don’t think it’s at all accurate or constructive to read this and lazily assume it’s caused by the “patriarchy” rather than really searching for ways to make things better while being willing to accept answers or solutions that contrast with your own preferred narrative.
I don't think it is about the patriarchy. It's more about the understanding that women are biologically different than men so studies on men do not always translate to women in terms of outcomes. Traditionally no one (public or private) wanted to do studies on women because they would have to account for their monthly cycles and hormone fluctuations.
No one is implying anything about patriarchy. We are merely asking you to look at some facts so that changes could be made. The article very clearly demonstrates that women are dismissed- dismissed- much of the time at first blush as being emotional about their health concerns, as did her own parents.
That is real and is most likely a legacy issue in medicine overall. Endometriosis has been around a very, very long time- my best friend suffered with it and was diagnosed in 1979- but it is also still continually missed, along with heart and stroke diagnoses. Women's bodies are more complex, yes, but the perspective and lens all doctors use to diagnose must continually improve.
There have been implications, for example - if men suffered from endometriosis there’d be a cure by now.
You yourself state that “men are way off base” and “ignorant” indicating this is a gender bias issue and there could be no other explanations. I’m fact, you chastise men for having an opinion that differs from you and state that they just need to listen because they can’t possibly understand how women are treated. This ignorant if not disingenuous. If men can’t understand what women experience then women can’t know what men experience and then we should even talk at all. I believe people can put themselves in other people’s shoes and think it’s a necessary starting point to having discussions that improve things. Additionally, I think many women would be surprised by men experiencing similar treatment they believed was unique to women.
Lastly, I believe we need to be careful in believing that your experience or that of a close friend or relative is what everyone of that same race, gender, religion etc receives. I have personally been dismissed about medical issues by both male and female doctors and have had those same issues correctly diagnosed by doctors of both genders. My mother was dismissed out of hand by her female doctor and it was a make doctor who then listened to her and found the cause of a chronic problem.
There is no doubt we can do better for diagnosing and treating primarily female health issues. However, I think a significant portion of the disparities can be blamed on 1) doctors being imperfect (insurance coverage incentives to see as many patients as possible, arrogance, time constraints, etc ) and needing better diagnostic tools, protocols and training in general. Abigail’s experience is heart wrenching but if you think there are thousands of uncounted men with undiagnosed medical issues causing them exhaustion, pain and low quality of life then you need to expand your willingness to accept differing ideas. Most men just suffer through those issues without ever going for treatment. This is not to minimize women’s medical issues but rather to preach caution about lazily assigning blame for a complex issue around a poorly understood disease.
"doctors being imperfect (insurance coverage incentives to see as many patients as possible"
I actually like seeing fewer patients & spending more time with them. Many docs do.
But thanks to Obamacare (ACA), private practices were forced to sell off to Big Hospital Chain monopolies & so now most docs are Employed by Hospitals. Also thanks to Obama, there are more & more Bureaucrats in Hospital Chains who tell doctors what to do. They dictate that we see more & more patients. They cut doctors salaries to enrich themselves & pay more to Administrators. They simply won't allow you to spend more time with patients. They treat us as assembly line machines.
Try this for bias. I have pelvic congestion syndrome which is essentially varicose veins in the pelvis. It's very painful. It's treated with a relatively minor surgery by an Interventional Radiologist. There is a lot of data to support the surgery's effectiveness. Men can have the same problem, but it's called a varicocele. It's very painful. It's treated with the exact same surgery. My insurance (UHC), won't cover the surgery for my condition but it's covered for men. Their reasoning is that it's "experimental" for women, but not for men for the exact same problem.
My insurance will however cover me taking GnRH agonists (aka puberty blockers) because they have shown a modest reduction in pain. The side effects listed are rather horrendous so it's only offered as a short term solution, but apparently they are fine for kids with healthy bodies experiencing Gender Dysphoria.
My SIL was diagnosed with endometriosis in the early 80’s after being married for 10 years and no pregnancy despite constant trying. According to the Mayo Clinic, a lot of women with this condition have no symptoms and are discovered when they come in with fertility problems. She had the excision surgery, which cured the endometriosis, but still couldn’t get pregnant, so they did IVF, but that didn’t work either. Ultimately they just reconciled themselves to being childless. Her husband didn’t want to adopt. He didn’t want a child that “wasn’t really his”.
I am a female doctor. I can’t countenance your attitude towards my male colleagues - mostly intelligent, conscientious and honest. Female doctors do not have a monopoly over these qualities.
I seem to recall that you "liked" my May 8 comment on Stanley Goldfarb's The Free Press article "How America's Obsession with DEI Is Sabotaging Our Medical Schools". In my comment I tried to analyze DEI ideology by conjuring up my inner (fake) "Woke" persona to see what it had to say.
Anyway, I was curious what it was about my post that inspired you to give it a like (yours is the only like I got for it). Since this is a bit off-topic, if you choose to reply perhaps you might do so to the original article at "https://www.thefp.com/p/how-americas-obsession-with-dei-is".
How the hell would we women know? Personally, I only know what it is like to be treated as a woman. I don't have personal experience being treated as a man. I can observe stories men tell me, but then, men can also observe stories women tell them. The notion that men can or can't tell whether women are experiencing bias is as reasonable or absurd as the notion that women can or can't tell that men are similarly treated. Though I do believe that doctors are less likely to take women's pain seriously, because men tend to be more reluctant to go to the doctor, so when they go, there is more likely something wrong with them. But, that said, I find it weird that people would expect doctors to be able to help them most of the time. Because they don't.
The difference is that the women here aren't telling the men they are wrong about their own experiences as men, but some of the men are doing just that to the women that are describing their own experiences. I think area of agreement is that the system sucks for all.
Thank you for putting it so well. The lack of critical thinking on this point is frustrating. Bias can’t be determined from personal experience. This issue was addressed humorously in a Curb Your Enthusiasm episode, where Larry David feels slighted by a waitress and determines that it’s because he’s bald. To him that’s how it seems. Not necessarily true though.
Some things men, without direct experience, should observe- contemplate - and then speak. Some of the usual commenters here- and I enjoy many of them- are quite defensive and demonstrating they are not listening and are as entrenched in their mindsets as those they oppose.
Women’s health is so undervalued. Im so sorry you went through this for so long, and I’m hoping you have found relief after diagnosis and treatment. If men ever suffered from endometriosis, a cure would have been found decades ago without any hesitation about coverage from insurance.
75% of RN, NP, PA, and MDs are female! Its not true that "womens health is so undervalued". Women account for roughly 82% of NP, 95% of RN, and mid to low 70% for PA. Women Docs make up 54% of total MD.
Additionally, to tell women the medicine "undervalues" is a self fulfilling prophecy.
Your point? Are you a woman? If not then move along. If you are and haven’t experienced any issues with doctors not taking your health concerns or pain seriously, then you’re lucky but your experience is not the norm.
Total nonsense
Why does a solution depend on men? The author points out that most OB/GYN specialists are women.
I would suggest that medical studies fail to include women because most people, including prospective subjects, are almost as leery of experimenting on women as they are about experimenting on children.
What a dumb comment.
If men suffered from endometriosis, it would never have been researched, would never be present in any medical textbook, the men who had it would receive no treatment and would be laughed out of the ER if they came in asking to be treated for their mysterious pain, and anyone who claimed it was real would be excluded from polite society.
As a woman in my 70s, I’ve never felt that my health was undervalued.
Whether my doctor was male or female, and I have had the good fortune of having both male and female doctors who have really appreciated my health and helped me.
You’re very fortunate. That hasn’t been my experience over the years particularly with reproductive and menopausal health. My mother has been brushed off as well as my daughter. We should all be as lucky as you and I’m saying that sincerely.
I wonder what makes me lucky?
Is it luck or is it because I have walked away from any doctor who I decided was bullshitting me?
Is it luck if I have carefully researched and chosen the doctors who I have worked with over the years?
I have been willing to pay extra for second opinions.
I have had had high expectations.
I am definitely lucky that I do not live in Canada.
The author's attempt at claiming "sexism" is self-beclowning. Her issue was not understood to be related to being female until it was diagnosed, which in her telling is when the "sexism" ended.
Meanwhile, she wraps herself in the cloak of "being female" when telling her story (instead of telling it honestly as a more general tale of doctors being skeptical of hard-to-diagnose symptoms) precisely because she understands that society is actually very sexist in women's favor, and so framing her story this way gets her more attention.
I don't get the sense the author claims sexism. Some commentators here have done so. But I don't see this some "gender wars" piece; simply telling her own story, and the specific issues she went through with this disease, which is easily misdiagnosed and only applies to women.
Wraps herself in the “cloak of being female “ are you joking? Let me explain this: every single month a woman with endometriosis suffers excruciating pain that can literally have you pass out on your front lawn from the pain. Every month. Do you believe if women had been writing medical journals they would have come up with the word “hysterectomy? Even that is patronizing. Like we are just so hysterical that we can’t stand a little pain. You have blood flowing through your rectum every month, no where no escape, building up with more blood every month, forming masses of endometrial tissue that pulsate with pain every month because the blood cannot flow out.
My snarky response is that from what I keep hearing there are no real differences between men and women. Its a social construct.
If that were true, wouldn’t there be a cure for prostate cancer? And the author specifically states that the majority of gynecologists are women. I also suffered from endometriosis for 30 years before I had surgery. There is no diagnostic tool other than surgery.
This is a nasty condition and I am glad the author received care as a young woman.
They were too busy focusing on ED and how to make sure Viagra was covered by insurance to address prostate cancer. I kid I kid…only a little.
Similar to how birth control is free. Such hyperbolic statements undermine your argument. Endometriosis is awful. After surgery, it comes back unless you agree to medical menopause. But it is not easily diagnosable. It took my female GYN years before she determined surgery was appropriate. This is not a female v. Male issue.
But the little pink pill is not. And birth control has only been free since Obama. Before that we all paid for it monthly. I happen to disagree with you, it absolutely is a gender issue, but just as I’m sure you’re not changing my mind, I don’t think I will change yours.
“If men ever suffered from endometriosis, a cure would have been found decades ago”
——————————————————-
Reading this baseless and nonsensical conspiracy theory you have presented caused me some pain that I imagine is comparable to endometriosis.
I dunno, Kevin. I’ve read a lot about medical history. I give a lot of credit and gratitude to the men of the Victorian era and early 20th century for their truly world-changing discoveries...but the field was ruled by and exclusive to men. Since most of us have some degree of gender bias, it is not illogical to conclude that it had its effects on these men as well. Clinicians aren’t always as clinical as they should be. It’s not even confined to the field of gynecology; studies have indicated that heart disease is often missed or misdiagnosed in women because they present with atypical symptoms vis-à-vis the guidelines--which were created based on presentation in men. Thus it’s not wildly implausible to think that if women had had a larger role in the development of the modern medical model, women’s health issues might not have so often been diagnosed and dismissed as hysteria.
And I am dismissing your argument because you seem hysterical.
😂😂🙏🙏
Lol!
I initially agreed with your premise that women are more likely to go to the doctor when something is wrong, but reassessed. Anecdotally, I have to be dragged kicking and screaming to the doctor’s office. My husband OTOH is super diligent about check-ups and is much more likely to see his doctor for a simple complaint. And generally, I would think that young moms, who are harried with jobs and child care and ferrying kids to after-school lessons and practices, may be less likely to go to the doctor simply due to lack of time.
I am not dismissive of anecdotes but in this case I think your situation is non-standard.
I’m pretty sure that, for evolutionary reasons, women are less sensitive to pain, which points in the direction of your argument. Also, men certainly get injured more but that’s not really relevant. It makes sense to me that women on average are more cautious and conscientious about health issues but maybe I’m wrong there. But there’s certainly plenty of money and prestige available in the women’s health sphere. Also there’s the thing about how companies charge more for women’s stuff which is an incentive maybe?
But I agree that women should focus more on cooking and cleaning instead of coming up with schemes where they get to meet handsome doctors.
😂😂🙏🙏
(sorry once I get going with the misogyny jokes it’s hard to stop)
All excellent points, including the desire to meet handsome doctors. 😉 I haven’t seen any studies on whether women are more likely to visit the doctor’s office than men, but now I’m intrigued.
(And I know we are atypical, as evidenced by the day that I was out in the garage, drinking beer and smoking cigarettes with the plumber, while the hubs was in the kitchen rolling out dough for homemade ravioli. 🤣)
I would maybe agree with you if there wasn’t a substantial rewards system in place that handsomely compensates medical advances regardless of the gender you are solving the problem for. And I believe women are more likely to seek medical attention (because guys are stubborn and irresponsible and stuff) so you actually probably get rewarded more for addressing/solving women’s medical issues, both financially and in terms of prestige.
Which aspect are you referring to?
I think a lot about our medical model. It’s so advanced and yet so broken. I don’t think socialized medicine is necessarily the answer, but the more advanced the technology becomes, the more expensive the care.
I know a doctor who has MS but manages it with lifestyle and is symptom-free. She lectures in medical schools about the importance of educating patients to exercise choice to avoid preventable diseases. We need a lot more of that, in my humble lay person’s opinion.
Part of the trouble here is that if a doctor tells a patient to live a healthy lifestyle and does not order a bunch of expensive tests or prescribe a controlled substance, many patients will complain that they are being ignored.
I think you nailed it. I also think this has lead to the state of modern medicine in the US - medical decisions determined by algorithm.
She manages it with a whole-food plant-based diet, good sleep hygiene and exercise. Look up Saray Stancic. She’s not running her wellness practice anymore, but her story is out there. She also made a documentary called Code Blue about the need to address wellness and disease prevention in medical education.
"whole-food plant-based diet, good sleep hygiene and exercise. "
Agree with everything here, except for plant-based. A lot of "plant-based" foods are full of artificial chemicals, like all the fake meats out there. I would argue that a whole-food, natural diet which includes grass-fed and pasture-raised meats/eggs is better than plant-based.
Which is why I specified "whole food plant-based." And this person who was crippled with MS, to the point of barely being able to walk unassisted and who now runs marathons, would strongly disagree with your opinion about the necessity of animal-based products. She is literal living proof that it works.
Isn't it the case that MS is a tricky illness whose course is often unpredictable, making it difficult to assign blame or credit for any given worsening or lessening of symptoms? So if your doctor acquaintance's "whole food plant-based" diet seems to help her, maybe it's because it actually does, or maybe it's just a coincidence. But it sounds like a stretch to claim that "She is literal living proof that it works". It would be interesting to see some studies in large populations that show the connection, if any, between diet and MS (and between diet and other illnesses as well).
There's already a study in a large population that shows a correlation between diet and some illnesses.
I'm not really interested in debating this; Steven asked me a question and I answered it in the hopes that it would help his friend.
Joe Biden has healed our nation’s soul and united our allies and he has cured most diseases and he has empathy and he returned the classified documents and is cooperating unlike Trump.
I disagree. It’s not because of gender bias. As Abigail points, 85% of gynaecologists are female. Women have more reproductive issues and illnesses than men. This makes diagnosis more difficult.
https://www.zippia.com/ob-gyn-jobs/demographics/#
You are right, Terrence. 85.4% are women.
It's the system and the insurers. Doctors won't perform what insurers won't reimburse them for. So even if 85% of OBGYNs are women, who makes the decisions at the insurer level on what treatments will be paid for?
That’s just not true Terence. 85% of gynaecologists are not women and pharmaceutical companies did not deem women important enough to use them for research. The only thing that works is to be your own advocate. Much easier to do in Canada because of our healthcare system, which allows us to see multiple doctors. Still, in the end women have to campaign on behalf of ourselves to get concrete answers
That statistic is from the article, with a link to back up the claim.
Your disagreeing doesn't make it untrue. Most pharmaceutical tests are still only done on men as default. The drugs are then released to the market as safe without ever being tested on women.
And don't even get me started on the massive gaslighting when women reported the Covid vaccine was impacting their periods. The Science (TM) told them the were imagining things. Move along.
> Most pharmaceutical tests are still only done on men as default. The drugs are then released to the market as safe without ever being tested on women.
I'm going to have to call you out on that one...
https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidance-documents/evaluation-gender-differences-clinical-investigations
https://www.fda.gov/science-research/womens-health-research/fda-research-policy-and-workshops-women-clinical-trials
https://www.fda.gov/science-research/womens-health-research/understanding-sex-differences-fda
https://www.fda.gov/about-fda/office-commissioner/office-womens-health
https://www.fda.gov/media/75648/download
Your links are to the FDA guidelines. They're not evidence the pharmaceutical companies and medical industry are actually following them. And after everything we've been reading here, you want me to believe everything the FDA says???? Seriously???
It's 2023. More women than men graduate with medical degrees (https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/workforce/data/figure-12-percentage-us-medical-school-graduates-sex-academic-years-1980-1981-through-2018-2019) The board of directors of Johnson & Johnson is 5/11 women (https://www.jnj.com/leadership/our-leadership-team). DEI is at an all-time high and is a *major* part of clinical trials at every level, from university to corporate. Medical malpractice and drug recalls are extraordinarily expensive. To imagine that "drugs are then released to the market as safe without ever being tested on women" happens today is ludicrous. This sounds like something that might have been true 75 years ago, but we've moved way beyond that.
If you have any sources to share, please do so -- if there are still studies being done on pharmaceuticals with such extremely biased test groups, that's a massive cause for concern.
The propaganda goal of having a COVID vaccine that objectively neither prevented infection or reduced the frequency of infection was more important than the truth.
That does not apply to endometriosis. Sounds like a lot of incompetence, in this case.
Medical incompetence should not be underrated. I visited several urologists about having a 25yo vasectomy reversed. Several told me that extracting viable sperm without reversing the whole thing was impossible. Then I saw a competent specialist (a woman) who promptly did what was deemed impossible by a bunch of men.
Also consider that the art of medicine, being able to listen to a patient, take the time to ask the right questions to elicit a proper history, then perform an adequate, directed physical examination, and put all that data together to formulate a differential diagnosis, has all but disappeared from medical education. Nowadays if a disease does not reveal itself via blood tests, CT or MRI scan, the diagnosis may well be missed.
Dr. Martin, thank you for your comment. I am forwarding the article to a friend who is currently beginning his second year in medical school and intends to focus on family medicine with an interest in serving in more rural areas. He has already discovered the value of “listening” as an essential component of building trust between physician and patient where this trust is absolutely required in order to elicit from the patient a full and accurate understanding of not only their physical state but the environment in which they are living and in which any plan for “healing” must take place. I personally want to support him in his efforts to develop his appreciation for and perseverance in developing a similar skill along with solid medical knowledge and experience. Your words of wisdom reinforce this.
As an old timey doctor I couldn't agree more.
I had a good female neurology resident. Her organization quit taking my insurance, so I got an experienced male neurologist, who kept me on steroids too long, resulting in neuropathy in both legs that adversely affected my gait. I know I can't generalize from this experience, but I certainly would never hesitate to see a woman physician.
True that. I saw a female NP in the instacare for symptoms of a UTI (blood, burning, etc). She had all my history with cancer treatment. Tests came back negative and she legit sighed like I was making shit up. Told me that possibly I didn’t know what a UTI felt like (I do!). Went to my male radiologist the next day for a follow up and he immediately realized I was probably having inflammation from my cancer treatment and expressed his frustration that she hadn’t prescribed me the pain meds for UTI since they would still help. He prescribed them and told me to just let him know if I needed more. Sure enough, symptoms ended when treatment ended. Some medical professionals are really good at thinking outside the box, some seem very intent on moving bodies through their schedules and if your tests are negative their brains shut down.
The NPs I work with are great & always ask us docs for help w/ anything complicated (outside of pt's earshot).
BUT: There is the right time/place for NPs. NPs have far less knowledge/experience (500 hrs clinical training vs >20,000). This often leads to patient deaths.
https://www.newsnationnow.com/investigation/transparencyinhealthcare/
If you have a straightforward medical problem, then by all means, NP is fine. However, if you have an emergency, in the ER, request a physician in the ED. If you have something somewhat complicated, see a physician.
If you have something very complicated, do not see a private practice doc or NP. You need to go to an Academic Medical Center with a teaching program (residency or fellowship). They will spend a lot of time with you, they are not financially incentivized at all & they will get to the bottom of what is going on. They will figure it out & they will help you.
Yep, learned my lesson there. I have other NPs and PAs that I love but they only work during the weeks so any weekend need is always a toss up. I agree that an academic medical center is the best, that is where are my cancer drs are and my oncologist did more to research my possible treatment than the MD Anderson dr I saw. But that is probably due to ego associated with working at a top medical center than anything else 🤷♀️.
I have high respect for medical profession and doctors ~ I come from two generations of doctors, my grandfather and both my parents were doctors. Granted they were “old type” doctors with different ethics. I could never imagine my mother saying “ it is all in your head” to a patient. She was an excellent diagnostician, and people seeked her advice when nobody else had an answer. She could really think “out of the box” and never relied as much on tests as they do now, but on her knowledge and research.
I don’t think male doctors are prejudiced. I hope not. However, this is what happened to me a few years go. Come to your own conclusion. I almost never have headaches. Until one day my head was throbbing, and a sharp pain in the side of my head returned every 30 seconds. I went to an urgent care. Two very thoughtful and attentive doctors talked to me and prescribed a strong painkiller. It didn’t do a thing. The next day I called my family doctor, and she recommended I go to an ER immediately. I went to a hospital a few blocks from me. I live in NYC, and it is a good teaching hospital. A very respectably-looking male attending doctor in his 50s with a flock of medical students around him told me that he did not believe me I had a severe headache because I looked good and because my pupils looked normal. I could not believe it. He also pointed to the medication they had given me in the urgent care and said I was lying that I had never had headache since I had the painkiller. When I showed him the date on the bottle, which was the day before, he shut up but did not apologize. I am sure he wanted to catch me in a lie. They gave me MRI, which did not show any abnormalities. Because I insisted I continued to have pain, they finally gave me an IV, and the pain went completely away. When my family doctor called in the evening to check on me, she said she thought I was having a stroke. I don’t know what this episode was, as I am sure ER doctors see all kind of walk-ins. But when I look back, I think “you look good and cannot have that much pain” was a chauvinistic remark and still feel insulted by it.
There are physiological S/S of pain. Tachycardia, Hypertension, vomiting and when you ask the pt what is there pain level they tell its a 10/10 while the text on their phone. So looking at a pt's behavior can help confirm pain or not.
Of course. I am not an idiot. Taking vitals is important as is asking simple questions. But they do not always paint the whole picture. Empathy and an ability to listen to the patient may help when the situation is not as straightforward as in a medical textbook. This is used to be at the heart of the medical profession. And that’s the whole point of this discussion. Do you think telling a patient you look good and your pupils are not enlarged so I do not believe you experience any pain is appropriate? And in front of a group of students. That’s what they will learn.
For medical malpractice (or negligence) one has to satisfy 3 conditions:
1) there has to be an injury or bad outcome
2) the 'proximate cause' of such injury has to be something the practitioner did (or failed to do)
3) it must be proven that the practitioner deviated from the standard of care, defined as what a similar practitioner would do in the same circumstance and which is demonstrated to be the "standard of care" by commonly accepted practice or - even better - by consensus guidelines for managing that particular condition set by the standard-setting organization for that medical specialty.
In the above case as told by Just an observer, these definitions were not met, ergo no "appalling medical malpractice." Just because someone was not treated empathetically, or the interaction felt rude or disrespectful or the patient felt their medical symptom(s) were not taken seriously, does not constitute malpractice.
Some of those responses don't even sound like they were generated by a medical school educated mind. I have had both good and bad experiences with both make and female doctors. There likely are some sex differences, but those have not been what made the salient difference in my personal experience.
I don't really blame the practitioners overall, but rather the system. That said, bias against women does exist. I've had women doctors apologize for not being able to figure out what was going with me, but they don't blame me for it.
My experience with male doctors is totally different in that they blame the patient rather than admit ignorance.
Male doc #1: Said my abdominal pain was depression.
Male doc #2: Said my bladder pain was caused by "fear of pregnancy."
Male doc #3: Said I wouldn't be able tell the difference between between gynecologic pain and bladder pain.
Male doc #4: I had a two week long severe sore throat and illness two years ago.
I suspected I had mono. Doc prescribed antibiotics and refused to test for mono after I requested it. Went to another male PA, he tried to insist I had strep despite negative swabs, but agreed to test for mono after I begged for it. Turns out I was right and had mono and got a proper prescription to help.
I could go on...
I don't go to male doctors anymore.
My wife has been through some weird medical things over the past few years (early 30s). We’ve also had 2 kids in that time, so we’ve been to a lot of doctors m, PAs, and PTs across several different disciplines. The only negative experiences have been with an ER doc (well, and the impatient a-hole that gave her a misplaced epidural in June, nearly killing her and our daughter, but that’s a different story).
I suspect that some of the issues with unsympathetic drs is where they went to school, but I mostly think it’s an ER issue. Emergency medicine is a joke (though there are good practitioners), and a lot of the reason why is that many family practices won’t see anyone when they actually have problems. Thus the ER doc that is at the end of a 24 or 48 hour shift isn’t in the mood to actually do any work. It’s just a bad setup.
I’ve found DOs to be way better listeners than MDs too. Also, where we live, the corporate, for profit hospital is awful. We are lucky to be with the smaller, non-profit hospital on our insurance, and they are way better, actually wanting to help.
Anyway, long post to say that the medical system sucks, and it doesn’t have to.
I'm a female physician and I work in a practice with both male & female doctors. Our styles are totally different. I would say that most women doctors are better listeners & spend more time listening to the patient. Studies back this up. We are more likely to admit if we are wrong & not ashamed to admit we don't know everything. I'm not bashing male doctors at all and they are excellent, skilled, knowledgable and great doctors. The style is just different.
I should also mention that the male doctors I work with are kind, not at all sexist, and do their best to be understanding of women's needs. They offered me great support during my pregnancies, maternity leaves, breastfeeding and pumping, etc.
Women doctors are better listeners and are more concerned with fixing the patient than treating them. I am a senior man so it’s not coming from any bias against men.
You’re being kind saying it’s style differences. One can be taught to listen and ask questions better in order to do their job. And can learn not to blame a patient. Thank you for lending to the convo, truly. May you’re great style rub off on your peers!
I had an ob/gyn tell me during a high risk pregnancy that he “couldn’t treat a problem that exists only in my head”. The very next day, I went to the ER and was admitted for 7 days of IV antibiotics. He never apologized.
Almost all of my current doctors are female. Younger male doctors (Gen X e.g.) are much less arrogant, in my opinion, than the older ones were.
Let's take this as being true. Let's say it's an awful experience. Let's say it happens with some regularity.
But let's also take into account all the people who get antibiotics for infections they don't have. Let's consider the people who got opioids for pain that they didn't need and then went on to become addicted and maybe die. Let's consider that American healthcare is the most expensive in the world, in no small part because of all the unnecessary tests and treatments that we do.
Even giving full weight to the ugly cases where patients' concerns are incorrectly dismissed, America has more of a problem with too much medicine than too little.
19th century diagnoses of female hysteria is alive and well in the male medical profession. Not all male doctors but enough to give us all pause.
Total lie... You are 50 years out of date.
Thank your Sam for your kind words.
This will sound old-fashioned, but listen: women's bodies -- at least the reproductive part -- are perceived as more complicated (they are) and mysterious (they shouldn't be) than the male counterpart.
Then again, look at how far beyond usual doctor training is (still) on nutrition, diet, weight, and how it's all related to metabolism, diabetes, and inflammation. Only in the last few years or so have I seen any conventionally trained medical types start to really wake up to it. COVID certainly played a role -- a friend whose sister is a nurse in NYC said the first year of COVID in the ER was, "really old people" and "really big people." No healthy 30 or 50-year-olds. Focused work on the vulnerable was hysterically (sorry) rejected for two+ years.
"a friend whose sister is a nurse in NYC said the first year of COVID in the ER was, "really old people" and "really big people." No healthy 30 or 50-year-olds. "
You're right! And that's how I knew, right away, that it was a lab leak. When Fauci & company were censoring the lab leak theory, saying it was a natural virus, I knew that they were lying to the public. I knew it was a man-made virus.
Because COVID overwhelmingly targets the elderly & the obese. No natural virus does that. There is no other virus that targets obese people. When I saw that, I knew this was un-natural.
True. I'm not a virologist or biologist. But natural viruses have a variability and crapshoot nature in their impact. Artificial viruses like COVID have been engineered to target *one* thing; in this case, human lung cell receptors. The effect is greatly enhanced in the presence of chronic inflammation. Certainly the metabolic-obesity-diabetes complex fits that. I believe the lungs of older folks do as well, but I'm not sure.
One another striking thing I remember from COVID was the lower importance of respiratory function and the greater importance of the inflammation vis-a-vis the kidneys. Many who had respiratory crises with COVID actually ended up dying from kidney failure because of the intense immune/inflammatory response. My friend's sister also noticed that over the months in 2020: they didn't need respirators so much as dialysis machines -- another indicator of the artificial nature of SARS-CoV-2.
yes exactly
And, having read your post, I cannot begin to tell you how much we appreciate it.
Ha ha.
I’ve had only male doctor I can remember who listened to me and was a true partner in my health care. In my experience, most other male doctors I’ve seen have been dismissive and downright condescending. So yeah, I too now see exclusively female doctors.
it is not a male female thing but a problem with many Doctors it is called attitude . The best Docs do one thing well , they listen
Even female doctors have sometimes had their souls sucked out by medical school. Thinking in particular of the female doctor who didn't refer me to a rheumatologist for my symptoms (ended up being fibromyalgia) until AFTER I had cussed at her nurse on the phone for offering me pain pills (at the doctor's direction) instead of some path to diagnosis.
I have found that Nurse Practitioners are usually far better than the doctors they practice under. Most of them are female, which helps.
The NPs I work with are great & always ask us docs for help w/ anything complicated (outside of pt's earshot).
BUT: There is the right time/place for NPs. NPs have far less knowledge/experience (500 hrs clinical training vs >20,000). This often leads to patient deaths.
You need to watch this:
https://www.newsnationnow.com/investigation/transparencyinhealthcare/
If you have a straightforward medical problem, then by all means, NP is fine. However, if you have an emergency, in the ER, request a physician in the ED. If you have something somewhat complicated, see a physician.
If you have something very complicated, do not see a private practice doc or NP. You need to go to an Academic Medical Center with a teaching program (residency or fellowship). They will spend a lot of time with you, they are not financially incentivized at all & they will get to the bottom of what is going on. They will figure it out & they will help you.
Good advertising
Well NP's were RN's first and as an RN you are trained to be pt advocate. Additionally, I spent 5 years as a bedside RN in an ER. That was very valuable expertness. You are right than in an ER NP do booboos. Suturing, I&D... time consuming procedures and the Docs take care of the sick patients.
I do palliative care now for home bound pts, TBI, CVA, hypoxic events some are very complex and I have referred patients out to the "teaching hospitals" and to be honest they are not all that good.
I agree that all medical levels are need but to say go to these teaching hospitals and they will fix you is disingenuous at best.
NPs take more time to listen as well, at least in my experience.
That is key, because too many doctors do NOT listen. For whatever reason--training, arrogance, attitude--doctors seem less interested in viewing patients as people rather than as problems to be solved.
I agree. Nurse Practitioners are great!
When will medical school teach that a dismissal of a patient because standard tests can't diagnose opens a new universe of possibilities to explore? It seems this learned in practice not school.
"Dismisal" of a patient is not an appropriate outcome.
But it is important to realize that most physicians regularly see lots of patients who say or think that they have some serious physical illness that they do not actually have.
A responsible physician has to consider non-obvious medical diagnoses, but psychosomatic illness, hypochondria, malingering and factitious disorders, and plain old idiopathic illness (medical speak for we don't know what's going on) are always on the list.
I've done a lot more than Google it. Those links don't contain any useful information.
Doctors are wrong for a variety of reasons. "Pervasive gender bias against women" is not one of them.
No, you've got that backwards. You're the one making the assertion (about pervasive gender bias) and I'm employing good old Hitchens' Razor: that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
I don't need to be an expert in anything or provide any support for anything. I'm just calling BS. You're welcome to try to convince any readers of your rather extreme position using appropriately strong evidence, if you've got any.
You mean like in good old days? When doctors had to use their heads and broad knowledge?
Forget about male/female doctors, what count is good medical practice.
Good medical practice has been extinguished by a bureaucratic and technology-based system. It's a terrible loss.
Due to the ACA (Obamacare). In order for Obamacare to pass Congress, Obama had to get Congress to sign off. Therefore, lobbyists who pay congress had to sign off. Lobbyists who work for Big Pharma, Big Insurance & Big Hospital Chains.
Obamacare caused many bad things. 1) Much increased paperwork, bureaucracy, excessive clicking on computers that wastes time, less time spent with patients & more time spent on endless clicking 2) Hiring lots of administrators to do all this paperwork which increases health care costs 3) Private practices are forced to sell to Big Hospital Chain monopolies which increases costs, forces docs to see more patients in less time 4) Patient satisfaction scoring, which increases patient morbidity & mortality & opioid crisis
I have found that female doctors relate to women’s issues especially gynecological ones very differently than male doctors. Particularly when first making a diagnosis. Specialists are a whole different story but if you need to have a referral, you have to get past that first hurdle.
Medicine is not an art. You just need to follow the guidance produced by the Supreme Federal Democracy Government or you will have your license taken away. Trust the science!!!
Insert <snark></snark> from SML (Snark Markup Language).
Trust the same science thats telling us that women can have penis or men can have a vagina?
I'm surprised I didn't see a reference to it in the article...
Sarcasm is inappropriate here.
I believe that it is appropriate.
No its not....we live in a world were people think a man can become a woman. Insanity
Way to go Bill. Let's censor opposing opinions.
It is in fact completely appropriate.
Not the way it was expressed. This was a heartfelt first person report by a woman barely out of her teens. Comments should address her story and concerns. Somethings are too important to be simplified to partisanship. Otherwise I enjoy your comments.
KD? did not in any way diminish the young woman. He just provided insight into the why and how. Something she herself pondered when she said it is more than just patriarchy.
His answer to everything is hurr durr the government!
This is an article about endometriosis and he still ties it back to communism somehow, like wtf. Stale.
Communism? You're the one mentioning communism.
His comment in the main thread is about democrats and voting and communism
I believe Kev was speaking to the strangle hold the Dems/Socs have on all aspects of our lives especially the medical profession.
The Democrat Party is running towards communism as fast as it can. They embrace Bernie Sanders, a hard core communist. Instead of castigating him they made him a senate committee chairman.
AOC and her squad are communists. They belong to the DSA. The DSA is a lie. There never has and never will be a democratic socialist government. It is a communist front.
Bernie the multi millionaire commy such a joke
I don’t disagree, but sir, this is an article about endometriosis.
You'll have to form your own judgment, but my interactions with LP suggest he's a troll who has very little interest in whatever issue is at hand. He's simply here to make a public nuisance of himself.
Well, let's see. Ever since he was elected to the Senate and caucused with the Democrats. The Dems/Socs made him the chairman of the Senate Budget Committee. I believe that qualifies as embracing.
I cannot understand how anyone can be a communist. The Communists slaughter more people in the last century than the NAZIs did. This slaughter was not war related. It was the murder of their own citizens. Stalin would send out orders to his commissars to "Kill 5,00 enemies of the state." and they would round up people at random and execute them.
Read the biography "Stalin".
In the last two years, the medical care was extremely politicized. The treatment options for COVID were prescribed by the government, and those who did not follow, lost licenses and were ostracized. These is a connection, unfortunately. I do see a reason for his sarcasm.
Sure but he would make a chocolate chip cookie recipe about politics.
And one cannot a priori deem it inappropriate to do so. Particularly if there's a gas stove involved. Or butter. Or tree nuts. Or...
Huh?
I’m not sure that’s sarcasm.
Kevin’s about sarcasm, just like Com Prof is all sophistry.
‘Trust the science’ is obviously sarcasm. It’s also not the point Kevin was making. To me, on many fronts the government is stating what accepted science is and trying to silence, punish or marginalize dissent. To suggest this may be true in women’s health is a concern with some merit and not sarcasm.
I’m fairly new here. I sense Kevin is a provocateur. On this comment I’m in agreement with his sentiments.
Further, if we’re going to dismiss comments with sarcasm, right or wrong, I see that as code for ‘Mickel your input is not wanted here’.
Cheers
Lol. 100 perecent innacurate, but it does feel good to say, doesn't it.
Now, I'm so glad that you've draw the line with Kevin Durant when it comes to the medical travails of young, white women.
it is always about colour , right Huggy Bear , yes i saw your pic
1. That's not Huggy Bear, dummy.
2. "Every accusation is an admission "
3. I had you pegged ALL wrong. ;)
Very good I was wondering who that was, so com prof self identifies as a pimp. I’m not surprised.
That's not Huggy Bear, dummy.
I hope that if there are women in your life who you care about and are suffering from this awful condition, that you won’t slip and call them Karen by mistake (unless of course that’s their name).
https://rsphealth.org/endometriosis/
“ Endometriosis is also among the leading causes of infertility in Black women (NIH, DHHS, CDC, NIAID).”
"Leading cause" is not the same as aggregate/total numbers.
Nah. My "Karen" calls have been 100% so far.
Nope. Don't know anyone suffering from this condition.
The article was woke nonsense.
I found it an appropriate response to a dozen or more missed diagnoses of the nuclear-level pain she was experiencing. Why do you think the story woke nonsense?
I'm pretty sure women of all colors have had this issue. It's not a white girl thing, it's a girl thing.
Ah, Noah....you must be new to the Free Press discussion board.
Don't bother replying to Compote. It is a racist, ignorant troll.
I find Comprof neither racist, ignorant, nor a troll. He says things that most of the board doesn't like, which is not the same thing.
Lol. Have never used one racist slur against white people on here, ever.
Strange how all the predictions of an "ignorant troll" have come to pass.
Compost.
Stereotype of what?
Perfect response 👏
Relying to myself - woren’s health complaints are ignored and dismissed all the time. Undervalued was probably not the correct word.
Agree. The men above are way off base here. And, even ignorant. Women are very often misdiagnosed and dismissed as emotional about health issues. It’s a statistical fact in the overall misdiagnosis of 40000-80000 people a year.
“Women are more likely to wait longer for a health diagnosis and to be told it’s ‘all in their heads’. That can be lethal: diagnostic errors cause 40,000-80,000 deaths in the US alone.”
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20180523-how-gender-bias-affects-your-healthcare
Heart attack is the number one killer of women but often dismissed at the crucial beginning stages of heart disease because of psychology and emotion and the intricacies of women’s bodies (as the child bearers of all humanity) in those diagnoses.
As a man, I probably shouldn't weigh in, but ... A large part of the problem in diagnosing women's heart attacks is that the symptoms are different between the sexes. A similar situation exists in men's breast cancers.
And while it is well-established that there HAS been gender bias, that is gradually shifting/changing as more and more women are becoming doctors. When you consider that our institutions of higher education are 60/40 women to men, and the rate of older doctors (mostly men) leaving the profession is spiking, we will have a preponderance of female doctors in the not-too-distant future. Yes, there will still be some male doctor/female patient bias but now we'll also have significant female doctor/male patient bias to "balance" it.
Let's face it - doctors are human. Like all people, some good, some bad; some caring and some just in it for the money. As best I can tell, neither sex has a monopoly on either type.
I think eventually things will become more equal...equally bad.
They said, "Cheer up! It could be worse." I cheered up and - sure enough - it got worse.
Of course you should weigh in, and of course, we do agree, but the reality of the now- and of the past- is that it is clear that many women face this issue, and it is life threatening and life altering, that it shouldn't have taken this woman that long to be diagnosed and treated because of the reality of the now by all those close to her and the medical profession.
I think we're in violent agreement.
Interesting term "violent agreement". Possibly another legacy issue.
Thank you for being a very clear and obvious example of dismissive and condescension. Are you a doctor?
So no one can add their thoughts without your castigation? Cut it out.
Women have a 5-6 year life expectancy over men. I have no doubt that there is bias in healthcare but I highly doubt it is as simplistic as “doctors only care about men”. The majority of PhDs and MDs in science and medicine go to women these days and it is very unlikely this hasn’t decreased the bias. I highly doubt women doctors and PhDs leave school and then suddenly assume women are usually “hysterical” when they come in for treatment. There are certainly structural issues in healthcare and western society in general but it presents negatively in both genders in ways not always seen.
For instance, Men are less likely to go to the doctor until something is seriously wrong. They also overwhelmingly perform the most dangerous jobs and experience the most stress induced suicides. I already previously mentioned the longevity disparity and that is truly an advantage that even money can’t buy.
Lastly, Endometriosis is also a disease that is very hard to diagnose. I’ll bet men and women suffering from similar maladies (such as MS) experience similar journeys to get a proper diagnosis. I just don’t think it’s at all accurate or constructive to read this and lazily assume it’s caused by the “patriarchy” rather than really searching for ways to make things better while being willing to accept answers or solutions that contrast with your own preferred narrative.
I don't think it is about the patriarchy. It's more about the understanding that women are biologically different than men so studies on men do not always translate to women in terms of outcomes. Traditionally no one (public or private) wanted to do studies on women because they would have to account for their monthly cycles and hormone fluctuations.
No one is implying anything about patriarchy. We are merely asking you to look at some facts so that changes could be made. The article very clearly demonstrates that women are dismissed- dismissed- much of the time at first blush as being emotional about their health concerns, as did her own parents.
That is real and is most likely a legacy issue in medicine overall. Endometriosis has been around a very, very long time- my best friend suffered with it and was diagnosed in 1979- but it is also still continually missed, along with heart and stroke diagnoses. Women's bodies are more complex, yes, but the perspective and lens all doctors use to diagnose must continually improve.
Women do not have more complex bodies than men.
There have been implications, for example - if men suffered from endometriosis there’d be a cure by now.
You yourself state that “men are way off base” and “ignorant” indicating this is a gender bias issue and there could be no other explanations. I’m fact, you chastise men for having an opinion that differs from you and state that they just need to listen because they can’t possibly understand how women are treated. This ignorant if not disingenuous. If men can’t understand what women experience then women can’t know what men experience and then we should even talk at all. I believe people can put themselves in other people’s shoes and think it’s a necessary starting point to having discussions that improve things. Additionally, I think many women would be surprised by men experiencing similar treatment they believed was unique to women.
Lastly, I believe we need to be careful in believing that your experience or that of a close friend or relative is what everyone of that same race, gender, religion etc receives. I have personally been dismissed about medical issues by both male and female doctors and have had those same issues correctly diagnosed by doctors of both genders. My mother was dismissed out of hand by her female doctor and it was a make doctor who then listened to her and found the cause of a chronic problem.
There is no doubt we can do better for diagnosing and treating primarily female health issues. However, I think a significant portion of the disparities can be blamed on 1) doctors being imperfect (insurance coverage incentives to see as many patients as possible, arrogance, time constraints, etc ) and needing better diagnostic tools, protocols and training in general. Abigail’s experience is heart wrenching but if you think there are thousands of uncounted men with undiagnosed medical issues causing them exhaustion, pain and low quality of life then you need to expand your willingness to accept differing ideas. Most men just suffer through those issues without ever going for treatment. This is not to minimize women’s medical issues but rather to preach caution about lazily assigning blame for a complex issue around a poorly understood disease.
"doctors being imperfect (insurance coverage incentives to see as many patients as possible"
I actually like seeing fewer patients & spending more time with them. Many docs do.
But thanks to Obamacare (ACA), private practices were forced to sell off to Big Hospital Chain monopolies & so now most docs are Employed by Hospitals. Also thanks to Obama, there are more & more Bureaucrats in Hospital Chains who tell doctors what to do. They dictate that we see more & more patients. They cut doctors salaries to enrich themselves & pay more to Administrators. They simply won't allow you to spend more time with patients. They treat us as assembly line machines.
Try this for bias. I have pelvic congestion syndrome which is essentially varicose veins in the pelvis. It's very painful. It's treated with a relatively minor surgery by an Interventional Radiologist. There is a lot of data to support the surgery's effectiveness. Men can have the same problem, but it's called a varicocele. It's very painful. It's treated with the exact same surgery. My insurance (UHC), won't cover the surgery for my condition but it's covered for men. Their reasoning is that it's "experimental" for women, but not for men for the exact same problem.
My insurance will however cover me taking GnRH agonists (aka puberty blockers) because they have shown a modest reduction in pain. The side effects listed are rather horrendous so it's only offered as a short term solution, but apparently they are fine for kids with healthy bodies experiencing Gender Dysphoria.
That is what happens when we rely on insurance companies and give them.the power over our medical decisions.
Yup
https://fixpriorauth.org/
Thank you.
Reread me. I didn’t imply any of those things. You read into them all in your perspective. You’re off base because that tunnel vision.
My SIL was diagnosed with endometriosis in the early 80’s after being married for 10 years and no pregnancy despite constant trying. According to the Mayo Clinic, a lot of women with this condition have no symptoms and are discovered when they come in with fertility problems. She had the excision surgery, which cured the endometriosis, but still couldn’t get pregnant, so they did IVF, but that didn’t work either. Ultimately they just reconciled themselves to being childless. Her husband didn’t want to adopt. He didn’t want a child that “wasn’t really his”.
Same for my friend.
It's ridiculous that men are telling women they aren't experiencing bias in healthcare. How the hell would they know???
I am a female doctor. I can’t countenance your attitude towards my male colleagues - mostly intelligent, conscientious and honest. Female doctors do not have a monopoly over these qualities.
Hi Vivien,
I seem to recall that you "liked" my May 8 comment on Stanley Goldfarb's The Free Press article "How America's Obsession with DEI Is Sabotaging Our Medical Schools". In my comment I tried to analyze DEI ideology by conjuring up my inner (fake) "Woke" persona to see what it had to say.
Anyway, I was curious what it was about my post that inspired you to give it a like (yours is the only like I got for it). Since this is a bit off-topic, if you choose to reply perhaps you might do so to the original article at "https://www.thefp.com/p/how-americas-obsession-with-dei-is".
How the hell would we women know? Personally, I only know what it is like to be treated as a woman. I don't have personal experience being treated as a man. I can observe stories men tell me, but then, men can also observe stories women tell them. The notion that men can or can't tell whether women are experiencing bias is as reasonable or absurd as the notion that women can or can't tell that men are similarly treated. Though I do believe that doctors are less likely to take women's pain seriously, because men tend to be more reluctant to go to the doctor, so when they go, there is more likely something wrong with them. But, that said, I find it weird that people would expect doctors to be able to help them most of the time. Because they don't.
The difference is that the women here aren't telling the men they are wrong about their own experiences as men, but some of the men are doing just that to the women that are describing their own experiences. I think area of agreement is that the system sucks for all.
Thank you for putting it so well. The lack of critical thinking on this point is frustrating. Bias can’t be determined from personal experience. This issue was addressed humorously in a Curb Your Enthusiasm episode, where Larry David feels slighted by a waitress and determines that it’s because he’s bald. To him that’s how it seems. Not necessarily true though.
Some things men, without direct experience, should observe- contemplate - and then speak. Some of the usual commenters here- and I enjoy many of them- are quite defensive and demonstrating they are not listening and are as entrenched in their mindsets as those they oppose.